cbuffalino 0 #1 September 6, 2012 So I just got my first rig (BEER) and I've had to replace rubber bands on my D-Bag a few times already and was wondering: Why do we use rubber bands? It seems there are more durable materials such as elastic (think like a girl's hair tie) or bungee that could serve the same purpose and probably break less frequently. Has anyone every tried anything like this or can anybody provide any insight as to how this would work out?Never give up on something you can't go a day without thinking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #2 September 6, 2012 search on the terms - tube stows and tube stoes, you will find all the discussion you need, especially those comments by me. People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wayneflorida 0 #3 September 6, 2012 Because Walmart has a good supply of rubber bands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,368 #4 September 6, 2012 Because if we didn't use them on the rigs, how would we keep our flip-flops on? They work and they're cheap. I have a box of each at home and keep a good sized ziplock bag of big and small combined in my gearbag. There's an argument that they will break easily enough that they are less likely to cause a baglock, but there's a cretain amount of debate on that. If you want something you don't have to replace as often, goe with Tube Stoes (or something similar). And FWIW, Strong Dual Hawk tandems use shock cord (thin bungee cord) for the locking stows on the bag. "There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GLIDEANGLE 1 #5 September 6, 2012 Many (most? all?) reserve free bags have NO rubber bands... using a loop made from shock cord.The choices we make have consequences, for us & for others! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydiverek 60 #6 September 6, 2012 QuoteWhy do we use rubber bands? It seems there are more durable materials such as elastic (think like a girl's hair tie) or bungee that could serve the same purpose and probably break less frequently. Rubber Bands Break for a Reason: http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=Rubberbands&SortBy=DATE_D Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diablopilot 2 #7 September 6, 2012 More specifically "Mil Spec" rubber bands. They break when you need them to, rather than cause a bag lock. A Freebag does use a bungie stow, but it's not connected to the bag at all there for it pulls free if needed.---------------------------------------------- You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RMK 3 #8 September 6, 2012 I've never used rubber bands, I like Tube Stoes much better: http://www.chutingstar.com/newgear_en/tube-stoes.html "Pain is the best instructor, but no one wants to attend his classes" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #9 September 6, 2012 QuoteQuoteWhy do we use rubber bands? It seems there are more durable materials such as elastic (think like a girl's hair tie) or bungee that could serve the same purpose and probably break less frequently. Rubber Bands Break for a Reason: http://www.jumpshack.com/default.asp?CategoryID=TECH&PageID=Rubberbands&SortBy=DATE_D It is definitely true that mil spec rubber bands break. They are so prone to break that Mr. Sherman doesn't trust just 2, 3, or even 4 of them to keep his reserve speed bag closed, so why should we trust 2 rubber bands to hold the main canopy in the bag? Rubber bands are prone to breaking when you want them to, and when you don't want them to - when there is the most stress on the locking stows, as the bag is being lifted. From Mr. Sherman's article: QuoteIf you haven’t had a bag lock due to one of these “unbreakable” stow bands – you probably will. I think that is wrong, and in any case is very much dependent on an individual's care during packing. It would be more correct to say that if you haven't had a bag strip/canopy dump due to rubber band locking stows breaking prematurely you probably will. I'll trade the very unlikely bag lock for the prevention of bag strip.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
excaza 1 #10 September 7, 2012 Since others have hit on the reasons for retainer bands, I'll ask another question: how's your packing? When I first started my packjobs, they were HUGE (not that I've improved much yet ) and I was fighting a lot of fabric to get the bag closed. While I was helping a friend with his packing at last weekend's boogie, a sympathetic PD rep showed us a couple tricks for getting everything under control once it was in the bag, and the best tip I got was to try and bring the grommet to the retainer band for the closing loops, not the other way around. Stretching the band that far stresses it quite a bit, and will cause it to break much sooner than usual. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jono 0 #11 September 7, 2012 Well depending on the make of container you have, you can get a stowless bag that uses tuck flaps instead of bands and never have a broken band again but you may just be using the wrong size bands. I use to break a band just about every jump until my rigger gave me some different size bands to use depending on how far down the line set I was trying to stow. Probably break one now every 6-10 jumps.Remember you don't stop laughing because you grow old, you grow old because you stop laughing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #12 September 7, 2012 QuoteMany (most? all?) reserve free bags have NO rubber bands... using a loop made from shock cord. Many round reserve canopies have diapers that use 2-3 rubber bands (elastic retaining bands). They generally have line stows in the container which are rubber bands as well. Also, the Racer Speedbag has nothing but rubber bands for the stows, no 'safety stow' and no line stow pocket that are common to other rigs."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
theonlyski 3 #13 September 7, 2012 QuoteWell depending on the make of container you have, you can get a stowless bag that uses tuck flaps instead of bands and never have a broken band again but you may just be using the wrong size bands. I use to break a band just about every jump until my rigger gave me some different size bands to use depending on how far down the line set I was trying to stow. Probably break one now every 6-10 jumps. There are a couple of manufacturers that will make a bag that will fit just about any rig out there. FWIW, I have a UPT stowless bag and in over 200 jumps on it, I've replaced the bands less than 10 times."I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890 I'm an asshole, and I approve this message Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #14 September 7, 2012 QuoteThey are so prone to break that Mr. Sherman doesn't trust just 2, 3, or even 4 of them to keep his reserve speed bag closed, so why should we trust 2 rubber bands to hold the main canopy in the bag? Rubber bands are prone to breaking when you want them to, and when you don't want them to - when there is the most stress on the locking stows, as the bag is being lifted. Rubber/Stow bands do much more than retain the lines. They release the lines sequentially causing a smoother and more gradual acceleration to speed of the mass. "Snatch" for the most of us. This makes for smoother more controlled softer openings. QuoteIt would be more correct to say that if you haven't had a bag strip/canopy dump due to rubber band locking stows breaking prematurely you probably will. I'll trade the very unlikely bag lock for the prevention of bag strip. Thus the reason for the SPEED Bag. There has never been either a bag lock or a line dump on a SPEED bag in its 10 years of experience on a main or reserve. The Air Force academy reduced its malfunction rate from about 14/year to 1 in 3 years with SPEED bag copies. With the SPEED bag you don't have to choose which type of mal you would prefer to deal with. John Sherman Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gillesooms 0 #15 September 7, 2012 Yes, why do u guys use rubber bands... http://www.pgasus.be/start.php?pg=text&item=mPOD http://www.compal.be/LazybagEN.html Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #16 September 7, 2012 Quote Yes, why do u guys use rubber bands... http://www.pgasus.be/start.php?pg=text&item=mPOD http://www.compal.be/LazybagEN.html I just had to replace one of these and put back the original dbag on a tandem because of repetitive bagstrip and/or linedump. I guess they work better on smaller/lighter canopies and pilotchutesscissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
RiggerLee 61 #17 September 7, 2012 I've said it before but it bares repeating. I've actually had very good luck with speed bag variations under even the most extream conditions. I'm becomeing a proponent of this concept. LeeLee [email protected] www.velocitysportswear.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #18 September 7, 2012 QuoteQuoteThey are so prone to break that Mr. Sherman doesn't trust just 2, 3, or even 4 of them to keep his reserve speed bag closed, so why should we trust 2 rubber bands to hold the main canopy in the bag? Rubber bands are prone to breaking when you want them to, and when you don't want them to - when there is the most stress on the locking stows, as the bag is being lifted. Rubber/Stow bands do much more than retain the lines. They release the lines sequentially causing a smoother and more gradual acceleration to speed of the mass. "Snatch" for the most of us. This makes for smoother more controlled softer openings. QuoteIt would be more correct to say that if you haven't had a bag strip/canopy dump due to rubber band locking stows breaking prematurely you probably will. I'll trade the very unlikely bag lock for the prevention of bag strip. Thus the reason for the SPEED Bag. There has never been either a bag lock or a line dump on a SPEED bag in its 10 years of experience on a main or reserve. The Air Force academy reduced its malfunction rate from about 14/year to 1 in 3 years with SPEED bag copies. With the SPEED bag you don't have to choose which type of mal you would prefer to deal with. John Sherman I am only an advocate of tube stows for the critical locking stows, 2 in my case. The reason is that I want to prevent those critical stows from breaking at a bad time. Of course your speed bag design eliminates that concern in a different way, by making every stow a locking stow. Perhaps you could make available the speed bag in custom sizes for the main bag on other rigs? I agree that tight fitting rubber bands are better for the other stows, but by the time you get to the last 2 locking stows, having tube stows just for these last 2 should not add to the snatch force.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sundevil777 94 #19 September 7, 2012 QuoteThe Air Force academy reduced its malfunction rate from about 14/year to 1 in 3 years with SPEED bag copies. That seems to imply that many/most mals occur due to canopy dump/bag strip. Do you agree? I have long thought that bag dump happens far more often than realized, but it is not recognized. I agree that your speed bag eliminates that, but for conventional main d-bags, tube stows also do a good job of not breaking when you don't want them to. I understand there is still a concern for bag-lock.People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
councilman24 36 #20 September 7, 2012 QuoteQuoteMany (most? all?) reserve free bags have NO rubber bands... using a loop made from shock cord. Many round reserve canopies have diapers that use 2-3 rubber bands (elastic retaining bands). They generally have line stows in the container which are rubber bands as well. The only modern round reserve systems that has the lines stowed in the container are the various Strong Ent. models. All others use full stowage diapers where all of the lines are stowed on the diaper. Even Strong Ent. canopies with their factory diaper can be used as full stowage when in any container besides Strong's. Most if not all current model round reserve containers (hmm the exception may be the BaseR chest reserve) are designed for full stowage diapers. Butler specifies tube stows for the locking stows on some of their round personnel parachute diapers. I always have to go scrounging for some because I don't generally use them.I'm old for my age. Terry Urban D-8631 FAA DPRE Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 262 #21 September 7, 2012 Bag lock is still one of those mals that seems poorly understood. I've seen it happen when someone went to all silicone elastics (Tube Stoes or Sillibands or Superbandz or whatever was or is out there), but I've seen it happen with all regular elastics. When talking about bag lock, the breakable vs. non breakable argument comes into play only when lines have already looped around each other. My guess is that keeping line bights well enough separated from each other is what prevents bag locks in the first place. That means having some decent stowing system where you aren't making giant bights just to hold the lines in. If you have lines closely packed, then the bights need to stay small. (For example, the line stows on a Phantom style round reserve diaper have a million closely spaced bights, which looks scary. But I guess it works, because the emphasis is on neat, tight stows with short bights no longer than 1".) It has been a good advance in skydiving to have line stow attachments set inwards from the sides of the d-bag. Although it increases the number of stows, it allows balancing the line masses better side to side without having long bights, and disrupts the stows less than when they get pushed around the edge of the bag when in the container. So I'm not convinced that a Speed Bag is the only way to stop bag locks, but rather that it provides one method of having secure line stows. (Benefits against bag strip are another topic.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 562 #22 September 7, 2012 Because rubber bands are easier to pack than the cotton (line stow) sleeves and easier to replace than the break-cord used on old military containers. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #23 September 7, 2012 QuotePerhaps you could make available the speed bag in custom sizes for the main bag on other rigs? We always have. Send us your container size and we will fill it. Send it to: [email protected] Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnSherman 1 #24 September 7, 2012 QuoteThat seems to imply that many/most mals occur due to canopy dump/bag strip. Do you agree? I have long thought that bag dump happens far more often than realized, but it is not recognized. I totally agree. Quote I understand there is still a concern for bag-lock. There may be is some quarters but it is idle speculation. It has never happened. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
erdnarob 1 #25 September 8, 2012 Hello cbuffalino. As you know probably, reserve have no rubber bands, just (generally) a safety stow for two grommets closing the Dbag flap. The rest of the lines is stowed in a pocket closed by Velcro. However, if you have the chance to get the February 2012 copy of Blue Skies magazine, you will see my article about the tests I have performed on the main MAGBAG Dbag designed by Jerry Baumchem. There is only two rubber bands or two tube stows for the Dbag flap. This is so far the most simple design I know for a main Dbag and I can tell you that after about 80+ jumps, it works very well. The packers after getting used to it like it very much. I am now using large tube stows. The first set I have installed lasted for about 65 jumps. The MagBag is made by Jerry Baumchem, AeroSports USA. So, you can contact him if interested.Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
