Definition of "Good" or "Bad" skydiver

[Krip 2]

Hi

A jumper that found a good DZ and listened.

R.

[waveoff5500 0]

good: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they react to it well and save their lives.

bad: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they die.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[airtwardo 6]

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good: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they react to it well and save their lives.

bad: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they die.

That's Bullshit.



Tom, Roger, hell the list is damn near endless...they're dead and they were the best.

Don't EVER think you are now or will be 'good enough' not to die playing this game.

The reaper lurks us all and he don't fuck around...we do what we can to better our odds, but make no mistake ~ House Rules, bad luck beats madd skillz all day long on every table.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Squeak 17]

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good: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they react to it well and save their lives.

bad: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they die.

Fucking STUPID response

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[wmw999 2,121]

If they listen as well as talk, then they might be worth listening to. If all they do is talk, then fuggedaboutit.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[waveoff5500 0]

alright alright im sorry i might have misconveyed my point.

what i mean is some jumpers know the basic look red grab red...etc and thats where it stops.

to me a good jumper (which doesnt exclude them from dying) realizes that basic safety rules dont encompass everything that can happen. they extend their knowledge as much as possible to help them deal with unforseen problems or events and improve their odds.

a bad jumper learns the basics and halts any pursuit of knowledge because they assume (wrongly) that the emergency procedures they learned is a catch all for problems in skydiving. they make no effort, through ignorance or just not caring, to expand knowledge, make good habits etc in order to improve odds.

a good jumper never forgets that "the reaper" is there. they dont forget that at the end of the day you are exiting an airplane and will die if anything in the long list of things that need to happen goes awry.

my initial response was not well thought out and i apologize for that

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[airtwardo 6]

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alright alright im sorry i might have misconveyed my point.

what i mean is some jumpers know the basic look red grab red...etc and thats where it stops.

to me a good jumper (which doesnt exclude them from dying) realizes that basic safety rules dont encompass everything that can happen. they extend their knowledge as much as possible to help them deal with unforseen problems or events and improve their odds.

a bad jumper learns the basics and halts any pursuit of knowledge because they assume (wrongly) that the emergency procedures they learned is a catch all for problems in skydiving. they make no effort, through ignorance or just not caring, to expand knowledge, make good habits etc in order to improve odds.

a good jumper never forgets that "the reaper" is there. they dont forget that at the end of the day you are exiting an airplane and will die if anything in the long list of things that need to happen goes awry.

my initial response was not well thought out and i apologize for that

No harm no foul Waveoff, I figured you knew better but were just posting the cliff-notes semi-poetic version.

The truth is there is some good AND bad skydiver in all of us,

Some are better at some things than others, some learn more quickly and as you said some don't care to learn at all.

For ME anyway, how I define a good vs. bad skydiver has little to do with 'current' skill levels.

It has more to do with attitude, and acknowledgement of strengths and especially weaknesses. . .and staying within those limitation parameters while gaining the lacking skill & knowledge.

The most important thing we each can/should do regarding the always ongoing quest to be that 'good skydiver', is to be honest with ourselves when assessing current skills - true awareness.

~and work within that skill-set, never mind your 'comfort level'. . . the two though certianly related, ARE completely different things.

Understand & accept where you are in the sport and aggressively yet methodically pursue excellence at the next level.

That takes time & effort but there are really no fast tracks to staying alive here, as I said earlier and I think you agreed with - We do everything possible to better our odds, yet even THEN the reaper lurks.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Amyr 0]

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Watch them land. If they finish the flare before landing, they are probably not a bad skydiver. If they land fast /hard with an unfinished flare, they're not very good no matter how many jumps they have.

This is me! But aware of my lack of ability and try to jump solo and away from others until i finally get my flare>> so does that make me half bad?

[waveoff5500 0]

agree 100% always asking questions and expanding your knowledge about anything and everything is helpful. i always tell the students i teach that there are a lot of people who are willing too give a wealth of knowledge, but there are only a few who are qualified to give it.

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[LookUpHigh 0]

I can vouch for this. And Adam is a very very helfpful member at the Dropzone who is not one to shoot off opinions or "skygod" remarks. So I always feel comfortable taking advice from him. Thanks buddy.

[airtwardo 6]

~there are a lot of people who are willing too give a wealth of knowledge, but there are only a few who are qualified to give it.

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I'm stealin' THAT!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[oldwomanc6 38]

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~there are a lot of people who are willing to give a wealth of knowledge, but there are only a few who are willing to take it.

Quote

I'm stealin' THAT!

FIFY

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

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~there are a lot of people who are willing to give a wealth of knowledge, but there are only a few who are willing to take it.

Quote

I'm stealin' THAT!

FIFY

+1

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[waveoff5500 0]

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I'm stealin' THAT!

youre welcome

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[slotperfect 7]

That was VERY well stated. I knew I liked you!

Arrive Safely

John

[slotperfect 7]

This is a great thread . . . there have been a lot of really great answers given here.

I would like to personalize my answer . . . I have been jumping since 1984, having first been trained as a US Army Paratrooper jumping non-steerable round canopies. I am nearly 48 years old and will hit the 5000 jump mark this year. I have experienced only minor jump-related injuries; the only ones that have kept me from jumping are a bruised tailbone, a couple of bruised heels, a sprained ankle or two, and a perforated ear drum.

I love to learn - picking up new skills and improving the ones I already have. I also love to train - practice is not boring to me, and the results are always worth the effort. Although my tolerance of risk is very high, I am methodical by nature . . . I tend to do a lot of homework, formulate a plan, and make informed decisions. I also use my results - both good and bad - to make myself better.

I can learn from anybody, regardless of their experience level. I often learn things by watching and listening to jumpers with far less experience. I am also good at looking for resources that help me make those informed decisions I talked about before.

If I am looking for gear advice, I talk to manufacturers. If I am looking for teaching advice, I talk to other teachers (Examiners). If I am looking for canopy piloting advice, I talk to competitive canopy pilots. These are just some examples. In each of those areas, there are some super-experienced people with a lot of information to offer, as well as peers that have found something that works for them that might just work for me as well (at least there is fun for me in trying). Sometimes I pay for advice (coaching, books, courses, etc.) and sometimes I get it for free.

Credibility and reputation are important. A truly credible and reputable teacher or coach should not mind giving you a little bit of their background to bolster your confidence in them, but that conversation should not turn into an "I love me" speech. A teacher's ability goes far beyond numbers and ratings. As a teacher myself, I far prefer spending time otherwise used to run through my laundry list of experience conveying something useful to those who have showed up in front of me to learn.

Compatibility of personality types is also a factor. A good teacher will recognize that they are not getting their point across and try coming at it from different angles until it lands. In some cases, having another teacher step in to work with that particular student is the key to their success. It may have nothing to do with the original teacher's ability to teach or the student's ability to learn, it's just about hearing those "magic words" that cause the "AHA!" moment that everyone was looking for.

Naturals can be great people to learn from, with one caveat: they need to be able to convey what makes them so good to others, metered in steps that keep the recipient of that information safe and on track. I have met natural jumpers that are stellar at a particular part of the sport that (although they understand it completely) cannot effectively express the elements of their successful performance to others.

Check people out - ask around about them. Those very reputable and credible teachers won't mind that a bit. Nor will they mind a direct question like "what makes you the right person to teach me this stuff?" I am a huge fan of direct communication. They will also not mind if you choose to train under somebody else - they should not take it personally.

I hope you keep asking great questions like this one, especially in person to those who you choose to seek advise from. This two-dimensional forum of ours has its limits . . .

Arrive Safely

John

[erdnarob 1]

This is a very "wide" question. Even if a skydiver is good, he/she is not necessarily a good communicator or also not willing to communicate. It depends on the personality.

Now, what is a good skydiver : There is so many ways to answer that. Say that he/she is a skydiver who is willing to always get better and open to new methods or techniques in order to become a better jumper. But just doing an adequate work in the air is fine. Not everybody wants to challenge himself all the time. But important things are the safety which suffers no compromises and being respectful toward everybody.
The jumper having difficulty now can be the person who will be well ahead of you in the near future.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,400]

>good: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they react
>to it well and save their lives.

>bad: a jumper is placed in an unfamiliar stressful situation...they die.


Good jumpers often react as well as possible to bad situations and die. (Google Bob Holler, Pat McGowan, Roger Nelson.) Bad skydivers often do incredibly stupid shit and survive. (Incidents is full of these people.)

[erdnarob 1]

Quite a black and white view of the problem. But at least you give counter exemples.
IMO attitude toward the sport is the answer for being good or not. You can be "supposedly good" and have a very bad attitude.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[billvon 2,400]

>Quite a black and white view of the problem.

It's not black and white at all. Experience, attention to detail, good judgment, meticulous gear maintenance and training can all greatly reduce the chances of injury or death. But no one is good enough to eliminate that possibility.

[waveoff5500 0]

already covered in the above posts i over generalized. i expanded on that response in one of my above comments. thanks for pointing it out though!

"its just a normal day at the dropzone until its not"

1653

[erdnarob 1]

What you enumerate is part of what I call attitude. We have the same view but express it differently.

Learn from others mistakes, you will never live long enough to make them all.

[nigel99 143]

Quote

This is a great thread . . . there have been a lot of really great answers given here.

I would like to personalize my answer . . . I have been jumping since 1984, having first been trained as a US Army Paratrooper jumping non-steerable round canopies. I am nearly 48 years old and will hit the 5000 jump mark this year. I have experienced only minor jump-related injuries; the only ones that have kept me from jumping are a bruised tailbone, a couple of bruised heels, a sprained ankle or two, and a perforated ear drum.

I love to learn - picking up new skills and improving the ones I already have. I also love to train - practice is not boring to me, and the results are always worth the effort. Although my tolerance of risk is very high, I am methodical by nature . . . I tend to do a lot of homework, formulate a plan, and make informed decisions. I also use my results - both good and bad - to make myself better.

I can learn from anybody, regardless of their experience level. I often learn things by watching and listening to jumpers with far less experience. I am also good at looking for resources that help me make those informed decisions I talked about before.

If I am looking for gear advice, I talk to manufacturers. If I am looking for teaching advice, I talk to other teachers (Examiners). If I am looking for canopy piloting advice, I talk to competitive canopy pilots. These are just some examples. In each of those areas, there are some super-experienced people with a lot of information to offer, as well as peers that have found something that works for them that might just work for me as well (at least there is fun for me in trying). Sometimes I pay for advice (coaching, books, courses, etc.) and sometimes I get it for free.

Credibility and reputation are important. A truly credible and reputable teacher or coach should not mind giving you a little bit of their background to bolster your confidence in them, but that conversation should not turn into an "I love me" speech. A teacher's ability goes far beyond numbers and ratings. As a teacher myself, I far prefer spending time otherwise used to run through my laundry list of experience conveying something useful to those who have showed up in front of me to learn.

Compatibility of personality types is also a factor. A good teacher will recognize that they are not getting their point across and try coming at it from different angles until it lands. In some cases, having another teacher step in to work with that particular student is the key to their success. It may have nothing to do with the original teacher's ability to teach or the student's ability to learn, it's just about hearing those "magic words" that cause the "AHA!" moment that everyone was looking for.

Naturals can be great people to learn from, with one caveat: they need to be able to convey what makes them so good to others, metered in steps that keep the recipient of that information safe and on track. I have met natural jumpers that are stellar at a particular part of the sport that (although they understand it completely) cannot effectively express the elements of their successful performance to others.

Check people out - ask around about them. Those very reputable and credible teachers won't mind that a bit. Nor will they mind a direct question like "what makes you the right person to teach me this stuff?" I am a huge fan of direct communication. They will also not mind if you choose to train under somebody else - they should not take it personally.

I hope you keep asking great questions like this one, especially in person to those who you choose to seek advise from. This two-dimensional forum of ours has its limits . . .

Thanks for a brilliant post.

Experienced jumper - someone who has made mistakes more often than I have and lived.

[ManagingPrime 0]

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Hi,
i was just wondering.

how do you define a good skydiver, the one you should listen to and learn from, and who is the bad skydiver, the one you should avoid...

Just look and listen. You can learn just as much from the mistakes of the bad skydivers as the good.

[NWFlyer 2]

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Hi,
i was just wondering.

how do you define a good skydiver, the one you should listen to and learn from, and who is the bad skydiver, the one you should avoid...

Just look and listen. You can learn just as much from the mistakes of the bad skydivers as the good.

I like this.

But I'd add to it - where the real learning takes place is in the discussion and debrief of what happened, and it's important for a newer jumper to have context on that discussion to tell whether the person who made the mistake is making an honest assessment of the string of small errors that led to a big error (because that's usually what happens ... it's a chain of events), or is placing the blame on something/someone else.

Example. Winds have been at 20-25 MPH for a couple hours, coming over a building. Jumper goes up, has a bad landing and breaks his ankle.

The jumper you want to listen to is the one who says "I should have known better with the winds that high - I would have been better off staying on the ground. But since I was on the load with the winds that high, I would have been better off landing much farther away from the building so I was less likely to hit object turbulence. I put myself in a bad position."

The jumper I'd ignore would be the one who says "I don't know what happened, that turbulence just came out of nowhere!"

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke