Demos gone viral, killing the business.

[grimmie 173]

Due to a recent video of the shortstop getting flown in to, many demos have been cancelled, and many more have been denied nation wide.
The crew that did that particular jump into a stadium did not have demo insurance.
I almost had a very, very high profile demo, which will be live on national TV, get scrubbed because of said jump.
It's difficult to explain to a client the safety aspects of doing a demo when crap like this keeps happening.
Many jumpers think it's funny when a NASCAR race car gets dented or a player gets hit or Larry the Cable Guy crash and burns in front of a national audience.
In case you guys haven't noticed, airport access is a constant battle for skydiving. In a recent meeting regarding the airport my DZ is located, these demo mishaps were all brought up. How do we explain " steerable" parachutes to whuffo administrators when these images pop up on news websites and TV shows?
Here's a news flash...liability is now the word of the day. If we keep this up, our demo insurance costs will skyrocket. One client wanted to know if we could get a $10,000,000 policy for a pretty simple demo.

If you are going to be a professional skydiver, perform like it.

[DSE 3]

Rich,
My team lost a demo gig because of someone else' mishap. Last saturday, someone brought up the S&TA that dropped a weight through a house.

When the question gets asked about 'bad' demos that everyone hears about, how do you respond? What's your approach to a conversation that starts with "Do you know this guy that did XXX on TV last week?"

[grimmie 173]

As an entire group, we have to get our acts together. I'm not suggesting any more USPA or FAA rules, BSR's etc.
What we have to do is start being professional. A weight through a house should never happen. Rig properly, do a full dress rehersal jump at the Dz, have a competent ground crew with communications to the team, follow the rules on the COA and STOP doing demos on the cheap without demo insurance.

Things can and do happen on demos, but with proper training and prep work we can eliminate most all mishaps. Scrubbing the jump when conditions suck is a big part of it also.

I have spent all week convincing clients and the city that we know what we're doing and have a great safety record. It's the only thing you can do. Convince them you're the best and then perform like it.

We aren't doing beach jumps this year at our Surf's Up boogie because of viral videos. I am meeting with city staff next week to work on it and smooth over their fears.

Jumping into a minor league baseball field should be handled as responsibly and professionally as if it was into game 7 of the world series or the super bowl. IMHO.

[skypuppy 1]

grimmie

As an entire group, we have to get our acts together. I'm not suggesting any more USPA or FAA rules, BSR's etc.
What we have to do is start being professional. A weight through a house should never happen. Rig properly, do a full dress rehersal jump at the Dz, have a competent ground crew with communications to the team, follow the rules on the COA and STOP doing demos on the cheap without demo insurance.

Things can and do happen on demos, but with proper training and prep work we can eliminate most all mishaps. Scrubbing the jump when conditions suck is a big part of it also.

I have spent all week convincing clients and the city that we know what we're doing and have a great safety record. It's the only thing you can do. Convince them you're the best and then perform like it.

We aren't doing beach jumps this year at our Surf's Up boogie because of viral videos. I am meeting with city staff next week to work on it and smooth over their fears.

Jumping into a minor league baseball field should be handled as responsibly and professionally as if it was into game 7 of the world series or the super bowl. IMHO.

Hey, Sergio did all right!

If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead.
Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone

[diablopilot 2]

DSE

Rich,
My team lost a demo gig because of someone else' mishap. Last saturday, someone brought up the S&TA that dropped a weight through a house.

When the question gets asked about 'bad' demos that everyone hears about, how do you respond? What's your approach to a conversation that starts with "Do you know this guy that did XXX on TV last week?"

What do we expect when we allow the USPA to grant these "nice guys" ratings and appointments?

Note my standard disclaimer the USPA "Staff" is hard working and gives a shit, the BOD well it's a crap shoot.

Every time something relating to holding or raising standards in instructional or pro ratings comes up the BOD manages to swat it down usually because there are enough of the BOD who "know some guy" that won't like it. S&TA's are no longer vetted in ANY meaningful way, RD's have been setting policy without reading the rules, enforcements are NOT happening.

It will only get worse unless people start to give a crap. Seriously, most jumpers pay their $50 a year and don't want to know any different. Unless we wake the membership out of it's apathy.....

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[mjosparky 3]

diablopilot

***Rich,
My team lost a demo gig because of someone else' mishap. Last saturday, someone brought up the S&TA that dropped a weight through a house.

When the question gets asked about 'bad' demos that everyone hears about, how do you respond? What's your approach to a conversation that starts with "Do you know this guy that did XXX on TV last week?"

What do we expect when we allow the USPA to grant these "nice guys" ratings and appointments?

Note my standard disclaimer the USPA "Staff" is hard working and gives a shit, the BOD well it's a crap shoot.

Every time something relating to holding or raising standards in instructional or pro ratings comes up the BOD manages to swat it down usually because there are enough of the BOD who "know some guy" that won't like it. S&TA's are no longer vetted in ANY meaningful way, RD's have been setting policy without reading the rules, enforcements are NOT happening.

It will only get worse unless people start to give a crap. Seriously, most jumpers pay their $50 a year and don't want to know any different. Unless we wake the membership out of it's apathy.....

It’s unfortunate, you are right on several fronts. USPA has turned into a Trade Origination for DZO’s and is no longer responsive to the membership. This has been going on for several years and is getting more and more blatant.

It seems this group of “demo” jumpers” were not only ignoring several USPA requirements for demos they were also in violation of at least one FAA requirement. When a demo is approved by the FAA is comes with a list of special provisions on of which is crowd control.

1. Procedures shall be established and used by the holder of this Certificate of Authorization to control spectators and keep them out of the landing area.

You can bet that the FAA will be looking into this. It will be interesting to see if USPA will take any action against to members involved or just let it slide.

Sparky

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[DSE 3]

Quote

Every time something relating to holding or raising standards in instructional or pro ratings comes up the BOD manages to swat it down usually because there are enough of the BOD who "know some guy" that won't like it. S&TA's are no longer vetted in ANY meaningful way, RD's have been setting policy without reading the rules, enforcements are NOT happening.

This is the hard part, I agree. Until the BOD begins to understand the impact of the 'peace love skydiving' approach, credibility of passionate and skilled skydivers will plummet.

What did the BOD do with the guy that dropped a flag weight through a house (He's an S&TA)
What did the BOD do with the tandem instructors doing CRW with their passengers?
What happened to the three clowns that did a wingsuit rodeo from 2000' and had AAD fires?
The organizer that was caught cheating on records, and records officially rescinded?
What about the AFF instructors that left their AFF student alone in the plane while they went off on a fun jump during an aircraft engine failure?
The Demo group that consumed "approximately two sixpacks" prior to a demo (and caused a small, but very visible) incident?

~nothing.

I think you'll find that the newer guard of the BOD really wants changes to occur. The older guard of mostly non-jumping/DZO's, doesn't.

[Jumpdude 0]

Why were those people on the field??? They should not have been on the field until after the skydivers landed!! Sure, the jumper could have steered away from that guy, but they should have been directed off the field until after the jumpers landed. It's their own damn fault!

[NWFlyer 2]

Jumpdude

Why were those people on the field??? They should not have been on the field until after the skydivers landed!! Sure, the jumper could have steered away from that guy, but they should have been directed off the field until after the jumpers landed. It's their own damn fault!

I'm pretty sure you meant to say "It's the demo ground crew's own damn fault for not ensuring that the area was cleared prior to jumpers landing." Because it should never be the responsibility of an uninformed, non-skydiving spectator to know, without being educated, where it is safe and not safe to stand.

Shit, I don't even have a pro rating and I know that's on the "Demo jump 101" list.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[grimmie 173]

DSE

Quote

Every time something relating to holding or raising standards in instructional or pro ratings comes up the BOD manages to swat it down usually because there are enough of the BOD who "know some guy" that won't like it. S&TA's are no longer vetted in ANY meaningful way, RD's have been setting policy without reading the rules, enforcements are NOT happening.

This is the hard part, I agree. Until the BOD begins to understand the impact of the 'peace love skydiving' approach, credibility of passionate and skilled skydivers will plummet.

What did the BOD do with the guy that dropped a flag weight through a house (He's an S&TA)
What did the BOD do with the tandem instructors doing CRW with their passengers?
What happened to the three clowns that did a wingsuit rodeo from 2000' and had AAD fires?
The organizer that was caught cheating on records, and records officially rescinded?
What about the AFF instructors that left their AFF student alone in the plane while they went off on a fun jump during an aircraft engine failure?
The Demo group that consumed "approximately two sixpacks" prior to a demo (and caused a small, but very visible) incident?

~nothing.

I think you'll find that the newer guard of the BOD really wants changes to occur. The older guard of mostly non-jumping/DZO's, doesn't.

Spot, it's not about disciplining these jumpers. The damage has been done. you know what they say about stuff posted on the internet. Once it's out there, it's like pee in a pool, no getting it back.

We have got to educate the masses on the do's and don'ts of demos.

I teach a demo course at the DZ with Ron Lee of Skydiving innovations. We always ask a few questions before the course starts. Most jumpers don't have a clue about the COA, ground crewing, WDI's, the liability involved and the demo insurance. We have jumpers use flags, banners, smoke, etc. We do this at the DZ and to see the amount of anxiety they have to perform and land on the target is interesting.

There is no such thing as a routine skydive. A demo is NOT a regular jump.

Do your homework, educate yourself, get the insurance, rig properly, train like you perform and DO NOT TAKE IT LIGHTLY!

[3mpire 0]

How much does a demo cost to put on?

Is it reasonable or is it high enough that people try to get away without laying out the cash to do it right?

I'm just curious if it is the cost that deters people from getting the insurance and covering all their bases and whatnot or if they're just being lazy and not respecting the jump for what it is?

Obviously the costs are only going to go up if there is too much bad publicity or damage/injuries...

[grimmie 173]

That's the issue right there. A demo costs jumpers nothing to put on. Jumpers should be charging a client for their skill set, plane costs, and insurance. The entity they are jumping in to may have different insurance needs. Some venues want the $250,000 policy, some want the most you can insure, $5,000,000.

We have a group of skydivers that are dedicated to doing high profile demos with great skill. They charge for their skill and the quality of show they perform.

We also have a group of skydivers that will give away the farm to get to jump in to an event. They don't charge the client very much, if at all, they don't rehearse, they don't purchase insurance and they don't follow the COA rules, if they even file 7711 paperwork.

Those jumpers don't understand the liability involved, what they are doing to the business and the seriousness of their screw ups.

Every demo should be handled like it's in to the Super Bowl.

[ntrprnr 0]

As a marketer (not as someone who does demo jumps, because I don't...) I'd say the following.

"I did see that jump last week. While I can't speak for that specific team, I do know that we follow specific safety procedures, including a, b, c, and d.

More importantly, each one of us on the team have X years of demo jump experience, including such jumps as Q, R, and S, as well as a combined total of T jumps. We're professional, and this is what we train for.

Perhaps most important, (client name,) we understand how important this jump is to YOUR EVENT, and how much is riding on our successful completion. As such, we're going to do everything in our power to ensure a fun, successful, memorable, and most of all, SAFE event.


Hope that helps! -Peter

DSE

Rich,
My team lost a demo gig because of someone else' mishap. Last saturday, someone brought up the S&TA that dropped a weight through a house.

When the question gets asked about 'bad' demos that everyone hears about, how do you respond? What's your approach to a conversation that starts with "Do you know this guy that did XXX on TV last week?"

_______________
"Why'd you track away at 7,000 feet?"
"Even in freefall, I have commitment issues."

[billvon 2,400]

>If you are going to be a professional skydiver, perform like it.

Unfortunately, to a newer jumper who has a chance to do (or even organize) a 'really cool' demo, all those considerations go out the window when he imagines the fun, fame and fortune that comes about from doing the proverbial demo into his high school football game (or an even higher profile demo.) 'Demo fever' gets a lot of people, and it can be next to impossible to convince a newer jumper that he shouldn't do (or organize) a demo.

How many times have you heard "oh, it's a huge field, it's not much smaller than our DZ's landing area?" I was on a demo like that about 20 years ago, and watched two people completely lose it when a helicopter parked 1/4 mile away started spinning up its rotor. One came very close to breaking both femurs after landing without a flare in a parking lot because he was staring intently at that threatening helicopter (still 2 minutes away from takeoff.)

How many times have you heard "I'll be fine, I've done this before?" Heard that on a demo years ago (one I was not on) when the jumper, confident in his spotting abilities from the last jump, put a load of jumpers in a parking lot full of light poles and power lines.

How many times have you heard "it's just another skydive?" I was on a demo like that a while back where we were landing at the London Bridge. It was another bad spot, but this one was almost a mile over the lake. Almost everyone made it to land. Three people out of 40 landed on target. No water gear.

And how many times have you talked to someone who wants to do a demo, and thinks that you are trying to deny them the spotlight? They worry that all the glory and epic chick-magnet tales that will result from the demo will pass them by. They hear the stories and want to be in on the fun. All they hear is you saying "you suck and you don't deserve this" even if you are saying nothing of the sort. And people often react badly to that.

It's a tough problem, because at some point people become good enough to spot, and organize other jumpers, and figure out the FAR's (pretty simple) and get airplanes from a DZO. And at that point nothing stops them from doing demos, other than the (sometimes missing) experience and common sense that comes from . . . . doing demos. I'm a big fan of the simple 'training' demos that some DZ's do - a jump onto a nearby beach during the off season, or planning a landing in the next field over, or jumping into a field that another jumper owns. Without the crowds, the glory and the promise of payment, it's easier to make good decisions and learn about the demo process without "demo fever" sneaking up on people.

[phreeloader 0]

Alexander Polli was suppose to do a wingsuit demo today over St.Louis but it looks like it's been put on hold..

Quote

Local government and the Federal Aviation Administration have raised security concerns that are delaying the jump until further notice

Makes me wonder if "security" is just an excuse

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/394461/3/Alexander-Polli-grounded

[BillyVance 34]

To no one in particular... Fucked up demos DO cause harm to future demo opportunities.

There was a demo into the Alabama-Miss State football game a while back, don't remember the year, and one of the guys pretty much hooked it in and femured.

The SEC office then banned demo jumps into future SEC games.

All because one guy was a donkey.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[diablopilot 2]

We created the PRO rating almost 20 years ago to stop this kind of crap, and now we let people who get their authority handed out like candy hand them out like they are candy. As an industry, what else can we expect.

Someone said we need education. True, but we also need visible penalties as a deterant, but also to show the FAA and media we CAN police our own.

----------------------------------------------
You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[stratostar 5]

Quote

but also to show the FAA and media we CAN police our own.

Good luck with that.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[oldwomanc6 38]

stratostar

Quote

but also to show the FAA and media we CAN police our own.

Good luck with that.

Sadly, skydivers have always been their own worst enemies.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[Jumpdude 0]

NWFlyer

***Why were those people on the field??? They should not have been on the field until after the skydivers landed!! Sure, the jumper could have steered away from that guy, but they should have been directed off the field until after the jumpers landed. It's their own damn fault!

I'm pretty sure you meant to say "It's the demo ground crew's own damn fault for not ensuring that the area was cleared prior to jumpers landing." Because it should never be the responsibility of an uninformed, non-skydiving spectator to know, without being educated, where it is safe and not safe to stand.

Shit, I don't even have a pro rating and I know that's on the "Demo jump 101" list.

Yeah, That is exactly what I meant. When we do demo's, that is one of the first things that is covered with our ground crew and the people we are jumping for and the last thing we cover again with both parties before we (jumpers) depart to go to the plane.
And nope, I don't have a Pro Rating either.

Refuse to Lose!!!
Failure is NOT an option!
1800skyrideripoff.com
Nashvilleskydiving.org

[stratostar 5]

So what do you think was really going on with this cat?

http://stlouis.cbslocal.com/2013/08/23/faa-says-wingsuit-flyer-cant-fly-through-downtown/

Quote

“The wingsuit flyer, who has announced he plans to jump near tonight’s Cardinals game, does not have approval from the FAA and other local entities for tonight’s event,” FAA spokeswoman Elizabeth Isham Cory said in an email.

http://fox2now.com/2013/08/23/base-jumper-alexander-polli/

http://www.kmov.com/home/Wingsuit-flyer-promises-to-avoid-the-Arch-220702631.html

http://www.kmov.com/news/local/FAA-denies-wingsuit-flyer-permission-to-jump-during-Cardinals-game-220847551.html

http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/394295/3/Daredevil-to-skydive-in-wingsuit-over-St-Louis

Sure sounds like a bandit jump was getting set up and the fed's got wind of it... And with statements from the jumpers camp saying they were going to get out a 4k and the best viewing area would be the Arch.... no way this guy was going to try to fly through the Arch, and no way would anyone think to do so without FAA approval, would they, nor would they wear base rig's in aircraft jumps as another FAR violation, because that would be against the rules.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

"... do a full dress rehearsal jump at the Dz ..."

[Jumpdude 0]

BillyVance

To no one in particular... Fucked up demos DO cause harm to future demo opportunities.

There was a demo into the Alabama-Miss State football game a while back, don't remember the year, and one of the guys pretty much hooked it in and femured.

The SEC office then banned demo jumps into future SEC games.

All because one guy was a donkey.

Good example as to why we don't allow hook turners and swoopers on our demos!

[PhreeZone 15]

If you pause the video around 4 seconds when he is landing on the van that sure does look like the top flap of a two pin base rig hitting him in the back of the head. But they would never use a BASE rig for a stunt like that with out FAA approval....

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[stratostar 5]

Gee that video would have been shot out at one of the Missouri DZ that flies 206's with left hand exit, and why yes that indeed looks like a base rig in the videos... but like you, I'm sure they would never plan to use base rigs and then jump out of a plane and then fly through the legs of the arch and also land on national park land................. would they, nope!

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo