Student Landings

[exnavykds 0]

Recently, we've had a rash of landing injuries on first jump students (static line). We're a small drop zone with helmet radios for students. We teach PLF's (of course) but encourage flared, stand-up landings for students who are not landing off. Radio works well but different students have different reaction times to flare commands. I was wondering if forgoing the flared landings and sticking with PLF's is something we should consider, at least for a student's first few jumps (?). I've also heard that some DZ's are teaching slide landings. I'd be grateful for any input or advice that I can take to our S & TA. - Kevin

[skyyhi 0]

You might want to ask this question in the instructor's forum. . .they could give you some great advice. . .though you are sure to get some here. . .I won't give you any advice as I am too new to be teaching people how to land. . .

________________________________________
Take risks not to escape life… but to prevent life from escaping. ~ A bumper sticker at the DZ
FGF #6
Darcy

[voodew1 0]

It would be good to know what type of canopy and what is the average wing loading.

Where I teach we use Solo mains which are designed to be almost impossible to stall when lightly loaded (Skymasters are the same also) therefore you can flare the student higher if they have been sluggish on other actions without the worry of stall if their reaction times get faster on landing.

I know of other DZs using Saber2's where a stall is more prevelant.

Just my thoughts

The pimp hand is powdered up ... say something stupid

[dragonfyr 0]

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Recently, we've had a rash of landing injuries on first jump students (static line). We're a small drop zone with helmet radios for students. We teach PLF's (of course) but encourage flared, stand-up landings for students who are not landing off. Radio works well but different students have different reaction times to flare commands. I was wondering if forgoing the flared landings and sticking with PLF's is something we should consider, at least for a student's first few jumps (?). I've also heard that some DZ's are teaching slide landings. I'd be grateful for any input or advice that I can take to our S & TA. - Kevin

A few thoughts from a former static line student who continued on to become an instructor; however I do not have a ton of experience on this.
1) Make sure enough time is spent on the ground familiarizing your student with the specific commands you will use. Focus on the commands they will hear at landing and practice continuously during the day.
2) Have them do several practice flares up high and gauge their response time. If you see one respond very slow, try the command a couple more times to see if they get better or are just slow. Give at least two practice flares at different times to see reaction times. Adjust your flare command at landing accordingly.
3) Anticipate and give them a little more lead on the final flare. Most SL canopies are very large and docile, so even a high flare should not result in a harsh landing.
4) PLFs are always good as a backup and teaching them during the jump course is always beneficial. You can even use it as a command on final saying "legs together, prepare for PLF" (take this recommendation lightly though, I would get more experienced advice on this one). It would have to be part of the ground training though.

Lastly, realize some student just freeze up on landing regardless of training and commands. I saw my share of students given the flare command 20 feet up with the JM yelling it 4 times before they slammed in and broke something. It's an unfortunate part of SL. Most stated they didn't hear anything, although people in the landing area heard the commands off the student's radio. This is where I believe the tandem progression has an advantage by introducing ground rush a couple times before they are on their own, but there are pros/cons to both instruction methods.

Don

[GravityGirl 0]

What type of gear are you using?

How experienced are your instructors?

How long do you spend with ground instruction covering canopy flight and flaring techniques?

Generally, if there is a trend, it is not the individual, but the instruction and/or equipment.

Just my opinion, worth what you paid for it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[rsibbald 0]

Why not always get the student to PLF, even with a flared landing?

Try maintaining positive radio communication with the student from 150ft down to landing. i.e. don't let any silence creep in in which the student may think the radio has failed. The command I prefer to use is "Prepare for landing, feet and knees together, standby, standby, standby, standby, flare, flare, flare".

Also, make sure that the students are word-perfect with what commands they will get on the radio (i.e. same person briefs them as will talk them down).

[chuckbrown 0]

What kind of injuries?

[Mostly_Harmless 0]

I am not sure if this is 100% true. But I justed finished my AFF 3 weeks ago and I remember that there was a slight delay in the radio. So when the instructor told me to flare I actually heard it a bit later causing me to flare late.

_________________________________________
www.myspace.com/termvelocity

[NickDG 23]

>>We teach PLF's (of course) but encourage flared, stand-up landings for students who are not landing off. <<

I'm hoping you misinterpreted the above. No instructor should encourage stand-up landings on any student jumps. People hurt themselves trying to stand up in situations when they shouldn't, and students don't now when they shouldn't. Instructors should teach the most important thing is a "safe" landing. Student canopies land without much forward speed and students tend to flair early or late. Adding trying to stand it up under those conditions is a recipe for a broken bone.

At the very least, it's setting up your students to feel like failures after an otherwise good jump because they didn't stand it up . . .

NickD BASE 194

[tso-d_chris 0]

In my short time in the sport, I have noticed a correlation between poor landings and radio dependence. In other words, the instructors that minimize radio instructions have superior student landings.

Using a radio is not inherently bad, but it is sometimes depended on more than good ground instuction.

Take that with a grain of salt, as it is from a single digit sample of DZs.

[teason 0]

I've noticed the key to a soft student landing is keeping the eyes on the horizon. If the students are looking down, the ground rush can over load them and they have no idea the radio is talking to them. This means they either flare high or not at all.

How many times have you heard a student claim their radio cut out at 10-15 feet?

I recently started getting the students to close thier eyes (in the course while training!) and visualize finding a point on the horizon and hearing the flare commands. Consistancey of commands is also key for this to work.

I'm finding better flares due to visualization practice.

Remeber anxiety = looking down / looking down = bad flare and legs apart / bad flare and legs apart = broken bones.

Treat the cause, don't reinvent the wheel to treat a symptom.

Tim

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[exnavykds 0]

I wanted to thank everyone for their posts. You've given me some great ideas to present to our S&TA.

In answer to the question about the type of injuries, in the last six weeks, out of approx. 50 student jumps - two twisted ankles and three broken legs.

I don't think wing loading is part of the problem because two of the injured students had exit weights between 220 - 230 and they were jumping 360 canopies. Another had an exit weight of between 200 and 210 and he was jumping a 270ft canopy. It should be noted that the canopies are F111 and rather old.

Of the three worst injuries (broken legs), one had his feet together but not his knees (in spite of the radio command to keep your feet AND knees together), one did a down-wind landing (inspite of instruction otherwise) and the third was on his second jump, without constant radio control, and flared at about 20 ft.

At this rate, approx. 10% of our students leave the DZ with injuries (6% serious injuries). Is this unusually high for a small DZ?

[teason 0]

Hmmm.

Do you have adjustable main lift webs?

Improper adjustment are common for those in the 200+lbs range. The MLW is often stretched out for the jumpers girth. This can cause a great deal of discomfort when putting the legs together.

Consult the manufacturer for the proper postioning of the MLW and how to adjust for height (not width).

I would rather be a superb meteor, every atom of me in magnificent glow, than a sleepy and permanent planet.

[Beerlight 0]

Feet and knees together, eyes on the horizon. Are they looking at the ground in the final seconds or the horizon?

[fred 0]

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How many times have you heard a student claim their radio cut out at 10-15 feet?

I still swear that this happened on my first jump. I heard "prepare to flare", waited for the "flare" command, never heard it, flared (on my own) too late, and PLF'd. Swear. S'truth!

[riggerrob 561]

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How many times have you heard a student claim their radio cut out at 10-15 feet?

I still swear that this happened on my first jump. I heard "prepare to flare", waited for the "flare" command, never heard it, flared (on my own) too late, and PLF'd. Swear. S'truth!

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

S'truth.
When people get scared, they suffer from deafness and tunnel vision.

[riggerrob 561]

I am curious ...
Were your 200-230 pound students on the flabby side or muscular.
Flabby people are far more likely to hurt themselves.
Whereas muscular people are more likely to flare properly. Muscular people usually have greater bone density, so even a hard landing is less likely to fracture a bone.

[skydivermom 0]

That sure would have been wise for me. I've only done two solo jumps (one AFF and one SL). Sprained my left ankle on the AFF and my right one on SL. Flared too late on AFF and too early on SL. I am hoping for a stand-up landing on my next jump!

BTW, I LOVE STATIC LINE!

Mrs. WaltAppel

All things work together for good to them that love God...Romans 8:28

[wmw999 2,167]

Standup landings are overrated.

Expect to PLF, keep your feet and knees together as though you were going to. If you're landing softly enough to stand up, you'll stand up, if you're not, you're a whole lot less likely to sprain an ankle.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[MissyOutTheBox 0]

Well just to say Kathleen I saw you land in Nome and I think you did quite well myself.. You got to see both of mine somewhat I think.. Although I landed off both times I had watched you land and learned from you and kept remembering Jeff's words, "Flare around 10' ". I might have landed off but at least it was soft and on my feet sort of. I forgot to let go of one toggle for a second and start gathering the canopy and the wind got me there for a little pull in the field..lol
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Have always wanted to be a social butterfly but now I have the wind beneath my feet.

[Sparky22 0]

I have been off student status for a little over a year but I remember going through my progression and before every jump my instructors would go through the entire skydive with me from exit to landing and always advised to PLF, and while I was on radio, under canopy, "Prepare to PLF" was always a command I could count on around 100-75 feet, this helped bring my feet and knees together

[damion75 0]

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Standup landings are overrated.

So true - and not just for students! One of my friends recently damaged himself enough to spend months out of the sky trying to stand up a nasty landing in some turbulence.

I'd rather PLF and have the dirty jumpsuit, and yes, I have the grass stains to prove I'm prepared to put my arse where my mouth is...! or something like that...

***************

Not one shred of evidence supports the theory that life is serious - look at the platypus.