Most effective way to make 200-300 jumps in short time

[ChuckMartin 0]

Ron

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I don't see why time in the sport matters

Because you don't know what you don't know. It really is a simple as that. I wish the AFF rating had a time in sport requirement.

***I use to teach people how to shoot and I have seen newer guys that knew way more and could out shoot other guys that have been shooting for decades

Maybe, but on average the guy that has been around 10 years knows more than the guy that has been around a year.

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I'm not saying I know everything but I have met plenty of guys with "3 years in the sport" that I would trust myself over them any day.

It is not about what you think, it is about what the majority thinks.

All i'm saying is time does not always equal experience. My great grandmother has been driving for over 70-80 years, that does not mean she is a better driver then Mario Andretti or ready for the NASCAR circuit. The time is sport thing is just a cop out. They just needed some kind of baseline and by 500 jumps and 3 years in they think most people should be ready. Besides what does "Has a minimum of 3 years of experience in parachuting" mean? From your first jump? Your A license? First tandem? First BASE jump? ("parachuting" not skydiving) Iv seen guys use there first tandem as when they started in the sport. How does doing a tandem 5 years ago count for anything? I did a tandem about three years ago, guess I am ready for the TI course after all. If somebody is ready for something they are ready for it, if not then they are not. I agree that most people that have been in the sport for longer SHOULD know more then people in it for less time but that is not always the case. I know a guy that has been in the sports a few years (3-4 something like that), is a coach and took 3 tries to pass his C licence test. That is basic stuff that he should have known. Just goes to show time in is not the end all be all of experience.

And with the shooting thing, like everything in life, time has almost nothing to do with how good you are or how much you know. Its about how much you practice, the quality of instruction you get, and just some raw natural talent.

[Ron 7]

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My great grandmother has been driving for over 70-80 years, that does not mean she is a better driver then Mario Andretti or ready for the NASCAR circuit.

But Andretti is more qualified than you or I to join NASCAR.

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The time is sport thing is just a cop out.

Your opinion. My opinion is that time gives you more knowledge than pure jumps alone. I had an AFF I that got his AFF ticket at just over 6 hours of FF. He was all excited because he just got what he thought was a SMOKING deal on a new canopy. He asked me about it. When he told me the name, I told him to walk away from it as fast as he could. Ever hear of a NOVA? No amount of jumps will give you the knowledge to know that name.

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I agree that most people that have been in the sport for longer SHOULD know more then people in it for less time but that is not always the case.

And there is your answer. If 7 out of 10 times it is true, then it is not a bad standard. Of course, everyone thinks they are above average and are better than the norm.... That is so common that it is actually normal for people to think they are above the curve.

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And with the shooting thing, like everything in life, time has almost nothing to do with how good you are or how much you know.

I disagree. TIME has given me more experience to more weapon systems.

Here is part of the problem... You think it is JUST about putting lead on target. But it is more than that. It is also about rules, it is also about knowledge that *can* be gained quickly, but it MOSTLY (there is that damn mostly word again) is gained by experience and MOST people get that experience over time.

This is an old debate. Normally it is some new guy that that thinks himself to be ahead of the curve wondering why the rules want to hold him down. How unfair it is that he is judged by standards that should not apply to him.

I was that guy once. I get it. But the fact is that if I needed to select a guy to go clear a room with me..... I'd choose the guy with more experience over the guy with less experience every single time. And no, just cause a guy cleared a room once 10 years ago does not mean he has 10 years experience.... But I can bet that MOST times the guy that has been doing something longer has more experience than a guy that just learned a skill. Even if he REALLY knows that one skill.

I realize that you will scoff at this. This happens ALL the time. But after you have 5 years of experience.... You will realize all that you didn't know at one year. After 10 years you will realize all that you didn't know at 5. And after 20 years you will realize that you know so much more than you did at 10.

You may not LIKE it. And maybe you truly are "gifted". But I have seen plenty of "gifted" guys make MAJOR mistakes that they should of known better.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChuckMartin 0]

I don't want to come off as "that guy" and I do respect what you are saying and agree with 99% of it. I just feel that putting a time on it is not the best way to show experience especially when there is not free fall time requirement. I get it that there has to be some kind of benchmark and if three years is it okay. Still doesn't take away the fact that they don't even really say what three years is. There is a student at the DZ I work at that started skydiving a week or so before me. He has almost a year in the sport now and still does not have his A license and flies like he is on AFF L2. Cant pass a check dive, cant pass the test, cant pack but, on the plus side, he has a year in the sport 50 jumps and half way to his coach rating and will only need a canopy course and another test and he can get his B licence. I am not saying I am gifted and if i ever get my TI rating it will be just to say I have it. So I am not saying I am better, I am saying that just because somebody has three years in does not automatically mean anything. I know plenty of people with a B license and 100 jumps that should not even think about being a coach even though they have everything the need for it.

You may be very well right that ill look back in a few years and think how dumb I was for thinking this. I will freely admit before I had 200 jumps I use to jump with a camera all the time, even did a tandem video or two, or way more. I use to think how dumb it was that one DZ would not let me jump a GoPro and another one would let me go out with a full camera helmet and camera suit with tandems. I had a nice little talking to at Perris because I just assumed it was alright because I did it at another DZ. Looking back on that I thought it was okay but I can't believe I ever went out with a tandem with the jump numbers I had at the time.

Your also right that I have no idea what a NOVA is, but I also know someone that have been around for years and didn't know how a skyhook worked, even though his student was jumping one. Again just shows that time does not always equal knowledge.

This is how I feel about everything in life not just skydiving. That time doing something does not always make you better at it. There will always be people to get it faster and people that spend their whole life trying to achieve average.

Thank you for not being rude with me even though you have way more experience then me and we think so differently about this.

[Ron 7]

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I don't want to come off as "that guy" and I do respect what you are saying and agree with 99% of it.

99% is good enough for me to bet my life savings on.

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I just feel that putting a time on it is not the best way to show experience especially when there is not free fall time requirement.

You could argue that number of jumps is not as important as freefall time. You could argue that number of jumps is more important that freefall time. You could argue that time on sport does not matter, you could argue that time in sport does matter. The fact is they ALL matter. But Tandem ALREADY has a jump number requirement.

If I ran the world, AFF would have a time in sport requirement as well. Both Tandem and AFF would require 3 years, 500 jumps and 6 hours of freefall as *minimums*. Then you would have to prove your stuff in the course. But alas, I don't run the world.

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This is how I feel about everything in life not just skydiving. That time doing something does not always make you better at it.

Simple question. Two guys are standing in front of you:
1. 500 jumps and 5 years in the sport.
2. 500 jumps and 2 years in the sport.

Who do you think most of the time will KNOW more? This is not a question of who has more skill, but who most likely knows more?

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Your also right that I have no idea what a NOVA is, but I also know someone that have been around for years and didn't know how a skyhook worked

Not knowing how a skyhook works will not kill you - Other than being quicker than a standard RSL it is functionally the same at the operator level for the user as a standard RSL. However, not knowing what a NOVA is, might kill you if you are foolish enough to jump it. This is a good example of important information and unimportant information and experience will tell you which is which. If I could only give you knowledge on one of the two topics: Nova or how a skyhook works.... If you were only a jumper and not a rigger, I'd make sure you knew not to jump a Nova.

I'll give you another example: Which is smaller: A Safire 1 150, or a Stiletto 150?

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Thank you for not being rude with me even though you have way more experience then me and we think so differently about this.

Eh, if I am rude you will just ignore me. You seem willing to listen even if you are not going to change your mind. These kinds of discussions are fun.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChuckMartin 0]

No idea who would know more. 500 in 5 years shows time in. 500 in 2 shows dedication. 500 in 2 years shows me that he is around the DZ a lot but 100 a year for the other guy could mean he is not at the DZ much. Could only do H+P's, maybe he leaves right after he jumps, maybe he is a CRW dog that does not ever do any free fall time, maybe he is just dumb and knows nothing at all. Time in the sports does not always directly correlate to time spent at the DZ learning.

I think this helps my point. All these numbers are starting points. 500 jumps, 6 hours, 3 hours, 10,000 jump, 100 hours in a tunnel.... In the end it comes down to the person and always will.

Who is better? who knows more? who would you want a family member to go out with?
Guy A, 25 years in, 900 jumps, no ratings, only does RW
Guy B, 3 years in, 2500 jumps, every rating there is, proficient on all axes, CRW and swooping.
Guy C, 1 year in, 400 jumps, wing suit coach, 3,000 hours in a tunnel as an instructor.

"Which is smaller: A Safire 1 150, or a Stiletto 150?"
Are you talking about pack volume, PIA measurements, the companies measurements? You can ask me questions all night that I may or may not know but that does not prove somebody with 3 years in WILL know them. I could take your question and ask which one snivels longer. If you had a Arus what do you have to pull by to avoid a two out with a Safire 1 150, what about if it is a M2, what if it was that Arus again but with the Stiletto this time? What the heck is a capewell? What does TSO mean? Whats the reserve repack cycle in Germany? How long are the D lines on a Pilot 188? Whats aspect ratio? Should somebody with 100 jumps jump something with a 2.70:1 AR? What do you do on your 3rd jump in the static line progression? Whats the meaning of life? How much of this even matters? I'm sure I can find people with 10 years in that don't know some things an AFF student knows.

[dragon2 0]

ChuckMartin

"Which is smaller: A Safire 1 150, or a Stiletto 150?"
Are you talking about pack volume, PIA measurements, the companies measurements?

Totally missing the point... This question is more along the lines of the Nova, you could at least have done a search on these 2 canopies

ciel bleu,
Saskia

[Ron 7]

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maybe he is a CRW dog that does not ever do any free fall time,

So? CRW dogs normally know A LOT more about equipment than AFFI's. It is about KNOWLEDGE, not SKILLS. The course is supposed to test skills, but it would have to be a lot longer to test all the knowledge questions.

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"Which is smaller: A Safire 1 150, or a Stiletto 150?"
Are you talking about pack volume, PIA measurements, the companies measurements?

I asked a simple question... If you do not know it it is fine to NOT know it. But if you had been around the sport longer you might have known the answer.

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I could take your question and ask which one snivels longer.

And having been around the sport 20 years with 6K jumps on all different types of canopies.... I know the answer. I have jumped both and I have had several discussions on the topic on my many YEARS in the sport.

So, do you know which is larger or not?

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What the heck is a capewell?

Old canopy attachment method. It was outdated for sport jumping before I started, but I still jumped them in the Military.

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What does TSO mean?

Technical Standard Order... And having been around as long as I have I have participated in drop tests on several occasions.

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Whats the reserve repack cycle in Germany?

If I remember, Germany uses the manufacturers recommendations. So if the company says it s good for a year, then it is good for a year. But I know of at least one rig system that has a 5 year pack cycle.

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How long are the D lines on a Pilot 188?

See how easy this is: I don't know without looking it up. Even in my 20 years I have not been exposed to this.

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Whats aspect ratio?

Aspect ratio is the ratio between the span from nose to tail and the span from end to end. Higher aspect ratios normally means higher performance.

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Should somebody with 100 jumps jump something with a 2.70:1 AR?

It would depend on a bunch of other factors than just AR. Wing loading, proven skills and currency for example. A Stiletto is about 2.7 if I recall correctly and a guy that is lightly loaded, current, and has shown good skills might be fine. You should probably factor in density altitude, winds, and obstacles as well.

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What do you do on your 3rd jump in the static line progression?

You are doing your first PRCP.

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Whats the meaning of life?

Again, watch how easy this is: I don't know, I have my theories.

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I'm sure I can find people with 10 years in that don't know some things an AFF student knows.

And I'd bet that in most cases the guy that has been around 10 years knows MUCH more than an AFF student.

All the answers I gave here today were without research. Can you say the same?

So I aks again, "Which is bigger a Safire 1 150, or a Stiletto 150?"

It makes a difference.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[MikeBIBOM 0]

I don’t really have a stake in this one way or the other, and I certainly don’t think I’m a special snowflake with all the skillz at ~100 jumps, but I wanted to comment. There seems to be this idea that Time is the answer for everything, that experience counts more than anything else.

What about education? Is a guy with 1000 jumps and 5 years in the sport automatically better than a guy with 500 jumps in two 2 years but 200 Pro-coached jumps? I understand and can fly my canopy a lot better after an 8 jump canopy course than some of my friends with two and three times my jump numbers and time in the sport, but no canopy course.

Ron

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My great grandmother has been driving for over 70-80 years, that does not mean she is a better driver then Mario Andretti or ready for the NASCAR circuit.

But Andretti is more qualified than you or I to join NASCAR.

There are 20 year old drivers who are more qualified than you or I to join NASCAR (Or Formula 1), and some of them can beat the pants off of Andretti.

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***The time is sport thing is just a cop out.

Your opinion. My opinion is that time gives you more knowledge than pure jumps alone. I had an AFF I that got his AFF ticket at just over 6 hours of FF. He was all excited because he just got what he thought was a SMOKING deal on a new canopy. He asked me about it. When he told me the name, I told him to walk away from it as fast as he could. Ever hear of a NOVA? No amount of jumps will give you the knowledge to know that name.


Not to be a douche, but then why bring it up? The NOVA was grounded in 1994, there's a really really good chance that unless you've been around for 20 years, you've never heard of it. If a guy with 8000 jumps in 10 years has never heard of a NOVA, does that mean he lacks the experience to be a TI? (Do NOVAs fit in Sigmas?) Since he’s not a rigger himself, didn’t he do the right thing in asking you about it in the first place? Knowing or not knowing something isn’t as important as realizing you don’t know it and doing research to learn about it.

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I realize that you will scoff at this. This happens ALL the time. But after you have 5 years of experience.... You will realize all that you didn't know at one year. After 10 years you will realize all that you didn't know at 5. And after 20 years you will realize that you know so much more than you did at 10.

This could be applied to anything and is such a ridiculous standard you might as well say nobody should do anything ever. When I had 100 jumps, I realized how much more I knew than when I had 90, or 80, or 50, or 30, or 7. When I have 200 I’ll look back at where I am now and realize all that I didn’t know. As long as I don't sit here thinking I know everything, what does that prove?

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***And with the shooting thing, like everything in life, time has almost nothing to do with how good you are or how much you know.

I disagree. TIME has given me more experience to more weapon systems.

Here is part of the problem... You think it is JUST about putting lead on target. But it is more than that.

But the fact is that if I needed to select a guy to go clear a room with me..... I'd choose the guy with more experience over the guy with less experience every single time.

Gonna stop you here. Would you rather have a regular Infantry-dude with 15 years in who’s deployed 5 times over the last 10 years, kicked in plenty of doors and cleared plenty of rooms with you, or the guy who has only been in 3 years, but has been through the REDACTED Operator’s course and spent six months training specifically to clear rooms in REDACTED?

I’ve seen way too many people in the former category who did really stupid or wrong things just because ‘it always worked for me and I never had any problems with it’.

I had a platoon sergeant with 4 deployments and 19 years in tell the firers on a SAW range to prepare to fire by riding their bolts forward with a round on the feed tray. I don’t care how many deployments he’s had or doors he’s kicked in, I’d go with the junior-but-Operator’s-course-grad every time.

I once met a guy who had been riding motorcycles for 30 years, was in a bike club, lived the lifestyle, the whole nine yards. I’d only been riding for 2 years at this point. I saw that he had a massive recent road-rash scar on his back and asked him about it. He’d had a car stop suddenly in front of him and hit the brakes, but decided he had to put his bike down to avoid crashing into it. What he didn't do, was use his front brake at all. His experienced friends all agreed with his decision.

Now, these guys had not been through any kind of basic motorcycle rider’s course or experienced riders course, or really any formal education besides taking the written test and rider’s test when they started out, they just had 20-30 years of experience riding. Somehow, they didn’t know that 66% of a bike’s stopping power comes from the front brake and that equal application of both brakes stops you in less than half the distance of rear-brake alone without risk of flipping, something that might have stopped his bike in time without having to put it down, and something I learned 2 days into taking the class (then trained on for two weeks during the practical).

You underestimate the number of people who skate by on luck and time. It's way higher than 3/10.


It seems to me that there ought to be pre-TI courses, and not just tests, but actual sit-down in the classroom ground-school and practical exercise courses that should be required before even considering taking an AFF-I or TI course, and that would go a lot further than just time and/or jump numbers.

[Ron 7]

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What about education?

It plays a part. They ALL play parts. Some think the time in sport is stupid. It is like a three legged stool. You can't just have one or two legs, you have to have all three. Education/Experience/Skill

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Not to be a douche, but then why bring it up? The NOVA was grounded in 1994, there's a really really good chance that unless you've been around for 20 years, you've never heard of it.

Because they are still out there. I used it an example because I had a young hotshot that was all excited that he got a great deal on a used canopy. And this was not 20 years ago. No amount of jumps will let you know it had issues. But TIME will. You just proved my point. A guy that has been around 20 years knows about the NOVA... It does not matter than he might only have 500 jumps. His time in sport has given him knowledge that can only be gained by education (something that those who do not know about the NOVA just got) or experience (something that only time can give you. And guess what.... TIME has given you the opportunity to get/give EDUCATION on the NOVA.

Another example is the size question on the Safire 1 or Stiletto. Both of these canopies are still out there as well. Or maybe how would you like to buy a NIB Argus? Or maybe I have a 1997 Raven -M reserve I'll sell you cheap... Interested?

No amount of jumps will tell you the history of an Argus, NOVA, or -M (or a whole bunch of other gear issues). Only experience or education will give you the knowledge.

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If a guy with 8000 jumps in 10 years has never heard of a NOVA, does that mean he lacks the experience to be a TI?

No, but knowing about the Collins Lanyard might be something a TI should know.

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Since he’s not a rigger himself, didn’t he do the right thing in asking you about it in the first place?

In the case of the NOVA story, the guy didn't ask me about it till *after* he had struck a deal. He was excited about it and was telling me like a guy tells his buddies when he buys a new car. The only good news is he had not given the seller any money yet, so the transaction was easy to cancel.

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This could be applied to anything and is such a ridiculous standard you might as well say nobody should do anything ever. When I had 100 jumps, I realized how much more I knew than when I had 90, or 80, or 50, or 30, or 7. When I have 200 I’ll look back at where I am now and realize all that I didn’t know. As long as I don't sit here thinking I know everything, what does that prove?

That at some point you will know enough to perform a task... And that since you don't know what you don't know YOU are not the best person to decide when that time comes. Pretty simple concept.

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Gonna stop you here. Would you rather have a regular Infantry-dude with 15 years in who’s deployed 5 times over the last 10 years, kicked in plenty of doors and cleared plenty of rooms with you, or the guy who has only been in 3 years, but has been through the REDACTED Operator’s course and spent six months training specifically to clear rooms in REDACTED?

Again, the three legged stool. What would not work is the guy that went through BASIC and *Thought* he had spent enough time kicking in doors in training to be up to the task.

If you had the option of the guy that has been kicking in doors for 10 years VS. the guy just out of BASIC.... Which would you pick? YES, the true educated operator will be better than both, but that is not what we are dealing with here.

Again three legs, not just the choice between two.

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I once met a guy who had been riding motorcycles for 30 years, was in a bike club, lived the lifestyle, the whole nine yards. I’d only been riding for 2 years at this point. I saw that he had a massive recent road-rash scar on his back and asked him about it. He’d had a car stop suddenly in front of him and hit the brakes, but decided he had to put his bike down to avoid crashing into it. What he didn't do, was use his front brake at all. His experienced friends all agreed with his decision.

And how many new riders would have just done nothing and slammed into the car? I know a guy that did JUST that.... In a parking lot. I think actually in the Sunpath parking lot if I recall correctly.

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You underestimate the number of people who skate by on luck and time. It's way higher than 3/10.

And you seem to be overestimating an individuals ability to self evaluate their own skills.

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It seems to me that there ought to be pre-TI courses, and not just tests, but actual sit-down in the classroom ground-school and practical exercise courses that should be required before even considering taking an AFF-I or TI course, and that would go a lot further than just time and/or jump numbers.

Have you been through a TI course? Do you know if there are pre-requisets to taking the class? Do you know if there are ground school portions? Have you been through an AFFEval course? Same questions. Do you know about proficiency cards?

Here it is a nut shell:
1. Experience matters. That can be jumps, time in sport, or formal education. Best option is all three. Relying on only one will not work. No amount of raw jumps will teach you if an Argus with a 1997-M is a good combination. Education might, but I can't think of a single person who teaches a "Gear you should avoid class". Anyone that has been jumping for 20 years knows the NOVA is a bad idea.

2. An individual is not a good judge of their own skills.

3. Standards exist for a reason.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ChuckMartin 0]

If I had to guess I would say the Safire is smaller from what I know about the Safire II and how PD measures their canopies. I know Safire II's go something like 149, 159 and so I am guessing that the Safire I goes by the same stranded. Now my question to you? Do you really think everybody with three years in knows this?

I may be missing your point but I think you are missing mine as well. What I am saying is that time in by itself means nothing. What about my question about guy A, B, and C. Who is better, who knows more? The guy that has been around forever or the guy that has way more jumps and has every rating. I have said a few times now that I DON'T want to be a TI and have never said I am ready but you keep using my knowledge as an example, so thats go with that. You said if you ran the world you would want people to have 500 jumps, 3 years in, and 6 hours of free fall. Well I will have all that in about 50 jumps. So I guess I really am ready after all. The more questions you ask me that I don't know the more you make my point. Please keep asking me more. My point this whole time has been time in the sport (any sport, or anything in life really) does not always mean anything. Technically I have three years in and will have 500 jumps within a month or two so I guess all these questions really don't matter saying I meet all the requirements anyway. You have 6000 jumps and 20 years in, I am sure you know WAY more then me. You also know WAY more then people with three years. I agree more time on average will mean you will know more, but not all the time, and to put a time frame on how much you should know is a dumb idea. Whats makes it so that you are not ready wit 2 years and 364 days in but you are ready with 3 years. What about somebody with 1000 military static line jumps in 5 years do they know more then a AFFI with 600 jumps in 3 years? I ask this because a few months ago I was helping a guy learn free fall skills because he had a TON of military jumps (oh and had jump tandems in the military too) that knew almost nothing of the sport outside of his world.

I am agreeing with you. Their I said it. MOST the time people with more time in know more. Now I would like you to admit that time in by itself means nothing. 500 jumps and 3 years could mean a million different things. It all comes down to the person. Also all the questions you asked me there is no guarantee that somebody with three years in will know the answer either (and again "technically" I do have three years so that point in moot). I am sure we wont change each others minds on this. I am young and dumb and you're old and stubborn but it is nice to talk about it and listen to what others have to say.

[Ron 7]

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If I had to guess I would say the Safire is smaller from what I know about the Safire II and how PD measures their canopies. I know Safire II's go something like 149, 159 and so I am guessing that the Safire I goes by the same stranded.

The Safire 1 is smaller, but not for the reason you gave. Precision was making the Safire here in the US. They were measuring differently than the PD standard.... By a factor of about 8%. So when you have a Safire 1 150 (yes actually called a 149) it is actually about 135 sqft. This only affected the Safire 1's and Omega's. So a Safire 1 149 is actually about 135 sqft.

A Safire 2 is measured the same as PD so a Safire 2 149 and a Stiletto 150 are roughly the same size. But a guy that does not know any better might think that a Safire 1 149 is the same size.... But it is not.

So a guy that is 210 out the door wants to downsize. He has been jumping a Sabre 2 170 for a bit and is not "stupid on a stick" with it. So he asks you if you think he could downsize to a Safire 1 149. You think he might be ok so you say he is G2G. Except you didn't know that instead of being on a 150 sized canopy at a 1.4WL he is now really under a 135 at a 1.55WL.

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Now my question to you? Do you really think everybody with three years in knows this?

You didn't know this yesterday, but you know it now. So TIME did work. (actually education worked, but it took TIME for you to get this lesson).

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What I am saying is that time in by itself means nothing.

True, but jumps by themselves mean nothing as well. As proved by the example above... You may have a bunch of jumps, but you didn't know about the Safire 1 size difference.

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I have said a few times now that I DON'T want to be a TI and have never said I am ready but you keep using my knowledge as an example, so thats go with that. You said if you ran the world you would want people to have 500 jumps, 3 years in, and 6 hours of free fall. Well I will have all that in about 50 jumps. So I guess I really am ready after all.

Well, you will meet the MINIMUM qualifications. To find out if you are 'ready' would require more than just a resume typed out on an internet forum.

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The more questions you ask me that I don't know the more you make my point.

No, they prove MY point. You didn't know about the Safire 1 size issue... Yet you do now. Yet you are still not three years in the sport. So when your three year mark hits... Guess what? Yep, you now know something you didn't know at the three year mark that you didn't at the two year mark. Using my theoretical 3 years to get an AFFI, you are now prepared for the Safire 1 question when you were not ready at two years. And as an AFFI, people will ask you these types of questions.

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Technically I have three years in and will have 500 jumps within a month or two so I guess all these questions really don't matter saying I meet all the requirements anyway

You are ignoring a simple fact..... Yesterday you had no clue about the Safire 1 size difference. You didn't know what a NOVA was. I'll venture that you didn't know about the 1997 -M reserve issue. I think that you have been around long enough to know about the Argus issue. But now less than 24 hours later you know about the NOVA, you know about the Safire 1 size issue, you know about the -M reserve issue, and you know about the Argus. What gave you that info? I'd bet you didn't make a SINGLE jump last night. What gave you that info was a discussion with someone with more experience than you. I don't know who you are and I have never jumped with you, but I HAVE taught you things just by talking with you.

TIME has given you the ability to learn. And no amount of jumps would have given you that lesson.

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You have 6000 jumps and 20 years in, I am sure you know WAY more then me. You also know WAY more then people with three years. I agree more time on average will mean you will know more, but not all the time, and to put a time frame on how much you should know is a dumb idea.

You claim to admit that I know more than you.... Then why do you doubt that I know more than you about this topic?

And I never said it was an end all be all.... I have said that on average people who have more time know more.

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Whats makes it so that you are not ready wit 2 years and 364 days in but you are ready with 3 years.

Nothing. It is well within any statistical deviation.

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What about somebody with 1000 military static line jumps in 5 years do they know more then a AFFI with 600 jumps in 3 years?

The guy with 1000 military jumps sure as hell knows more about military static line jumps than you. BTW you should know I wrote an article in skydiving Magazine years ago titled, "Learning to Jump the Army way" (Issue #231: October 2000).

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I am agreeing with you. Their I said it. MOST the time people with more time in know more. Now I would like you to admit that time in by itself means nothing.

Already did... In the first post I made: "Maybe, but on average the guy that has been around 10 years knows more than the guy that has been around a year......It is not about what you think, it is about what the majority thinks."

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Also all the questions you asked me there is no guarantee that somebody with three years in will know the answer either

You keep getting stuck on three years like it is magic. But the fact is that YOU don't yet have three years and you didn't know all of this yesterday and now you do know this.... So if we ignore averages and use anecdotal evidence. Three years DID work for this knowledge.

It is not about 3 years, it is not about these specific questions... It is about a GENERAL knowledge that can ONLY be gained through experience and that experience normally requires TIME and how the general feeling is at about three years the *average* person has a GENERAL grasp.

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I am young and dumb and you're old and stubborn but it is nice to talk about it and listen to what others have to say.

Well, I was young and dumb... Not sure I would call 41 'old' however.

Oh how I wish you could see this conversation from my point of view.... How when I was one year and 300 jumps in how I thought like you. Then from today where I realize that I still don't know all I should know.....

I guess the blessings of 'old' age. But I have had this very discussion more times than I can count.... the new guy thinks the standards put in front of him should not apply to him... Hell, I was that guy.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[cbjetboy 0]

ChuckMartin

I may be missing your point but I think you are missing mine as well. What I am saying is that time in by itself means nothing. What about my question about guy A, B, and C. Who is better, who knows more? The guy that has been around forever or the guy that has way more jumps and has every rating. I have said a few times now that I DON'T want to be a TI and have never said I am ready but you keep using my knowledge as an example, so thats go with that. You said if you ran the world you would want people to have 500 jumps, 3 years in, and 6 hours of free fall. Well I will have all that in about 50 jumps. So I guess I really am ready after all. The more questions you ask me that I don't know the more you make my point. Please keep asking me more. My point this whole time has been time in the sport (any sport, or anything in life really) does not always mean anything. Technically I have three years in and will have 500 jumps within a month or two so I guess all these questions really don't matter saying I meet all the requirements anyway. You have 6000 jumps and 20 years in, I am sure you know WAY more then me. You also know WAY more then people with three years. I agree more time on average will mean you will know more, but not all the time, and to put a time frame on how much you should know is a dumb idea. Whats makes it so that you are not ready wit 2 years and 364 days in but you are ready with 3 years. What about somebody with 1000 military static line jumps in 5 years do they know more then a AFFI with 600 jumps in 3 years? I ask this because a few months ago I was helping a guy learn free fall skills because he had a TON of military jumps (oh and had jump tandems in the military too) that knew almost nothing of the sport outside of his world.

I am agreeing with you. Their I said it. MOST the time people with more time in know more. Now I would like you to admit that time in by itself means nothing. 500 jumps and 3 years could mean a million different things. It all comes down to the person. Also all the questions you asked me there is no guarantee that somebody with three years in will know the answer either (and again "technically" I do have three years so that point in moot). I am sure we wont change each others minds on this. I am young and dumb and you're old and stubborn but it is nice to talk about it and listen to what others have to say.

I have almost the same story as you...I have just under a year in the sport as I see it (I also have a tandem a few years ago which I don't count as I did nothing but go along for the ride), I am currently 8 jumps short of my D license (already passed the test and did 4 night jumps), I have earned my Coach Rating, I have earned my Regional Judges Rating, I have around 7 hours of tunnel including 4 skills camps with Scott Latinis and a 4-way camp with Spaceland Lite, a Bronze in the TeXXas 20-Ways, etc. and almost all of my jumps are full altitude jumps with 2-35 jumpers. I gave you my resume to let you know I understand your concept and argument. I also disagree and think there should be a 3-year in the sport minimum as well as a 6 hour freefall minimum for either AFF or TI course entry. I am an older "newbie" and I think that has offered me a bit of experience and maturity to believe we need a lot more experience in our sport than we are actually required to have when we are putting other people's lives within our reach. I know there are bright stars like yourself that understand and demonstrate skills well above the average but the argument is not what is best for guys like you (and me) but what is best for the sport...OUR sport. We need strict minimums and self-conformation to those minimums because we can die doing this. Maturity and common sense dictates we do the necessary steps to protect everyone even if we must endure the extra "un-necessary" time and training that a lesser jumper might require because it is in the best interest of the sport and is the only way to protect ourselves across the board. You can't grade skydiving and ratings on a curve...failure is a high cost...not a grade. Just my opinion...

Chad B Hall
Woo hoo!
My goal is to make every jump a fun and safe one. Blue skies!
Some of my videos...

[wmw999 2,122]

Thanks for the perspective, Chad.

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We need strict minimums and self-conformation to those minimums because we can die doing this.

Remember, too, that when we're talking about AFF and tandem ratings, we are directly responsible for others as well.

It's more than being physically able to be the best instructor. It's more than being able to apply the skills that you're given in the class.

It's about knowing when things don't look quite right, and knowing when the student really is as awesome as you think he is, and knowing when you really need to talk to someone else just to get a second opinion. It's about knowing that you don't know everything, and that you can always be scared.

Some people learn that early, some people never learn that. But time at the DZ really is one of the teachers.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[ChuckMartin 0]

I think we are all starting to get along now, lol. We are talking about a TI rating here, that is what this post was all about in the first place. So why doe's talking about a NOVA or a size of a canopy matter? Those to me seem more like things a AFFI should know, which doe's not have a time requirement. Is the NOVA question on any tandem test or asked in any course? Like the other guy said doe's a NOVA fit in a tandem rig? How about a Safire 1? If we are just talking about a TI rating those questions don't matter. If it is somebodies goal to be a TI they will learn more in one year going for it then three years just being a round the sport. There is no way I will not know more in 2 years then I do now and I will know more in 5 then I do in 2. But that doe's NOT mean there wont be people out there with less time in that know more then I do.

Now I am really going to poke the bear. I am just playing devils advocate now not trying to make anybody butthurt here.

Would you rather have a doctor that has been around for ten years or one fresh out of med school preform surgery on you? Seems like a simple question with a simple answer but look up malpractice insurance rates. Look up who makes more mistakes. The doctors that have years in and think they know everything and cut corners or the ones that know they don't and have all the newest training.

Who do you think gets into more accidents 16-26 year olds or 66-76 year olds? New drivers that just learned how to drive or old people that have been doing it there way for years and think they know everything and have not learned anything new in years.

I did not know what a NOVA was, true ill give you that. A few days ago I was talking to a group of people and most the "old time" jumpers had no idea what a M2 was or way you might not want to buy one (hint, look at the front page of this site). What do you think more students will be asking about? The new cool ADD on the market or a canopy from 20 years ago?

Take a look at who is dying and getting hurt in our sport. Is it the new guys or the guys with years and years in and 1,000's of jumps. With all that experience they should know better right? Not only is it way more of the more experienced people getting hurt but think of the ratio. I am willing to bet that at any given time there are more people jumping with less then 500 jump then there is of people with 5,000+. I have no idea what the real numbers are but I am sure that the percentage of new people getting hurt is much lower then the percentage for the people that have been around for a while. I have know a few people that have got hurt pretty bad in the last year. One was right off student jumps and the rest had 1,000's of jumps. One was even a DZM.

I can't tell you how many times I heard an old timer telling a new skydiver some CRAZY shit. The truth is that new guys will always listen to older ones but that doe's not mean they are always right and sometimes the older ones really need to listen to the new guys. We both have things to teach each other. Time does not mean you know everything or that you cant make mistakes. My first rig I got I had a master rigger look at. Paid for an inspection got it back jumped it a few times and it felt weird. One day a guy with a B licence looks at it and sees that the main is hooked up wrong. Doe's that mean that guy now gets to strip the rigger of his title and take it over "keep what you kill" style?

A lot of us on this post are former military. Think about it this way. Why doe's the O-1 with less then a year in get to tell the E-3 with four years in what to do? Because he has trained his ass off to do it. It has been his life. The E-3 might know that we need to call it mortars but the O-1 is the one that knows how to do it. He is the one reading TIC reports when the E-3 is drinking in his room. Again time by itself means nothing. If you have been skydiving for 20 years doe's that mean everybody that has been doing it 21 knows more then you?

[ChuckMartin 0]

And I agree that it should be harder to get ratings but not buy slapping a time requirement on it and saying its fixed. Make the course it self harder. I don't know of anybody that has ever failed a Coach course. That doe's not mean that everybody with 100 is good enough it means the course should be harder. I waited until I had 300+ jumps to get my rating because I did not feel ready to teach others yet but now I look around at the guys with 101 jumps getting theirs and thinking that this is madness and knowing that they have no business around a student.

Keep the three years thing but also put a free fall requirement on it too and even then the person should be looked at more then their numbers.

I talked about this guy before, a year in the sport, 50 jumps, about 1-1.5 hours in the tunnel. Sweet looks like an okay new jumper, nope he is a meat missile that most AFFIs and coaches wont even jump with and cant pass half his A licence card. You have to look at more then raw numbers.

[ChuckMartin 0]

Ron

*** I guess the blessings of 'old' age. But I have had this very discussion more times than I can count.... the new guy thinks the standards put in front of him should not apply to him... Hell, I was that guy.

Again I do not want to work as a TI and I am not saying the standards should not be applied to me. I think Iv said that on every one of my posts, haha. You wanted to use me as an example so I went with it. Sorry for calling you old but I think you know what I was getting at. Everybody always thinks they are right for different reasons. My point this whole time is that there are plenty of cases where people with less time knows more. If I stop jumping now, stop reading about it, stop going to the DZ and come back to the sport in 30 years does that mean I know more then the guys that starts 20 years after I stopped and has been jumping for ten years before I come back?

[ridebmxbikes 0]

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Or maybe I have a 1997 Raven -M reserve I'll sell you cheap... Interested?

is there something wrong with the year 97 only? mine is a 95. was that year ok? i know its slightly off topic but could you elaborate on your comment?

[Ron 7]

ridebmxbikes

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Or maybe I have a 1997 Raven -M reserve I'll sell you cheap... Interested?

is there something wrong with the year 97 only? mine is a 95. was that year ok? i know its slightly off topic but could you elaborate on your comment?

http://www.precision.aero/SB/sb1221faq.htm

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[ridebmxbikes 0]

Ron

***

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Or maybe I have a 1997 Raven -M reserve I'll sell you cheap... Interested?

is there something wrong with the year 97 only? mine is a 95. was that year ok? i know its slightly off topic but could you elaborate on your comment?

http://www.precision.aero/SB/sb1221faq.htm

Whew! DON'T SCARE ME LIKE THAT!!!

[jimmytavino 16]

wow...

i have been following this thread since it started because UNLIKE most of the respondents here,,,, I happen to KNOW Exactly WHo the O. P. IS.

I skydived with him many a time and have seen him often, at a DZ which i frequent...starting 6 or 7 YEARS ago.

He HAS a good attitude.. is safe, listens to and applies the GOOD instruction which he has received.
He is NOT overstating his abilities.. IN FACT his abilities which ARE at LEAST above average , should not even be questioned in this discussion.
The Guy is simply asking... "where can i GO... to get maximum opportunity to MAKE some skydives..." ?

What's wrong with wanting to make a couple of hundred jumps in a short time period?/ Isn't That just what dedicated teams try to do???Isn't that just what we would ALL like to do ??? i KNOW i would...

Why do All you self-proclaimed experts jump all over him about that??

Yes he does mention that he's "working towards " a T M rating... working TOWARDS.... THAT is NOt the intent of these jumps...he simply would be adding those numbers to any FUTURE consideration of qualifying for that rating.... It's NOt his primary motivation.!! He also says he wants to work "on canopy skills" So What's WRONG with that???? Would some here,, prefer people WITHOUT such skills??

I did not get the idea that the main reason for his question is so that he can IMMEDIATELY pursue a TM rating the Instant he hits 500 jumps....why do so many here, read it, that way??he said nothing of the sort.

sheesh.. Cut the kid a break instead of Labeling him as YOUR poster boy for "the Semi-Qualified TM candidate..."

The guy is smart. careful, and when i Knew him was a degree candidate at a first rate college in NYS.... a college for which many here,,,, ( probably myself included ) couldn't even Qualify for Admittance...No doubt he has NOW completed all those degree requirements..

Sooo lets cool our jets here friends..... The past 20 posts or so have NOt included ANY information which answers his simple original question... But gets into debates about time in sport, jump numbers, ability to assimilate information... and Jesusssss NOVA main canopies!!!.. I thought most alll of the NOVAs got tossed into BONFIRES....at some point or another, anyway !! How can ANY of them still be available for SALE???

The O P came up in the sport at a DZ with more than a dozen members, staff, and DZO, who can legitimately claim 40 years in the sport. !! some are pushing 45 years!!! THOSE are the staff who trained spawnmaster, who helped him to Progress, who stoked the fires of his interest in OUR sport...From i what saw of him ,,, In the air and on the ground he has a good fine sense of safety, amount of saavy and patience AND ability to Absorb what he had been taught...
... and NOW all he wants to know is
" where can i go ".. to basically continue building on those skills..
that's all...

"go South young Man ' or "go West young man".. whatever your schedule and finances allow... Many places in Florida will be jumping during the weekdays... and others HAVE mentioned Eloy, Perris V and L. Elsinore..
' Cause while we have shared many a safe and high level skydive here at Finger Lakes Skydivers,,, and HE at many other places, Winter is a TOUGH time in the N. E. to "make a couple of hundred jumps." during the November to March time frame

He will be Most welcomed wherever he decides to go.. for unlike some around HERE.. he is not over opinionated, he is Not a discouraging type jumper, he is not out to show his Knowledge, by publicly doubting others knowledge...He is smart, and amiable and knows how to carry himself, on a DZ. imho

Have Fun Andrew, skydive safely. Make as many as you can and make the most out of Each jump that you enjoy...
.. and in closing " Illigitimi Non Carborundum".... "Don't let the Bastards Wear you Down "..

edited... to add photo. left to right , 40 years , 41 years, 40 years, 45 years, 43 years , The O.P., 42 years...

jmy

[ChuckMartin 0]

jimmytavino

wow...

i have been following this thread since it started because UNLIKE most of the respondents here,,,, I happen to KNOW Exactly WHo the O. P. IS. ..................

True this post did get way off topic. Sorry for that we kind of hijacked his post.

[Di0 1]

http://www.dineatdinos.com/images/visa-american-express-mastercard.jpg

Really, I'm not being sarcastic: I mean it. It's the naked truth.
If you really want to crank 200-300 in the shortest time possible, go to one of the most famous and busy DZ in the country: Eloy, Zhills, Deland, Lodi, and just dump as much money as you can in the fastest amount of time. If you're already experienced enough to decide whether to jump safely or not and if you're not interested in specific skills (I wanna do that RW camp, I want to learn this from that person, I want to perfect this ability in this way by getting specific coaching etc. etc.) all you have to find is time, money, an efficient DZ and good weather.
We can't tell you where to get the first two, and most of us are struggling with them as well, but the last twos, oh... yeah!

I'm standing on the edge
With a vision in my head
My body screams release me
My dreams they must be fed... You're in flight.

[wmw999 2,122]

Boy -- I haven't seen JC in ages! And I didn't realize Pecker got up there with any regularity, either.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[jimmytavino 16]

Yes Wendy!!! I remember when They headed to TX... looong time ago . but JC has been back in NY for a while now and pecker, while still residing in TX visits at LEast once a year.. We allll go waay back
TBrown.. who authored your sig line, started with Us ,
( early 70s, ) as well..
Saaay did you ever know another couple of NY transplants>>> Pat Stone., and J .Hill sorta lost track of them , a while ago

[wmw999 2,122]

Don't remember them. Did Chuck and Diane, who also ended up here, start there? They certainly knew Pecker when he came. I saw Chuck a couple of years ago at a Spaceland reunion.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)