Waiver / Underage

[korbin 0]

Roger on the PM thing.

Thank you for a straight answer.

I'm done pushing the points, but, those states that you listed were just out of an article. I referenced actual court events in different states, which I believe were after the time of the posting of your article.

That TI contract SHOULD be illegal on some grounds, I'd have to look through it a bit and seek counsel on that one, anyway, that really doesn't matter. It's a tandem jump.. (That would be a large money maker, though)

@The emancipation thing: Emancipation statute in SD is bogus; I'd be 18 before the hearing.

Anyway, thanks for the responses and answers and "constructive criticism" *cough chris cough*

Travel sucks, but I guess it'll be necessary for the time being. (Last Memphis client moved out of TN when he got traded)

Edit: This really is a cool community here, and I'm sure this got a little over-the-top, so, that be that. Yeah,

[Jumpah 0]

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That TI contract SHOULD be illegal on some grounds, I'd have to look through it a bit and seek counsel on that one, anyway, that really doesn't matter. It's a tandem jump..

Awesome, let us know what counsel says.

[korbin 0]

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That TI contract SHOULD be illegal on some grounds, I'd have to look through it a bit and seek counsel on that one, anyway, that really doesn't matter. It's a tandem jump..

Awesome, let us know what counsel says.

Point being I wasn't going to waste the time on it.

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

Assuming you really are 16, you seem pretty bright for your age so you may have taken this into account and you may not have. It would kind of be pissing your money away to get licensed at 16 unless you plan to travel to TN every time you feel like jumping. Even if you are licensed a USPA member DZ won't let you jump at 16. From what you have said it sounds like you don't have any non-member DZ's near you. So is it really worth spending the money to get licensed just to have to travel every time you want to jump? Just my .02.

BTW, the skydiving community is a tight knit one. Don't start burning bridges before you even get into it. Just a friendly little tip.

[korbin 0]

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Assuming you really are 16, you seem pretty bright for your age so you may have taken this into account and you may not have. It would kind of be pissing your money away to get licensed at 16 unless you plan to travel to TN every time you feel like jumping. Even if you are licensed a USPA member DZ won't let you jump at 16. From what you have said it sounds like you don't have any non-member DZ's near you. So is it really worth spending the money to get licensed just to have to travel every time you want to jump? Just my .02.

BTW, the skydiving community is a tight knit one. Don't start burning bridges before you even get into it. Just a friendly little tip.

To the north, there are some closer places. There was something with the licensing.

@ the last comment, yeah, trying not to >.>

[packing_jarrett 0]

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Even if you are licensed a USPA member DZ won't let you jump at 16.

Dude get your facts together before saying things so positively. It says right in the SIM that the age limit is 16 with parental consent. And of course this is USPA 'rules' that should not be confused with FAA law, or even state to state legality.

As a personal note I'm 17years old and have jumped at many different USPA dropzones. Sometimes its as easy as anybody else and others its a royal pain in the arse to get special waivers etc etc. And there's still some where they simply won't let me jump until I'm 18.

If there's a will there's a way. I couldn't imagine waiting till I was 18 to start jumping.

Na' Cho' Cheese

[skittles_of_SDC 0]

I guess I should have said 'a lot of'.

[Squeak 17]

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I agree, this does kid not sound like a teenage kid,,,they just dont "write" like this,,i suspect a law student doing reaserch for god knows what..

let me categorically tell yo 16 year old can and do write like3 this.
not to each other but when writing in a formal sense they do.
I know this to be true because i teach this age group and see it often, when called for.

You are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky)
My Life ROCKS!
How's yours doing?

[Cari 0]

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I don't know too much about DZ operations, but I do know that I wouldn't want to run that risk myself. I mean, you can't even legally get a tattoo at 16. That doesn't mean that you can't find a place that will do it, but it seems like too big of a risk to me.

With written parental consent in the state of South Dakota you can; quite a few others like this (states), quite a few that do not accept any form of tattooing.
(Ex girlfriend was a tattooists daughter, funnily enough)

Totally offtopic, but there is another form of consent to something that does run an interesting path.

Oh, I know that it varies from place to place. I just remember when I was a teenager you had to be 21 in my state to get tattooed (now it's 18). It was a huge pain in the ass to find a place that didn't seem shady to do it...and then I had to have a notarized letter from my mom. Even when she went with me, they said they needed a notarized letter for their file.

[ladydyver 0]

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I do understand your suspicions, but there really isn't a motive for me, especially if I am trying to establish an identity with a group.

That aside, I understand what you mean. I was actually going to go for SCUBA cert, which definitely does require waive of liability. [Have been diving under waiver in the West] (Decided against it: I'm a midwesterner: Lake diving isn't all that interesting)

The safety concerns with SCUBA are VERY vast. (Nitrogen narcosis, bends, safety stops, airline travel, equalization, and a whole plethora of injuries; not to mention sea life)

Not to mention racing, other industries. And no, they are not regulated.

Please read this:

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Thousands of such releases are signed each year by parents enrolling their children in almost every kind of school and recreational activity. Parents in executing or not executing such releases make conscious choices on behalf of their children concerning risks and benefits of participation in a program that may involve risk. Those decisions are individual and based upon circumstances of each family and activity. Those are proper parental choices on behalf of their children which should not be ignored. So long as the decision is voluntary and informed, it should be given the same dignity as decisions regarding schooling, medical treatment and religious education.

Just curious on this point:

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..and mine have to wait until their 18.

Any particular reason, if you don't mind I asking :)?

My choice as their parent. Just like my oldest has to wait to get a tattoo.....first it was until he was 18 .... now it is until he has the money to pay for it. - and yes i have several tattoos as well - but again.....It was a decision I made as an adult. Once you become a parent you may understand...... children change your life and your priorities.

eta: thanks flyangel for taking that response...haven't been able to get back to the computer until late tonight. Korbin....I don't let my kids take those kind of risks because at the age of 16 they truly don't understand them - this is my opinion about my kids - I acknowledge that you may be a rarity but if you knew my kids you would understand.......I can educated them about it, and I do so that they have a better understanding but honestly I just don't think that they are mature enough to handle that risk. Again, I acknowledge that you may be different....but you wanted to know why I don't let my kids do it until they are of age....because they lack the maturity to handle the consequences of a decision that can be a life and death decision. will that change in two years time....probably not, but they will be older, wiser (i hope) and have more experiences to draw on to make better decisions in their life. good luck to you - where ever you land.

blue skies.... Cindy

DPH # 2
"I am not sure what you are suppose to do with that, but I don't think it is suppose to flop around like that." ~Skootz~
I have a strong regard for the rules.......doc!

[pirana 0]

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The point I really intended to make was that there was some impaired logic on this "contracts are not valid" business.

I did search, and nothing actually goes into much detail about it, because, well: quite frankly, it doesn't matter to most; it just doesn't concern them.

This was just the prelim research that I did, I'll talk it over at lunch tomorrow with an attorney friend in my office. (Tort)

And on that note, myself, or any lawyer can't make the distinction of what's legal on this regard and what's not unless it is clearly laid down or preceded enough: and it hasn't been. Nobody is determining anything: this is just my, and four unique states' courts' decisions on the issue.

It just is really upsetting. I hear "wait wait wait." In all genuine honesty not trying to troll. I'm trying to be as sincere as possible, since it probably could look like that. But in either case, for the basis of the conversation, there really is no trolling "motive."

This isn't a controversial topic, it's fairly black and white.

I've seen nothing posted yet to show that the waiver would do what the DZO would want it to do, when signed by a guardian on behalf of a minor. (Though I still have a couple more pages to review).

In fact, the conversation seems to be going in circles; and the more you post, the more it feels like you are not on the up and up.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Everything always attorneys fault ?

What you should understand is that its your legal system that is rotten, not the attorneys.

The attorneys are merely spokespersons in behalf of their clients. They dont give the verdicts in court.

My perspective is that most every law that exists was put in place by a pack of mostly self-serving attorneys known as our legislature.

So yeah, it's the attorneys.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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So you dont consider your country as democratic ? Is it someone else than you who gets to attend the decision making in your country ? Is it only the attorneys who make laws and rule the country ?

We are a republic. We do not elect via popular vote, and do not get to vote on the laws as they are presented. In a true democracy we would all get to vote, town hall style, on everything.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pirana 0]

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Any cases due to minors / liability?

Fuck, I don't know. You're annoying to be around, aren't you?

Do yourself a favor. If and when you go to West Tn. don't talk alot.

Best post of the thread.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Jumpah 0]

Interesting...how did you get started in the US? Did you or your family know the DZO personally? Did the question of liability ever come up? 1,500 jumps and 17, thats awesome =)

Its too bad parents can't sign this for the minor...many 16 year olds are more than capable of taking care of themselves.

[drdive 0]

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Any cases due to minors / liability?

Fuck, I don't know. You're annoying to be around, aren't you?

Do yourself a favor. If and when you go to West Tn. don't talk alot.

Best post of the thread.

LMFAO multiple times

CSPENSE is my new hero


(edited for spelling and grammar so amazon doesn't give me shit)

"We saved your gear. Now you can sell it when you get out of the hospital and upsize!!" "K-Dub"

"

[normiss 622]

and yet, somehow, you still speeeeeled it wrong!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

Hero status!!! See everyone it's not all for nothing.

[AlRedler 0]

"Don't take this the wrong way, but I don't know too many at the DZ's I go to that would desire to socialize with a minor. It might even been seen as creepy and possibly illegal at times. "

Wow, that is a bit too cautious. My daughter started jumping at my dz in England at 16, the legal age. She stopped again but one regular jumper has just turned 18 and she has 200 odd jumps from the last couple of years. She is good friends with lots of us, many in their 40's and older. Nothing creepy here!

Al

[normiss 622]

I guess I see a difference in "jumping with" and "socializing".

[AlRedler 0]

Well, she drinks in the same dz bar as everyone else, and lives on the dz as a full time camera jumper. She is also a tattooist and has tattooed a few of the other skydivers. Not all 16 year olds are kids!

[CSpenceFLY 1]

We have bigger liability issues over here then you do there. We have a sue happy country. Not only is there an under age drinking issue but also having a minor on the after hours adult play ground. It might not be an issue at every DZ but it sure would be at a few I can think of. I can think of a few that I would hope you would not want your 16 yr old daughter after hours.

Then there is the OP, who likes to find case law to get what he wants. That shit works both ways.

[AlRedler 0]

Yes, it is a shame that is the case. We seem to be going the same way too, since no win no fee was made legal for our lawyers. There are other differences too. It is not necessarily illegal for an under 18 to be in a bar, but it is if they are sitting at the bar.

I do not think a DZO would be taking any greater risk under our laws, or insurances, for letting a 16 year old jump, compared to a 18 year old. Indeed, many dropzones in Spain allow 15 year olds to jump. The question of whether any particular 16 year old is sensible enough to be safe is a judgement that may have to be made in some cases, but it is not perceived to be a general problem in Europe.

I think the OP has a point that it is a shame it is so difficult to jump under 18 in the States. I sympathise with the DZOs there who have to carry such legal risks to run our sport.

Al

[Guru312 0]

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I sympathise with the DZOs there who have to carry such legal risks to run our sport.

I haven't been a DZO since about 1974 but I flew jumpers at various DZs for many years. EVERYONE involved in jumping is a potential target for litigation. I never had a death at my DZs but I had two deaths in two separate circumstances where I owned and was piloting the plane they jumped from. I expected to be sued but when the deaths and full circumstances were investigated I was absolved of any culpability.

All contract pilots, aircraft owners, fuel companies, pilots or mechanics have been and will be sued in most death-related accidents. I heard some horror stories over the years.

I'm glad I'm not involved anymore. I rather like the 18 year old, age of legal majority issue, It will cause my daughter to realize that she is making the decision herself,.. and not her mom or I.

Guru312

I am not DB Cooper

[kelpdiver 2]

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The safety concerns with SCUBA are VERY vast. (Nitrogen narcosis, bends, safety stops, airline travel, equalization, and a whole plethora of injuries; not to mention sea life)

Quietly implied here is that it is more vast than skydiving, or on a near plane. And that is essentially false.

Remove heart attacks and stupidly running out of air, and you've eliminated most of the risk. The sport does have a verb (bent), but it's not nearly as severe as "femur."

Nonetheless, there are risks in allowing minors to dive, due to physiological concerns (heart valve doesn't fully develop until later teens) and maturity requirements for buddy diving. Why is it not a problem, and why is Padi going after 8 year olds? Because they want business from vacationing families. That huge market, coupled with the fairly low risk, makes it a winning situation. Also, it should be noted, much of the resort diving world is outside US borders and laws.

DZs don't have the same to gain. Quite the opposite, in fact.