US-Iran Prisoner exchange

[JoeWeber 2,358]

I think the Biden administration is blowing it big time. I don't care who these dual citizenship folks are or what trumped up charges were leveled against them. Whoever they are, they aren't 5 soccer moms kidnapped, with their minivan, off the streets of America and no way should we be trading 5 of our prisoners and $6 Billion Dollars for them. Thinking that the money will only be spent on humanitarian programs is foolish. We are giving Iran $6 Billion to spend on their armament programs and there is no other rational way to see it. Even if there is some inside poker we can't see we are still setting the per hostage price at $1.2 Billion. Not smart. 

[gowlerk 1,956]

The plan is to repay Iran with Iran's own money. The US government has never treated Iran in a fair or honorable way since the CIA installed the Shaw in the 50s. Just what do you want? Your nation broke the relationship and your nation has only made it worse.  

[JoeWeber 2,358]

55 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The plan is to repay Iran with Iran's own money. The US government has never treated Iran in a fair or honorable way since the CIA installed the Shaw in the 50s. Just what do you want? Your nation broke the relationship and your nation has only made it worse.  

Money is fungible and the $6 Billion in hostage money is unlikely to cause them to be any more humanitarian; they'll just use the boon to make more boom. Worse setting a hostage price is foolhardy. No matter, let's say you're right and that they are now disagreeable and dangerous actors because the United States kicked a nice dog until it became a mean dog. If you feel okay, because of some sense of right letting it play with your kids that's your call,  but I think the damn thing needs to stay in it's cage until we're sure it'll play nice again.

[Phil1111 943]

59 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

The plan is to repay Iran with Iran's own money.

True

59 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

 The US government has never treated Iran in a fair or honorable way since the CIA installed the Shaw in the 50s.

Mostly true. But a religious conservative government has never been popular with most Iranians. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini used the corruption of the Shaw to come to power. Most Iranians leaned towards the west and liked western values more than the religious conservatism of the Ayatollah.

Today of course the Islamic conservatives have no regard for its people.

1 hour ago, gowlerk said:

... Your nation broke the relationship and your nation has only made it worse.  

Perhaps but no non-Islamic government has good relations. The Iranian conservatives meddle in every country in the region. They seize hostages without cause. They have a stated national objective to destroy Israel. As a nuclear power they will act to influence neighboring countries with all means possible. Regardless of the consequences to its people.

The US is not to blame for the current state of affairs in Iran. The Mullahs are to blame. Like Putin , like Xi, like Kim and others . They sustain their power through the use of police and security forces. Who will kill and terrorize its people to keep the government in power.

8 minutes ago, JoeWeber said:

Money is fungible and the $6 Billion in hostage money is unlikely to cause them to be any more humanitarian; they'll just use the boon to make more boom. Worse setting a hostage price is foolhardy. ...

The US has set a foolish precedent in its hostage dealings with Russia, N.Korea and Iran. All three of these countries will continue to grab American hostages to act as a bank for future deals with American presidents. Is there any wonder why they don't take UK, French, EU hostages? Americans are the treasured ones.

One remedy is to allow the released hostages to pursue serious money damages for their false imprisonment. As there is always Iranian cash in seized bank accounts in the US. In the meantime the cash for "humanitarian purchases" will free up other money for nuclear weapons.

Should Iran decide to go ahead with a bomb it could have the fissile material in about two weeks. It has sufficient material once further enriched  to build 10-12 bombs.

These billions could provide the breathing room to move its nuclear program ahead.

Politicians Say Iran’s Economic Crisis Can Lead To Regime Collapse

[JoeWeber 2,358]

50 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

True

Mostly true. But a religious conservative government has never been popular with most Iranians. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini used the corruption of the Shaw to come to power. Most Iranians leaned towards the west and liked western values more than the religious conservatism of the Ayatollah.

Today of course the Islamic conservatives have no regard for its people.

Perhaps but no non-Islamic government has good relations. The Iranian conservatives meddle in every country in the region. They seize hostages without cause. They have a stated national objective to destroy Israel. As a nuclear power they will act to influence neighboring countries with all means possible. Regardless of the consequences to its people.

The US is not to blame for the current state of affairs in Iran. The Mullahs are to blame. Like Putin , like Xi, like Kim and others . They sustain their power through the use of police and security forces. Who will kill and terrorize its people to keep the government in power.

The US has set a foolish precedent in its hostage dealings with Russia, N.Korea and Iran. All three of these countries will continue to grab American hostages to act as a bank for future deals with American presidents. Is there any wonder why they don't take UK, French, EU hostages? Americans are the treasured ones.

One remedy is to allow the released hostages to pursue serious money damages for their false imprisonment. As there is always Iranian cash in seized bank accounts in the US. In the meantime the cash for "humanitarian purchases" will free up other money for nuclear weapons.

.Should Iran decide to go ahead with a bomb it could have the fissile material in about two weeks. It has sufficient material once further enriched  to build 10-12 bombs.

These billions could provide the breathing room to move its nuclear program ahead.

Politicians Say Iran’s Economic Crisis Can Lead To Regime Collapse

Agreed. I'm as happy to let the hostages sue Iran as I am Slim, of course. I just really think we made a mistake for everyone, not just the US. But it's not a done deal yet and hopefully it goes to hell and President Harris kiboshes the whole thing

[wmw999 2,179]

Some people’s idea of “freedom” is the lack of anyone to push back against their religious views. Doing things like, say, wearing swimsuits, understanding that the gender assigned at birth is wrong, showing that they are romantic with the same gender person, or figuring that “personhood” comes at a God-assigned, not a brain activity-assigned, moment.

Wendy P. 

[gowlerk 1,956]

In your OP you reference duality of citizenship. Is this a limiting factor in calculating the appropriate price of their ransom? If they had more Anglo type surnames would your objections be as strong?

[JoeWeber 2,358]

40 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

In your OP you reference duality of citizenship. Is this a limiting factor in calculating the appropriate price of their ransom? If they had more Anglo type surnames would your objections be as strong?

You are being silly. It was simply being descriptive of who they are: folks of Iranian decent with Iranian and American citizenship living and/or working in Iran where they were detained. That is worldly people who must have known there was some risk of detention simply because they were dual citizens. 

[gowlerk 1,956]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

You are being silly. It was simply being descriptive of who they are: folks of Iranian decent with Iranian and American citizenship living and/or working in Iran where they were detained. That is worldly people who must have known there was some risk of detention simply because they were dual citizens. 

Doesn’t really answer the question does it? As silly as it is, would you feel differently if they were not dual citizens?

[JoeWeber 2,358]

5 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Doesn’t really answer the question does it? As silly as it is, would you feel differently if they were not dual citizens?

As in 5 soccer moms kidnapped off the streets of America? Yes. I am not making my point well enough, I guess. I tend to categorize folks with multiple citizenships as internationalists who should have a fair knowledge of the risks, in this case, of holding US citizenship in a hostile nation. But that is just one aspect of this, the paying of vast sums of money as one component of this hostage release is just bad policy. Hey, I know, why not call me out for victim blaming, too?

[wmw999 2,179]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

You are being silly. It was simply being descriptive of who they are: 

Is that like people who make a point of identifying the race of someone who wronged them — as long as it’s some other race? Or always identifying criminals by ethnicity, as long as it’s not white? Because sometimes omitting that de-emphasizes it, which only highlights the seeming prevalence of other races in bad acts

Wendy P. 

[Phil1111 943]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

As in 5 soccer moms kidnapped off the streets of America? Yes. I am not making my point well enough, I guess. I tend to categorize folks with multiple citizenships as internationalists who should have a fair knowledge of the risks, in this case, of holding US citizenship in a hostile nation. But that is just one aspect of this, the paying of vast sums of money as one component of this hostage release is just bad policy. Hey, I know, why not call me out for victim blaming, too?

IMO dual citizen is a red herring in the hostage-ransom situation at hand. Canada currently has a huge Ukrainian- Canadian citizenship program underway. Where perhaps a half million Ukrainians may end up with dual citizenship. If the current temporary measures are converted to full Canadian citizenship.

The Brittney Griner freed from Russian prison in exchange for Viktor Bout deal is a clean example of poor state-craft. Only in this trade there was no cash involved. Bout however, an arms dealer, is likely helping Russia get needed arms and arms components right now. So he is likely helping kill Ukrainian civilians.

Hostage negotiations should be handled in a few select ways. This is the best way but there are others as well. In the case of Haiti: US nurse Alix Dorsainvil and child freed by kidnappers, charity says US intelligence should identify the gang responsible and try to kill its gang leaders. Thats how you deal with hostage takers. Israel uses a similar approach but It also conducts swaps. Cash associated with hostages sends a bad message. Having said that the money in the current US-Iran deal belongs to Iran.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Phil1111

[JoeWeber 2,358]

53 minutes ago, wmw999 said:

Is that like people who make a point of identifying the race of someone who wronged them — as long as it’s some other race?

No.

[JoeWeber 2,358]

44 minutes ago, Phil1111 said:

IMO dual citizen is a red herring in the hostage-ransom situation at had

I wouldn't say red herring, maybe light pink herring, but it is a fact and I was simply observing it.

[jakee 1,280]

1 hour ago, JoeWeber said:

As in 5 soccer moms kidnapped off the streets of America? Yes. I am not making my point well enough, I guess. 

Maybe it would help if you stopped conflating two different things? As you well know, having dual citizenship and not being in America are entirely unrelated. 

Intentionally obfuscating in response to a direct question isn’t usually the best way to make your point any clearer.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

4 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

You are being silly. It was simply being descriptive of who they are: folks of Iranian decent with Iranian and American citizenship living and/or working in Iran where they were detained. That is worldly people who must have known there was some risk of detention simply because they were dual citizens. 

Is it just the passport you object to, or all these Americans who say they are Irish, or Scottish, or English etc. subject to the same level of treatment? At what point do you become less American?

[JerryBaumchen 1,083]

3 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

As in 5 soccer moms kidnapped off the streets of America? Yes. I am not making my point well enough, I guess. I tend to categorize folks with multiple citizenships as internationalists who should have a fair knowledge of the risks, in this case, of holding US citizenship in a hostile nation. But that is just one aspect of this, the paying of vast sums of money as one component of this hostage release is just bad policy. Hey, I know, why not call me out for victim blaming, too?

Hi Joe,

Re:  folks with multiple citizenships

Hmmm, something about the pot calling the kettle black?

Jerry Baumchen

[JerryBaumchen 1,083]

15 hours ago, Phil1111 said:

True

Mostly true. But a religious conservative government has never been popular with most Iranians. Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini used the corruption of the Shaw to come to power. Most Iranians leaned towards the west and liked western values more than the religious conservatism of the Ayatollah.

Today of course the Islamic conservatives have no regard for its people.

Perhaps but no non-Islamic government has good relations. The Iranian conservatives meddle in every country in the region. They seize hostages without cause. They have a stated national objective to destroy Israel. As a nuclear power they will act to influence neighboring countries with all means possible. Regardless of the consequences to its people.

The US is not to blame for the current state of affairs in Iran. The Mullahs are to blame. Like Putin , like Xi, like Kim and others . They sustain their power through the use of police and security forces. Who will kill and terrorize its people to keep the government in power.

The US has set a foolish precedent in its hostage dealings with Russia, N.Korea and Iran. All three of these countries will continue to grab American hostages to act as a bank for future deals with American presidents. Is there any wonder why they don't take UK, French, EU hostages? Americans are the treasured ones.

One remedy is to allow the released hostages to pursue serious money damages for their false imprisonment. As there is always Iranian cash in seized bank accounts in the US. In the meantime the cash for "humanitarian purchases" will free up other money for nuclear weapons.

Should Iran decide to go ahead with a bomb it could have the fissile material in about two weeks. It has sufficient material once further enriched  to build 10-12 bombs.

These billions could provide the breathing room to move its nuclear program ahead.

Politicians Say Iran’s Economic Crisis Can Lead To Regime Collapse

Hi Phil,

Re:  They have a stated national objective to destroy Israel

Their population should hope that they never try.  They would last about another 6-day war, then it would be over.

Even should Iran get nukes, they would be foolish to take on Israel.

Jerry Baumchen

[JoeWeber 2,358]

1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Hi Joe,

Re:  folks with multiple citizenships

Hmmm, something about the pot calling the kettle black?

Jerry Baumchen

I'm an EU resident not a citizen, yet. 

[JoeWeber 2,358]

1 hour ago, SkyDekker said:

Is it just the passport you object to, or all these Americans who say they are Irish, or Scottish, or English etc. subject to the same level of treatment? At what point do you become less American?

That's as beside the point as this manufactured brouhaha over my observing that the detainees hold dual citizenship. I explained why I included that fact a few times and if that's not satisfactory so be it. Too bad there seems so little interest in the actual matter.

[riggerrob 563]

Will some one please explain dual-citizenship to me?

Back when I was a child, a person needed to surrender their first passport and renounce citizenship in their country of birth before they could become a full citizen in a second country.

This process annoys me because the bulk of "Canadian citizens" that we have had to rescue or ransom from some chaotic, war-torn shit-hole in African or Asian held two passports. At first glance, they looked and sounded like native-born citizens of that chaotic shit-hole.

[riggerrob 563]

Paying to release hostages is a bad practice because the bulk of hostage-taking foot-soldiers are just desperately poor Somali or Afghan or  ... farmers or fishermen who were displaced from honest employment by the latest civil war. Few of them hold fanatical religious views or even understand national politics. Forget about trying to explain international politics to them. These days, the majority of hostages are taken purely as commodities in "kidnap for profit" schemes.

As for Moscow holding westerners hostage ... Moscow is just proving that they do not obey international diplomatic customs/traditions/treaties.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

19 hours ago, JoeWeber said:

That's as beside the point as this manufactured brouhaha over my observing that the detainees hold dual citizenship. I explained why I included that fact a few times and if that's not satisfactory so be it. Too bad there seems so little interest in the actual matter.

Meh I agreed with your original post. Not much more to say about it. 

[SkyDekker 1,155]

18 hours ago, riggerrob said:

Will some one please explain dual-citizenship to me?

Back when I was a child, a person needed to surrender their first passport and renounce citizenship in their country of birth before they could become a full citizen in a second country.

This process annoys me because the bulk of "Canadian citizens" that we have had to rescue or ransom from some chaotic, war-torn shit-hole in African or Asian held two passports. At first glance, they looked and sounded like native-born citizens of that chaotic shit-hole.

If that is the case, then not long before you were born, there was no such thing as a Canadian Citizen, that didn't exist until 1947.

Dual citizenship was made specifically legal in 1977.

 

[wmw999 2,179]

I have dual citizens in my family; I have a feeling their story reflects those of lots of others. US (as well as Canadian and most European and Japanese) citizenship has a certain cachet, in part because most people know that those countries will stand behind their citizens to some degree. They negotiate from a position of power and wealth. Anyone who travels would want that.

The other citizenship eases repeated trips to the other country (or residence, which happens). And especially for people from places like Iran that they’ve had to abandon through no fault of their own, and who actually want to return there “when things change,” it’s a way of self-identifying as from there.

I know Palestinians who are native-born US refugees who still consider themselves to be Palestinian. The Palestinian refugee in my family considers himself fully American — but not all of his 11 siblings do, and he no longer flies in the US if he can avoid it because he wasn’t treated like one after 9/11. There are Jews using their religion to get citizenship in Israel, as well as many Americans of European extraction using their family connections (Irish-born grandfather etc) to secure dual citizenship.

 It’s a global world; emigrating is not always a one-way trip forever, as it generally was even 100 years ago. People will use tools, and sometimes that tool will be used wrong, but we haven’t outlawed hammers because sometimes they’re used to murder

Wendy P.