Packer's Liability

[theonlyski 3]

airtwardo

Quote

On the drop zone from first to last load with no lunch break? Not doing tandems while "supervising?"

Actually I can't ever recall there not being at least one rigger in the packing room during the day, when I'm there anyway.

YMMV

Depending on the DZ and time of year, sometimes you can't throw a rock without hitting 3 riggers.

Now, getting them to fess up to being riggers when there's a boogie going on and a reserve that needs packing... well, that's a different story.

"I may be a dirty pirate hooker...but I'm not about to go stand on the corner." iluvtofly
DPH -7, TDS 578, Muff 5153, SCR 14890
I'm an asshole, and I approve this message

[fencebuster 7]

To win a malpractice claim against a lawyer for damages, you have to prove that but for the errors you would have won the case. That's a pretty steep hill to climb and not many lawyers are going to take that case on a contingency basis.

Charlie Gittins, 540-327-2208
AFF-I, Sigma TI, IAD-I
MEI, CFI-I, Senior Rigger
Former DZO, Blue Ridge Skydiving Adventures

[chuckakers 370]

fencebuster

To win a malpractice claim against a lawyer for damages, you have to prove that but for the errors you would have won the case. That's a pretty steep hill to climb and not many lawyers are going to take that case on a contingency basis.

And?

Chuck Akers
D-10855
Houston, TX

[Southern_Man 0]

DrewEckhardt

***

Where I jump most often - commercially utilized parachute equipment is packed either by or under the supervision of a federally licensed rigger.

On the drop zone from first to last load with no lunch break? Not doing tandems while "supervising?"

Quote

Is it different at your DZ?

To my knowledge the FAA has never challenged one of my DZs' definitions of "supervision," although I expect a lawyer could with decent chances of success.

I can only speak to the two dropzones where I have worked. I currently work at a 2 Cessna drop zone. I personally pack (rough estimate) ~80% of the rigs that get used for student and tandem jumps. When we are busy there are some instructional staff that pack as well. Some of them are certificated as well. If there is nylon on the floor being packed then I am in the hanger supervising (licensed jumpers packing their own gear excepted). The longest break I would ever take from that would be to go to the bathroom. Sun-up to Sun-down, usually with time to grab a slice or two of pizza from the staff room. When I jump it is on first load before there is nylon on the floor.

We have a total of 5 riggers on staff at a small drop zone. When I am not able to be there one of the other riggers supervises the packing floor. At the other drop zone I have worked at there was always a rigger in charge of the packing floor.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[skygypsie 2]

Ok, I know by looking at the length of this post, it may sway some from reading, but you new to skydive WORK, those
"I don't really give a @!*# " Packers, or those who know someone who "I wannabee a packer, so I can hang out at a fun, good time, partying place, with some really cool peeps, so I can wear one of those necklaces that people will ask why are you wearing a nail around your neck & cause I'm a toys r' us kid"...listen up !
I'm troubled by questions of liability about packing before parents ok a 16 year old, to start packing student / tandem rigs.
Packing is my profession & baby !
Yes, I know packers are slighted & some / most are less than respected on the dz staff totem poll, ironically by some of those same up jumpers who beg us to pack for them

'06 to '11, I've been full time Lead Staff Packer at dz's, I've contracted with.
I started pro packing (also skydiving) when I was 50.
It's hard ass physically & emotional draining at times !
I use to love it, proud of it, but the whole dynamic of skydiving & 'new age' staffing has changed so much just in the few years I've been exposed to it, its almost disheartening.
I can only imagine some of the not so pleasing nor safety conscientious changes you "pioneers" have seen coming about

A question of legal liability rather than would a 16 year old have the maturity, focus, understanding of, to be a GOOD student & tandem rig packer......REALLY ???

The past 2 seasons I jump in when the floor is falling behind, so as operations don't have a shut down waiting for gear ...(Jet) Fuel is costly !!!
I will always pack ALL my & my husband's sport & tandem rigs.

Since, I've packed over 10,000 tandem packs & at least that many student & up jumper rigs, with only 1 mal leading to cutaway the 1st weekend I packed tandems.
That 1 tandem mal to cutaway was enough !
I was taught well & mentored by some of the best of the best:
Brad Badtke, Al Binnebose, Bill Hasenfus, Paul Olsen, JT Hill, on Strong's & Michael Wadkins: UPT - Vector Sigma...thank you !
It is not just an: "oh, so that's how you do you it"...!!!
I've been staff at some of the best dzs & sadly, some not so much...have packed for a good ol' boy of The Liberty Parachute Team (miss ya JT ), tandems at Couch Freaks a time or 2
One of the BEST in particular, putting up over 150 tandems /day running hot loads back to back from a King Air, packing close to 40 tandems/ day, 14 hr days on the floor-7 days/ week, 6 months straight... with 100 plus degrees in the hangar, the fabric wrapping around your arms like oiled saran wrap, the beat of the sweat drops pattering from your nose, chin & eye lids not necessarily to the beat of the back ground music...perhaps to screaming students waiting for, or who have just completed their 1st tandem, barking dogs or screaming kids running through your lines & sometimes your only bath room break is at refueling...def no lunch breaks !!
I have never ever deviated from what I know , nor how I pack !

One reason I gave up Lead & Full time positions is due to lack of integrity I've seen come with just hiring ANYBODY, just to have a Packer on the floor & to "get it in the bag & close it....they're meant to open..."
Though courses are taught by reputable riggers, too many times the passed packer modifies shortly after he begins, learning the pay is slight, the numbers make the pay !

* Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was.
At the same dz, I 'experienced' a Packer;who only flat packs tandems, teach a course to 'students off the street', after she placed an ad in the paper & charged $25/ a head.
All ok'd & in the know by dz mgmt.

Sadly, what I can't condone, I don't support...
just saying

* BTW: don't forget your Packers...forget the tips !
A simple thank you would be great !!!

[Andy9o8 0]

chuckakers

***To win a malpractice claim against a lawyer for damages, you have to prove that but for the errors you would have won the case. That's a pretty steep hill to climb and not many lawyers are going to take that case on a contingency basis.

And?

...And... blueberry pie is excellent when made with just a hint of added vanilla and rhubarb.

Und don't ask me about ze var!

[pchapman 261]

skygypsie

* Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was.

Speaking of which, ahem, what is "bridging"? Never heard that term before. Doesn't show up in a search of Gear & Rigging. Hope it is a regional term.

[mark 102]

skygypsie

* Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was.

Now you have experienced another.

What is "bridging?"

Mark

[stratostar 5]

Quote

* Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was.

Ok I'll bite.... Is this a local term you all use or is this new lingo in the packing mat world? Cuz I'll be damned if it's in the Poynters manual Volume 1 or volume 2, can't find it in Beckmons manuals as well.

Do you even have a riggers ticket?

What is wrong with a rigger who chooses to only flat pack tdm's? What is wrong teaching a class for 25 a head, when done by...... get this, a licensed FAA rigger! I mean after all the DZ mgr ok'd it, and it's their dz to run as they please, if you don't agree go open your own dz and run as you see fit too.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[skygypsie 2]

Now I'm NOT a Rigger, but my Basic "Bridging" Explanation:
On some tandems, setting the brakes by the canopy, not by the risers.
Certain tandem canopies with no brake settings, by
attaching rubber bands on outside D lines to shorten (relieve slack from) & secure brake lines...
Why would a manufacturer do this ?
In theory, it makes for an automatic brake release & canopy openings slower & softer, bridged (without brake settings).

Hey, thanks for reading my 'novel' !!

[skygypsie 2]

stratostar

Quote

* Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was.

Ok I'll bite.... Is this a local term you all use or is this new lingo in the packing mat world? Cuz I'll be damned if it's in the Poynters manual Volume 1 or volume 2, can't find it in Beckmons manuals as well.

Do you even have a riggers ticket?

What is wrong with a rigger who chooses to only flat pack tdm's? What is wrong teaching a class for 25 a head, when done by...... get this, a licensed FAA rigger! I mean after all the DZ mgr ok'd it, and it's their dz to run as they please, if you don't agree go open your own dz and run as you see fit too.

Sorry, but where did I say it was a licensed Rigger who taught the course.
Why do I need a Riggers Ticket to comment ?
So, some of us in our locale & biz refer to it, & know it as "bridging (to join by), but it doesn't matter what some of us "tag" the term or procedure...does it ?
The point I was making: the Rigger I was referring to not only didn't know the procedure existed & also did not/ could not perform a packing procedure, he was unaware of.
He had recently received his ticket, but ultimately lost his ticket, after many concerns & failing a re take of the course's test outs.
The individual who advertised & taught a tandem packing class, was an A license jumper, at the time & part time packer...UNDER NO SUPERVISION OF A CERTIFIED SENIOR NOR MASTER RIGGER !
This in part, are some of those same less than desirable changes going on in the past couple years I'm referring to.
Short cut training & instruction just to have a body fill the position, or to increase productivity & dz accomplishment numbers !!
These were not reserve type flat packs (compared to pro pack, packed on the ground) she was specifically & solely teaching for tandem canopies.
They were accordion type flat packs, much like packs with s/l canopies.
However, I often use the flat pack technique when clearing step throughs, etc..but accordion type flat packs....not a fav of TI's & their openings !

I understand there are many ways to pack tandems !

* Best: follow mfg. recommendations !

The procedure I'm talking about, check out :

Strong Enterprises Owners Manual TNT System 12/3 4-53
(i.e. page 83: 4.7.3.4, 4.7.3.5 & ***4.7.3.6 illustrations & instructions)

[Fast 0]

travisprill

In our highly litigious society, I'm curious if this is a concern since most dz's don't carry insurance and an independent contractor is not an actual employee.

No DZs carry insurance for any kind of liability related to skydiving. It doesn't exist.

There is absolutely liability from one end to another as ANY person on a dropzone. Just being a sport jumper on the same load as a tandem could get you named in a lawsuit (although not with much possibility of having to actually pay out). The american legal system certainly has its issues.

The more or less that you are involved in the activity where someone gets hurt changes your exposure. It also depends how willing the DZ is to protect its people when things go sour.

~D
Where troubles melt like lemon drops Away above the chimney tops That's where you'll find me.
Swooping is taking one last poke at the bear before escaping it's cave - davelepka

[stratostar 5]

Quote

Sorry but where did I say it was licensed Rigger who taught the course.

My bad misread that paragraph. Regardless nothing wrong with flat packing, not my first choice in today's world, but nothing wrong with it, works for Strong TDM reserves. Who cares what the TI's like, it's about packing and if the DZO or head rigger cleared that method, then fuck what the TI's like or want done, they can do it (pack) if they like.

Quote

She was an A license jumper, at the time & part time packer !

Not your dz or your packing mat, nor your decision to make, you can always report violations of the FAR's to the FAA.

Quote

but my Basic "Bridging" Explanation:

FYI: we still call that stowing or setting the brakes in rigger lingo.(riggers use rigger lingo and not engineering and design lingo) It's kind of like inventing a new name for a tracking dive and calling by a new made up name, rather then what it is, a tracking dive.

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Packing is my profession & baby !

One old fart that we both know, was really bummed to learn you had moved from the area...your slow opening mode kept his ole bones from crunching!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[skygypsie 2]

Like I said I am NOT a rigger, but when I take on the responsibility for other's best outcome, especially for pay...I like to know why & how (engineering & design, if you will), to do the job correctly & to the best of my ability & best outcome for all...right from the get go.
My husband, my husband & I on our tandem fun jumps, good friends I've come to love, or strangers I don't know & most likely will ever see again...deserve no less !!!
Sorry if my using a word; not of some, nor a rigger's normal vocabulary to describe a procedure, upsets you so.

As far as f@#% the TI's & the pack jobs they jump due to some packing techniques...must not be a problem for some riggers' theory to hold up dz operations due to tandem cutaways & reserve packs needed. Least of all wear & tear on mains & reserves...all very costly !
But hey, then again some riggers don't mind getting paid for frequent reserve packs...or the reasoning they can pack their own..bet a lot of dz mgmt., wouldn't mind holds in operations for a TI to pack the gear he has to jump ! ?

** Geesh, good thing I didn't bring up "cats eye-double cats eye", "monkey fist", "apex", "pillow", "hackey", "power boy", "diaper", "a mariyln monroe", " a mae west" "inversions"...would really have caused a raucous

BTW: I've been multiple season staffer at 2 oldest running dz's in this Country, as Lead Packer.
I've taught many packing courses to students & new tandem packers UNDER THE DIRECT SUPERVISION OF A SENIOR &/or MASTER RIGGER & IN ACCORDANCE OF MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS-RECOMMENDATIONS !!!
Both original DZO's have been phenomenal mentors, as well

[skygypsie 2]

airtwardo

Quote

Packing is my profession & baby !

One old fart that we both know, was really bummed to learn you had moved from the area...your slow opening mode kept his ole bones from crunching!

Wow, thank you for that Twardo. He called me on his way back to FL., after AirVenture & your daily jump ins were concluded, to thank me...saying best opening he ever had.
I thought he was just being kind & the ever charming fella he is
Brad & I miss all the experiences we had with & around The Liberty Parachute Team...some memorable, educational & entertaining times, for sure.
Also, having met one of my favorite female idols ever...
your Capt. Mom
Give her & ol' JT a big hug from me !
Tell him I'll pack for him... & for ANY Of YOU, ANYWHERE, ANYTIME !
You just made my day & all those packing daze, so worth it

[gowlerk 1,914]

Just for the record, I am also a rigger who never heard of "bridging". But after you explained I know what it is. Also for the record, I checked with the manufacturer of one of those type of canopies with no brake setting after seeing someone do this. (Icarus USA) They do not recommend that, they recommend you just do a normal pro-pack and leave the excess brake line loose. That's what riggers do, they check with the maker when in doubt.

Even so, I would jump your packjob any day. Keep up the good work.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[skygypsie 2]

gowlerk

Just for the record, I am also a rigger who never heard of "bridging". But after you explained I know what it is. Also for the record, I checked with the manufacturer of one of those type of canopies with no brake setting after seeing someone do this. (Icarus USA) They do not recommend that, they recommend you just do a normal pro-pack and leave the excess brake line loose. That's what riggers do, they check with the maker when in doubt.Even so, I would jump your packjob any day. Keep up the good work.

Thank you !!!

Any packing questions I have had or requests to modify, I do just that...
check with the rigger, then WE check mfg reqs!
* In most cases, the rigger I check with is my husband.
He's also a TI who jumps these rigs (12 yrs: over 3500 jumps w/ TI rated '06 @ 2000 as tandems), AFFI, S/L, IAD, Coach, Pro-rated, Aviation A&P with IA...
so yah, I pretty much listen to him, when it comes to anything skydiving related, anyway
He's the one who initially got me into skydiving- staff packing & taught me.
We own all tandem manufacturer manuals-updates on CD & written text.
In the case I'm speaking of, reqs require it on some of their canopies (some Strong Sets).
This was one of those canopies.

The term "bridging"...not sure when/where/ who or how it came about.
It's just a word describing a procedure some mfg require in packing their canopies.
The procedure is something a Rigger & Packers should know if their dz jumps those rigs.
A word some use describing it, doesn't matter.

Another issue I had, they did have Vector / Sigma tandem canopies.
Mandatory manufacturer's closing with a power tool, NOT pull up cord.

These packers didn't, nor had one between each other to share. I had several, gifting each tandem packer with one...not because I'm a sweet heart, but because it's how certain rigs HAVE to be closed !!!
Also a concern, their tandem packing =
a combo pro, accordion type flat packed.
Have no clue if it has a term...never saw it before !
They cleared the lines from the canopy to the bag.
When I asked why they did it that way...response:
"that's how we were taught..it saves time..."
Lots of cutaways at that DZ
Most tandem packers there, didn't know how to true pro-pack !

Their packers were taught how to pack by the Rigger who was unfamiliar with this procedure.
I also witnessed him combine 2 stows in one rubber band, because he didn't want to change the broken rubber band out.
He was not a jumper...just got his ticket for the reserve pack $ & the dz needed an on site rigger...go figure !!!!
Soon thereafter, his ticket was pulled.
Exact reasoning why he was called out to re-test, don't know...don't care.
He had no business as a Rigger, nor in my opinion on a dz..as his concern for the safety & lives' in skydiving was just a few $ in his pocket & a bottle of booze (probably many cases, in his case)

Once "bridging" was performed on the required canopies, feed back from the TI's jumping them:
some insisted on continuing the procedure, some didn't care, some didn't know it existed, but those same noticed a remarkable difference in opening after the procedure !

DZ mgmt. didn't have a clue one way or another.

This is what brings to my initial posts.
Some dzs are hiring just any kid off the street, just to get a rig on a back.
Jumping packers don't last, after they buy their own gear & only pay a few $ for a jump, they're all done on the packing floor.
Afterall, no consideration, respect, lousy pay, grunt work, no air time...who wants to be a Packer ?!

The days of dz bums (true die hard, dedicated, full timers who live on dzs, travel the circuit for year 'round work..live & breath skydiving), has dwindled.

Replaced by kids who require even less pay, who think it's more than enough & great time to hang with cool skydivers, so their friends in school, think they are cool, too & some pretty sassy 'non skydiving' chicks who are more interested in the male to female ratio...
looking to find their place on the packing floor.
We "chicks dig skydivers"

I've always been known to say it like "I" see it...not meant to offend anyone

* FYI: @ 8000 of my 10,000 tandem packs have been Strong Sets.
I'm one of those that logs my packs...keeps my pay honest...became habit !

[JamMasterJay 0]

justme12001

you pay for the pack job....not the opening!

yup, your pack job is like a prostitute. you're not paying for the sex...you're paying for them to leave.

Truth is the distilled meaning of facts, for any truth refuted by a fact becomes a fallacy.

[tristansdad 0]

Packer packs your main and it malfunctions. Cut it away and use the other parachute. The only issue I can see is a financial one if you chop your shit into a swamp never to be seen again. Then you would have to have video footage that shows beyond a doubt it was packer error. Good luck with that. If someone rides a malfunction to low or takes it all the way down well tough shit. You failed to do what you were trained to do.

[JohnMitchell 14]

skygypsie

Quote

A question of legal liability rather than would a 16 year old have the maturity, focus, understanding of, to be a GOOD student & tandem rig packer......REALLY ???

Depends on the kid. One of our kids, 16, nope, didn't have the desire to do a good job. The other one, 11 years old, became an outstanding packer who took pride in his work.


*** packing close to 40 tandems/ day

Pretty impressive. I don't know if I could do that.

Quote

Side note: experienced a rigger who didn't know how to, nor what "bridging" was.

Well, you just stumped an instructor with that term too.

Quote

At the same dz, I 'experienced' a Packer;who only flat packs tandems, teach a course to 'students off the street', after she placed an ad in the paper & charged $25/ a head.
All ok'd & in the know by dz mgmt.

Maybe Mgt. getting a cut? Sounds like a good business and those folks will not be packing anyone's parachute without further instruction. But in the meantime they can brag about how they are "certified" to pack "shoots and stuff."

[skygypsie 2]

Agreed, agreed, agreed

No doubt there are exceptions to the young age of packers.

One of the best packers I've experienced, the 12 yr old son of a DZO.

Young packers of jumpers, have a clue...it's seriously instilled in them.

The 'off the street' youth I was referring to...are just that...
having no prior skydiving / skydiver connection, nor virtual understanding the depths of the position !

RE: 40 tandem packs/ day...those days are done.

Climbing age bracket mandates it

The past couple year's @ 20
I'm going to enjoy semi retirement from here on out

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

Then you would have to have video footage that shows beyond a doubt it was packer error. Good luck with that.

Funny thing about that...

After 'the kinks' got worked out with the 'Safety Star' / 'Safety Flyer' - a lot of square reserves started hitting the market.

There was at one time a 'Square Reserve' designation on the riggers ticket.

Took mine to the local rigger when I was a left coaster - had the qualification on the ticket and a good reputation.

IN FACT - this rigger was SO conscientious that every I&R was recorded.

~ Doing 8 ways one Saturday, my main turned into a screamin' ball of shit...chopped & unpacked the reserve, which only seemed to slow me down marginally.

Looked like one whole rear riser group was over the nose...I shit, screamed, yanked, yelled, cussed, prayed & pulled on it some more.

Much of it came off after about rolling the nose inside out and I started swinging with a hook knife at the line still over...missed it & got a good one, which precluded any MORE hacking away.

Landed HARD in a spin, hip & leg had strawberries right through the jumpsuit & Levis...another jumper & I headed to the shack to 'review the re-pack replay' in a less than jovial mood.

Yup - right there on the screen plain as death...almost had to work at fuckin' it up that bad!

Within minutes that 'permanent record' became extinct & no more I&R's were ever filmed by that rigger again...

TO his credit however - he sent my canopy to the manufacturer for repairs which included line & panel replacement, on his dime...& gave ME a bottle of Jack!

" Ya pays yer money & takes yer chances! "

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[ianmdrennan 2]

Quote

Remember - you pay for a packjob, not the opening.

Bullshit, and a reason I am particular about what packers I use (when I use them, and it's rare). I expect people to take pride in their job, and do the best they can. The expressed mindset is a pet peeve of mine, and totally unacceptable IMO.

I absolutely will not use a packer that says the above, ever. If you aren't going to pack it like you're going to jump it - stay away from my rig.

That said, JUMPING means that sometimes strange shit is gonna happen from time to time, and you just have to accept that - whether you use a packer or not.

Imagine if your rigger said that line of bullshit to you regarding your reserve?

Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[doorgirl 0]

I'm mostly concerned with the parents narrow focus on the legal consequences of a pack job gone bad. Will this kid be able to handle the emotional consequences if someone ends up badly injured on a rig where (s)he packed the main?

I would be more worried about making sure my kid was mature enough to understand just how much "responsibility" (s)he was taking on than just assessing the legal risk. Look at how messed up people can get when they made a bad decision behind the wheel that ended in life changing impacts for others. Now consider those that caused life changing injuries even when they did everything right.

I have no problem with the right kids packing. I just hope that all these considerations are thought through to start. I do applaud the parents in your scenario for considering that there are risks to this part time gig, they just need to expand their horizon a bit more.