Using hook knives

[Orange1 0]

This question comes partly from a discussion on hook knives that has emerged in one of the Incidents threads.

First DZ I jumped at, when i graduated from static line to freefall i was given a rig with a hook knife on.
2nd DZ when I asked why there was no hook knife on the freefall rigs was told: for novices they are usually more trouble than not.

So, questions:
- what situations does one use a hook knife for (other than line-over on reserve, or CRW)?
- how much 'experience' would usually be required before one is considered familiar enough to know what to do with a hook knife?
- how much time do you really have to extract and use a hook knife during a high-speed mal? (Would you use it in a horseshoe situation?)

I know there are likely to be no absolutely hard and fast answers to these questions, but opinions - especially from jumpers who have had to actually use their hook knives - would be welcome.

Edited to add from Remster's post in the France incident thread:

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Hook knifes are a complicated subject as far as I am concerened.

I think it was Derek (Hookandswoop) who rigged a mal in a packjob voluntarely to see how easy/diffiucult it would be to find the line and cut it during an actual mal. I think it was a line over that he packed. He knew he woul dhave a mal, and knew which line it was that he needed to cut.

Well, he couldnt isolate the line during the mal itself. If someone wants to find the post he made to report this, it should be in one of the forum

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[Malta_Dog 0]

From a complete newbie...

Horseshoe?? I think that your neck, elbow and shoulders need to have a 270° rotation arc for you to successfully use a hookknife in this situation...

This being said I have a pair of hookknives but I don't think that they can be used in many situations...

All your dropzone are belong to us!!!!111!

[apixel 0]

You can use it to cut the seatbelt that has you hanging outside of the plane when you should be in freefall.

[billvon 2,434]

>- what situations does one use a hook knife for (other than line-over on reserve, or CRW)?

Oxygen system problems, student in tow, PC out the door are a few. And if you have a reserve lineover, a hookknife gives you something to do.

>- how much 'experience' would usually be required before one is
>considered familiar enough to know what to do with a hook knife?

?? Never seen any level of experience suggested for hookknife usage. Using a hookknife is like doing CPR on someone who's not breathing. You may screw it up, break ribs etc but they're dead anyway if you don't.

>- how much time do you really have to extract and use a hook knife
> during a high-speed mal? (Would you use it in a horseshoe
> situation?)

If the landing isn't survivable, you have the rest of your life. Generally if there's a main problem that's not cut awayable, I would try down to about 1000 feet before giving up and cutting away/opening my reserve.

[feuergnom 22]

have you been there and done that?

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[ryoder 1,400]

TomAiello used a hookknife to clear a lineover on a BASE jump. You can problably find the video on skydivingmovies.com. It is also in Continuum 2.

A TI at my DZ used one to clear a lineover on a tandem reserve.

At my old DZ. one was used by a pilot to cut free a static line instructor in tow via a static line around his ankle.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[apixel 0]

I missed witnessing it by one load. I'm glad I did, because knowing it happened was bad enough. Being there might have traumatized me. Both the jumper and someone in the plane were cutting feverishly. I saw the seatbelt being picked up from the middle of the landing area. Not sure if it fell there on it's own, or was left there after the landing.

[vt1977 0]

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- how much 'experience' would usually be required before one is considered familiar enough to know what to do with a hook knife?

In the UK, wearing at least one knife is compulsory for all licensed skydivers.

Vicki

[Orange1 0]

Thanks.

(AFAIK all planes here carrying static line students have to have a knife on the plane for in-tow situations - i was referring to when you'd use under canopy)

Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun.

[kallend 1,648]

A friend of main cutaway his main while unstable and somehow ended up with the lines of the main tangled around his legs leaving him hanging upside down. He cut it away with his hook knife.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Zep 0]

Best person to ask about hook knives would of been Pete Reynolds

Gone fishing

[bch7773 0]

I wear a hook knife for one reason...
Its better to wear a 6 ounce chunk of metal for 1000 jumps and never need it, then it is to have 1 jump where you would need it and you don't have one.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[mdrejhon 8]

That reminds me.... I do need to get a hook knife for my new rig (Got it during my last dropzone visit...I've jumped it only 3 times now).

As noted everywhere, there are apparently many excellent reasons for having a hook knife "just in case..." (and from what I read in literature elsewhere too.)

I'd hate to have a lineover on my reserve, or have my reserve stuck over the airplane.... Sounds like a good $15 investment!

[airtwardo 6]

Well, he couldnt isolate the line during the mal itself.

***

And then on the other hand....
there is a great vid on skydiving movies that show a 'real' base jump..
Tom A. I think...
instantly locating and cutting the proper line of a
line over on a BASE jump...as he's turning toward what would have been a serious wall strike.

Having and using a hook knife made a serious incident into an inconvenience.

...I used a knife twice so far to 'save my butt' and also always have one with me on every jump...
...two during demos.

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Avion 0]

This is my position too.

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I wear a hook knife for one reason...
Its better to wear a 6 ounce chunk of metal for 1000 jumps and never need it, then it is to have 1 jump where you would need it and you don't have one.

I've only see videos on www.skydivingmovies.com of cases where a hook knife might be useful, usually premature deployments that result in an entanglement. Come to think of it, the guy that got his ankle tangled in the other guy's suspension line when attempting a Mr. Bill probably would have found one useful. Since he was Brittish, I wonder if he had one and forgot he did, hmm...

In any case, I got one and would cut a line over on my main and attempt a rear riser landing rather than chop it. My intructors say that I should actually do that before suggesting it, hmm...

As for how much time you have, it depends on the mal, high speed, low speed, and how much altitude you've got. I imagine it can range from seconds to minutes.

[Frenchy68 0]

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In any case, I got one and would cut a line over on my main and attempt a rear riser landing rather than chop the main

You would in any case? You'd better practice hard, and keep track of the altitude...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Avion 0]

I still fly a big, slow canopy and open high in order to play with it. Good point though, I'll have to reconsider, if I was to start opening lower or flying a smaller, faster canopy.

Thanks

[Frenchy68 0]

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I still fly a big, slow canopy and open high in order to play with it. I'll have to reconsider, if I was to open lower or start flying a smaller, faster canopy.

Thanks

Just be careful. Things happen faster under a malfunctiunning canopy.

Be safe.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Avion 0]

Quote

[Be safe.

That's the plan.

You know, I'm surprised at how many people, including highly experienced ones, that jump without one, and also by how many people point at me and say, "Oh look, how cute. the newbie's got a hook knife. Like he thinks it's going to make a difference."

Well I do, and hopefully it will!

A difference for the better that is.

[tonyhathaway 0]

Most of the reasons posted here are NOT going to be the reason you need a hook knife. You plan for one thing, and something else happens. Thats so often the way it is. Surprises are always around the corner.

My O.C.D. has me chasing a dream my A.D.D. won't let me catch.

[Avion 0]

I think there is some thing else worth mentioning here. I far as I can find out, line overs are more often brake lines and less often suspension lines. The line over I am talking about cutting is a brake line. It would be much easier to simply unstow a toggle and cut a brake line, than to locate a suspension line, reach up above the links, grab the line, and then try to cut it.

Anybody who's cut a brake line care to comment on how they recognized it was a brake line that went over?

[pilotdave 0]

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In any case, I got one and would cut a line over on my main and attempt a rear riser landing rather than chop it.

I'm just curious why. Ever had any type of spinning malfunction? A lineover might fly straight, but might not. Ever practiced pulling your hook knife out fast? Ever had any training in identifying which line is causing the lineover? Ever landed on rear risers?

Ever practiced your cutaway procedures?

Trying to cut the line is just a waste of valuable time, in my opinion. Cutaway procedures are quick, easy, and well practiced. Fiddle with that hook knife for a few seconds and you might suddenly find yourself under 1000 feet with no idea what to do. Bad things happen faster than good things.

So why try to cut a line? Save some time and maybe some money if all goes well?

Dave

[bob.dino 0]

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Save some time and maybe some money if all goes well?

I don't think getting new control lines is going to be cheaper or quicker than a reserve repack.

[pilotdave 0]

Depends where it's cut. Below the cat's eye should be cheap. And speaking of that, I forgot to tell my rigger to replace mine when I got my reserve repacked. Freaking velcro on my right glove tore the crap out of mine.

Also, depends what gets lost in the cutaway. I priced the spares for my old reflex at something like $3-400 if I lost the freebag and handles. 2 reserve pilot chutes, freebag, decorative pop top cover, and two handles. Not to mention possibly losing the main.

Dave

[hookncrater 0]

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In any case, I got one and would cut a line over on my main and attempt a rear riser landing rather than chop it.

That's just silly.

Imagine this, you deploy... have a mal you think is a lineover which starts to spin, gently or otherwise and build up speed. Instead of just chopping and getting a nice new canopy overhead you decide to go for your hook knife and try to cut the line you think is the right one, remember you are still spinning towards the ground, perhaps even picking up speed without realizing it. You cut the line... oops, that didn't fix it, apparently a cell blew out during deployment when the line tore its way acress the topskin, and now you are l o w having spent more time sorting lines than you realized in the confusion. All the ways to get out of trouble you learned "reaseaching" and "studying" start rolling through your mind like "canopy transfer", "am I exceeding 78mph", "was that my first alarm or second I heard", etc... too late... here comes the ground... but don't worry you'll have plenty of time to think about it while you are lying in the hospital.

Unless you don't trust your rigger, why not just chop it, and be done with it. Hook knives are for reserves or other catastrophic occasions.

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when in doubt... hook it!