Safe? - Photo inside

[Samurai136 0]

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By your own account then, half the TMs that responded to the poll in the instructor's forum, and said they would possibly participate in a similar jump, are "fucked in the head" too. It appears not everyone shares your sentiment.

I didn't realize there was a poll on this topic. Thanks!
I think the final tally of tandem intructors will show a conclusive, resounding "NO!".

20 votes is just a dip in the bucket. Depending how you interpret the results, the conditional yes option conforms with the "not with students" option. The unconditional yes response will definately continue to drop below the present %15 figure.

%85 of tandem instructors are saying No, or maybe with an experienced skydiver.

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Your tandem fatality example is an apples and oranges comparison. The camera flyer flew above the tandem during deployment and had a collision killing the TM.

No, it is an apples and apples comparisson. The camera flyer was intentionally increasing risks to get the shot. Both camera flyer and instructor were highly experienced skydivers and knew what they were doing. That is the salient point between the two. Even the "best conditions" for a tandem hybrid with all experienced skydivers is not good. Certainly at first there will be no fatalities, I believe it can be done safely. But over time pushing the envelope when a tandem is involved, someone will get killed. Most likely the instructor and/ or passenger.

Tandems are not "regular" skydives.

"Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian
Ken

[Liemberg 0]

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Exactly at how many years in sport are you granted the mind-reading skill to know what my mindset is?

No straightforward answer possible to that one.

But clicking once on the link in your signature line gives most of us a clue, I would think...

BTW 'snap value judgements' happen all the time, everywhere - just because in real life often there isn't time to get to the bottom of things. If I were in need of an imidiate 'skydiving safety snap value judgement' (because I had to make a "go/no go" type decision) I would take Stratostars over yours in a heartbeat.

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[Mixoligist 0]

These forums are like a group meeting in "One flew over the cuckoo's nest"


The question was----Safe ?
The answer is always----No.

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Better you than me
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[matthewcline 0]

Common sense, safety and concern for the student should be global, just like stupidity.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[Hawkins121 0]

Thats a sweet picture.

[kelpdiver 2]

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By your own account then, half the TMs that responded to the poll in the instructor's forum, and said they would possibly participate in a similar jump, are "fucked in the head" too. It appears not everyone shares your sentiment.

heehee - tiny self selecting samples are more useful when they vaguely agree with you, eh?

At least my 'statistically invalid' survey had a few hundred respondants.

[popsjumper 2]

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...You seem a lot like the grumpy old-schoolers that sit on their lawn-chairs at the DZ most of the day poo-pooing the "newbies" and their "pocket-rockets".

and then...

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If I had a penchant for making snap value judgements about people without bothering to get to know them first maybe I would. But, as it is, I don't.

oh, the irony of it all.

The situation is not safe. period.

I like the way Billvon put it and I especially like the way Stratostar put it. I'm an old fart and safety is more important to me than some others.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[mattjw916 2]

Wow, you soooo missed my point. I said that's NOT what I thought. Maybe you should have read what I wrote more carefully.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[speedy 0]

Actually Mr. popsjumper, he is making a point about posters that peeves me a lot on here. The point that people make snap judgmental decisions about another posters character based on very little information about the poster.

Any YOU are also doing another pet peeve of mine, which is failing to read the posts you are replying to. There is nothing ironic in what mattjw916 posted to which you replied.

Dave

Fallschirmsport Marl

[mattjw916 2]

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But clicking once on the link in your signature line gives most of us a clue, I would think...

Because I thought a TV commercial was _funny_ I am somehow a "danger" to others? Apparently you don't have humor in the Netherlands I guess.

edit: punctuation

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[mattjw916 2]

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heehee - tiny self selecting samples are more useful when they vaguely agree with you, eh?

At least my 'statistically invalid' survey had a few hundred respondants.

I don't like the poll either, the wording of it is slanted and there aren't enought options IMHO, but sometimes you go with what you have.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I am somehow a "danger" to others?

No but you saying a student tandem hybrid is fine and worth the picture does show that you could be a danger. I wouldnt take a tandem to someone who felt that picture was worth the wuffos life. I wouldnt consider a DZ that allowed that with a student to be safe. Thats a personal opinion in regards to student safety. Personal safety now that I have a few jumps, well hell Id jump some riskier jumps if they were conducted with as much safe aspects as can be. Im planning my first rodeo, but it wasnt before I sought advice from someone I trust about possible risk factors I may not have thought about.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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I don't like the poll either

Hey I wanted the poll to be black and white, yes or no...because to me a students safety is black and white... I added an option that allowed people who think its a cool idea, but made it to where it was known that it would be a experienced jumper.

What other options do you think it should have had?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[stratostar 5]

I would do that jump too, if I could pick the other jumpers and the passenger was experienced.(quote)

I would even go with you as the passanger if you let me, and I trusted the others because I know and understand the risk involved in doing so.

That is WAY different then a first, second, third jump passanger.

It could get real ugly real quick.
Every person I know that has had a premature opening didn't think it would happen to them, untill it did.


~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo

[wmw999 2,132]

I thought I recognized those jumpsuits .

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Buried 0]

i guess i could elaborate on why i posted this picture. It is a cool pic, but I too believe that tandem 'rides' should focus on the student and try to decrease the risk to both the student and TI. Of course facts are missing from the pic - how many jumps Tandem does the TI have - what experience level are the others in the pic - is this a first tandem for the student or is it an experienced person.
The only thing worth mentioning about Mexico, if the liability within the country - not as sue-centric as the US. this is much different compared to the liability to the sport.

IF something did happen on this jump, people would have been all over it. Depending on the experience of the jumper, there is still a chance (however small) that he could have corked and there was some interaction with the drouge. OR how would you know how the student to react. Many TIs have some interesting stories... How much of this 'chance' is worth it to the student (assuming not experienced) from an experienced perspective? Students never understand whats going on.

Would people feel slightly different if it was a guy student? Would they know the risks any better. I wouldn't expect so.

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[davelepka 4]

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Perhaps you should explain to us why you think this is _so_ dangerous? Knowing what I do about the Sigma tandem system (not an expert though) I don't see anything inordinately dangerous here.
_______

How many ways are there to release the drouge or fire the reserve on a Sigma? Thats how many things are wrong with whats happening. If any one of them is activated, thats three people in big trouble. I'm sure the extra airspeed won't help at that point either.

Thats leaving out the premature opening of the hanger. Yeah, hybrids happen all the time, but the body count will be one higher if it goes wrong this time.

[davelepka 4]

So I read the rest of the thread, and remembered about the student pulling early.

Anytime I'm doing a tandem or student video, and I see any hands 'disappear' (as in reach for something) weather it's TM, JM, or student, I go into early deployment mode (which just means make sure I'm clear of what could happen).

I've seen actually early pulls by tandem and AFF students about 6 or 8 times. It's kinda cool on AFF, because then me and JMs have a free time to play.

Either way it happens, and would really suck in that situation.

I've also seen drouge bridles snap. That one happens quick. Real quick.

[Liemberg 0]

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Apparently you don't have humor in the Netherlands I guess.

That's a snap value judgement!
Nurse Ratched said specifically they were forbidden in group therapy!

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[LawnDart21 0]

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There's no reason to swoop, do CReW at night, or make world record formations in foreign countries from high altitude either but we still have people that are chomping at the bit to do it. Additional risks be damned.

This sport was pioneered by "risk takers". Hell, you think _anyone_ would be able to fly a wingsuit if people hadn't taken big risks during their development?

There is one HUGE difference.....none of your above examples require the gear user to be rated by and approved by the manufacturer on its use.

And I think its safe to say, regardless of how "cool" some people may think that picture is, that the three gentlemen responsible for producing the majority of todays tandem skydiving gear, in all likelyhood, would not approve of such use of thier gear for that type of tandem RW. That is where the difference is. In being that none of your above examples require the jumper to be rated by the manufacture to use the equipment. Mr. Booth, Mr. Strong and Mr. Sherman require manufacturer ratings to use their gear, for among other reasons, to ensure that their gear is used in a manner consistent with their views of what is safe and what is not safe. It is for that very reason that they absolutely do have the authority to say what can and cannot be done with their gear.

I do not believe their is a tandem instructor course out there that does not emphasise that tandem instructors should make every effort to ensure that no other skydiver enters the area of space above them or below them, the tandem skydive "danger zone". To purposely allow anyone to enter that danger zone is to compromise your responsibility as a tandem instrcuctor.

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My other ride is a RESERVE.

[mattjw916 2]

Hey dude, don't bitch at me, I know the deal... bitch at the TI instead. I just thought the picture was cool.

Mr. Booth also hates Microline but most of us still use it.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Mr. Booth also hates Microline but most of us still use it.

Yea but you as an experienced jumper knows the difference between the lines to make your own choice. A first time student would not understand stuff like that

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Liemberg 0]

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Mr. Booth, Mr. Strong and Mr. Sherman

There's always Paratec Next, Performance Variable Omega or Parachutes de France Atom (and I'm sure I'm forgetting a few...)

Once I purchased through the classifieds one of Mr. Booth's, Mr. Strong's or Mr. Sherman's fine tandemrigs and use them for whatever purpose I see fit outside of the USA, well, there's not much either of them can do about it.

Other than that, most TI's anywhere in the world agree on the 'no go area' above and below the tandem. Not because of lawsuits but because of real world (added) dangers...

"Whoever in discussion adduces authority uses not intellect but memory." - Leonardo da Vinci
A thousand words...

[mattjw916 2]

You are still assuming that everyone subscribes to your uber-nanny philosophy of life. Most of the whuffos I know would probably have been totally okay with the jump even after an explanation of the dangers. They're thinking, "Hell, I'm already jumping out of the plane, how much more dangerous can it possibly be?"

Maybe that's her second or third tandem. Maybe she's a packer at the dz. Maybe some people on this forum are too eager to wag a finger at "dangerous" jumpers as some sort of twisted self-affirmation of their own "safety" in the sky. Maybe we don't have all the facts here.

I know if I was a TI, I wouldn't have done the jump... but maybe after a couple thousand tandems I would. I'd video it though.

NSCR-2376, SCR-15080

[stratostar 5]

Very well put.

Mr. Booth, Mr. Strong and Mr. Sherman the three gentlemen responsible for producing the majority of todays tandem skydiving gear, in all likelyhood, would not approve of such use of their gear for that type of tandem RW.(quoting)

Let's not forget all of the testing that went to production of this gear (years worth) seeing how they invented it and have been at it of a long time, I would say that would make them the experts in the field of tandem jumping, I may not agree with their rules on the subject,
but I'm not expert in the in the field of tandem jumping, there for I can't see going against what the experts say, if they say it is bad juju there is a reason why they say it and have the most experiance then anyone else to know.

~

you can't pay for kids schoolin' with love of skydiving! ~ Airtwardo