Canopy Collisions <= 100 ft

[MakeItHappen 15]

A couple of canopy collisions that happened under 100 ft turned out very different.
Results range from fatalities to no injuries.

I'll pose my questions first and then list some sample collisions.

Assume the collision is one where the low canopy wraps the body of the high jumper at or below 100 ft.
IOW, it is not a lines to lines wrap that sends you into a death spiral.

If you were the top person, would you be inclined to clear yourself from the entanglement or hold on to the canopy? Assume the collision is 100 ft or lower.

If you were the bottom person, would you ask the top person to drop you or hold you? Assume the collision is 100 ft or lower.

In either of these cases, would your answer depend upon who caused the collision?
This can range to 'It's all the other guy's fault' to 'both being at fault' to 'your fault'.

At some point, the higher jumper could hold the life of the lower jumper in his hands.
Would you let him go or try a 'tandem' landing, knowing that you'd probably get hurt too?
Would your answer depend upon who the other jumper was and/or whose fault it was?
Would your answer depend upon whether you were wrapped from behind or in front?

Here are some sample canopy collisions:

- one at Perris this weekend
- one in FL a couple of weeks ago
- Roger Nelson's collision
- One at Perris a few years ago that killed the lower jumper. The lower jumper dropped off the wrapee and the canopy did not have time to reinflate.
I am sure there are more examples, but you get the idea.

I do not have my complete answer. My first reaction would be to clear the entanglement. But if I knew I was at 50 ft say, I might hold the lower jumper and say 'stay with me'. If I was the lower jumper, I'd ask the higher jumper to hold me.

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Praetorian 1]

how do you "hold" the lower jumper and keep flying your main? ...
given the choice as the high jumper I would lock my legs together hoping to hold him till he impacted, and then get my legs set for a PLF if I could get them clear of his main. the instant the lower jumper hits your main should no longer be holding him and will dramatically unload, that whatever PLF you can manage and a flair "should" mitigate your impact.
Reguardless of fault these are my cources of action, assuming I realise what has happened quick enough to react.

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[Genn 0]

At that altitude, I would definitely hold the jumper or want to be held.

One canopy is better than no canopy.

[GravityGirl 0]

>>the instant the lower jumper hits your main should no longer be holding him and will dramatically unload, that whatever PLF you can manage and a flair "should" mitigate your impact.
<<

The minute the lower jumper hits, he/she stops moving as your canopy continues forward.... giving you a nice face plant style landing.

It's hard to say what I would do until I'm there. I hope I never will be. I would like to think that I would be noble enough to hold onto the low wo/man. But in that moment of crisis, I might just think about not orphaning my daughter. On a Velocity 84 with so much forward speed, I'm not sure I could survive a landing with an extra body suspended from me.

Good question. I really don't know the answer. I alway visualize being the hero. Would I have the balls to actually do it? Hmmmm.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peace and Blue Skies!
Bonnie ==>Gravity Gear!

[Praetorian 1]

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The minute the lower jumper hits, he/she stops moving as your canopy continues forward.... giving you a nice face plant style landing.

I'm not gonna argue cuz I've never seen this type of landing, but from what has been written about square pilots landing with suspended cargo beneth them, when it hits the sudden unload leaves them a decent landing, and they are still connected, with a suspended jumper you may or may not stay conneted. did I read those articles wrong?

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[wmw999 2,174]

However, you have an anchor holding your feet no more than about 20' away from the other jumper. So if your canopy flies more than 20' forward (which is almost certain), it's going to end up flying straight at the ground. Which is not a good thing.

I'm not sure what I'd do. Probably shit my pants, probably try to figure out how to land both. I fly a 7-cell, so it sinks marginally better. My biggest thing would probably be to try to figure out how to guarantee that I'd fly clear of the other jumper's stuff as soon as he or she hits the ground.

At least it gives me something to focus on.

If there is enough pressurized in the other jumper's main to consider landing, I might try to help that along (i.e. hold open main cells) or something.

But mainly I'm going to keep my head on a swivel, and continue to feel free to land out, which hopefully will reduce my chances of participating in this.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[bch7773 0]

hold them if possible, then flare as they touch down, and PLF as best as I could.

MB 3528, RB 1182

[ntacfreefly 0]

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a Velocity 84 with so much forward speed, I'm not sure I could survive a landing with an extra body suspended from me.

If you get hit, or hit someone at 100 ft with our canopies I doubt you'd have time to even finish saying "Oh Shit".

IMO what most people are forgetting here is to take into account 'wtf just happened' time. At 100 ft if you actually manage to figure out what is happening before you hit the ground you're doing well.

Blues,
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[billvon 2,473]

>If you were the top person, would you be inclined to clear
>yourself from the entanglement or hold on to the canopy?

Personally, I would have time only to fly the canopy and perhaps kick. I wouldn't try to hold on. At 100 feet I am maybe 2 seconds from flaring; that's what I would be concentrating on (that, or leveling the wing and flaring, or going to deep brakes and getting ready for the best PLF of my life.)

[kelpdiver 2]

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IMO what most people are forgetting here is to take into account 'wtf just happened' time. At 100 ft if you actually manage to figure out what is happening before you hit the ground you're doing well.

Without thinking about it ahead of time, that's pretty much what will happen. Likely why Jan raised it here. Even then, might take all of that remaining 5-6 seconds to think about it.

[Mush 0]

I'm a Roofer by Trade & working @ 20 + ft everyday.

I've often looked down & thought about PLF'ing if I fell off a roof, but I think as I hit the floor the last thing going through my head would be my boots (mabey not that dramatic), & with forward speed as well.

Through my own sense of preservation & if I was the high one I would be looking to release the lower one as close to the ground as possible before serious injury was bestowed on me.

IF I was the lower man I would beg to be held

[ntacfreefly 0]

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Without thinking about it ahead of time, that's pretty much what will happen. Likely why Jan raised it here. Even then, might take all of that remaining 5-6 seconds to think about it.

You wont even have 5 seconds under most sub 100 canopies which was the scenario I responded to. Really, there's nothing you can do to plan for it other than do everything you can to not be in that situation.

Should you find yourself in that situation the best thing anyone can do is keep flying all the way to the ground dealing what whatever you can.

Remember just cause people think they know what they'd do doesn't mean the other person involved in the incident will do what you expect them to or that they themselves will behave as expected.

Edit: Even thinking about it now won't take away the WTF just happened time I'm talking about. It all happens so fast, it's a major surprise and at best (using your 5 second example) you have 3 remaining. That leaves time for only 1 thing. Fly yourself (and them) as much as you can - if at all.

Blues.

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[kelpdiver 2]

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Edit: Even thinking about it now won't take away the WTF just happened time I'm talking about. It all happens so fast, it's a major surprise and at best (using your 5 second example) you have 3 remaining. That leaves time for only 1 thing. Fly yourself (and them) as much as you can - if at all.

likely, but the reason we train for emergencies ahead of time is the hope that instead of panicking, we'll use that muscle memory and do the right thing. If you don't think even about it, no chance of solving the problem if it happens.

[ntacfreefly 0]

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If you don't think even about it, no chance of solving the problem if it happens.

Oh I agree - but if people are going to think about it, they have to do so realistically.

I doubt anyone would have any time to effectively communicate with the other person at this altitude. Additionally because no one knows how it could go it leaves 1 option (for me). Fly all the way to the ground, no matter what.

Blues.
Ian

To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu

It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer

[MakeItHappen 15]

More thoughts on this....

The WTF factor may not exist. As in the collision last weekend, one jumper knew about the collision before it happened. So it is possible that you know what's happening.

I think most people (as the top person) will do that self-preservation move of trying to clear the wrap.

'holding on' was meant to include holding on with your legs. I did not mean to imply let go of toggles and grab with your hands.

Given the posts by people with pocket rockets, the amount of time and possible actions does depend upon the top person's canopy.

I guess the question is would you try kicking off the low canopy as you dropped that last 100 feet?

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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker

[Speed2000 0]

Jan,
A very sobering question.

I admit it has been a couple years since my last CRW jump, but the rule "NEVER drop someone unless you are sure it is safe to do so" is etched in pretty deep.

Depending on canopy wingloading, local conditions, specifics of the incident and myriad other variables, landing two people under one main may result in a double fatality and/or serious injury to one or both participants. However, it has been done.

Dropping someone from that altitude is very likely to kill them.

From a practical perspective, unless the top person has planned and drilled for a similar situation, the response is likely to be one of instinct and the event probably over before a choice can be made. Even if the jumper in question has drilled to respond in a given way, the opportunity present itself in any given specific case.

From a speculative perspective, though, I think it boils down to a choice. A direct question (which certainly doesn't capture every eventuality but gets at the meat of it) would be, "Would you prefer a year in traction for yourself or to attend the funeral of a friend?"

Johnny

[itllclear 1]

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A direct question (which certainly doesn't capture every eventuality but gets at the meat of it) would be, "Would you prefer a year in traction for yourself or to attend the funeral of a friend?"

Or possibly, would you rather be alive to be on your friend's ash dive, or getting your ashes scattered in freefall along with your friend's ashes?

There are so many variables, including wing loading, ground conditions, winds, etc. to guaranty the results either way.

BSBD

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[selbbub78 0]

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One canopy is better than no canopy.

most definitely agree with that!

CReW Skies,

"Women fake orgasms - men fake whole relationships" – Sharon Stone
"The world is my dropzone" (wise crewdog quote)
"The light dims, until full darkness pierces into the world."-KDM

[Speed2000 0]

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Or possibly, would you rather be alive to be on your friend's ash dive, or getting your ashes scattered in freefall along with your friend's ashes?

Harry,
Yup, could very well pan out that way.

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There are so many variables, including wing loading, ground conditions, winds, etc. to guaranty the results either way.

Also dead on (no pun intended).

I still gotta go with Genn's answer, though. Top or bottom person, one canopy for both is better than no canopy for one.

Johnny

[AFFI 0]

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Or possibly, would you rather be alive to be on your friend's ash dive, or getting your ashes scattered in freefall along with your friend's ashes?

Whatever happened to:

No friends below 2000 feet?

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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I'll pose my questions first and then list some sample collisions.

Assume the collision is one where the low canopy wraps the body of the high jumper at or below 100 ft.
IOW, it is not a lines to lines wrap that sends you into a death spiral.

If you were the top person, would you be inclined to clear yourself from the entanglement or hold on to the canopy? Assume the collision is 100 ft or lower.

If you were the bottom person, would you ask the top person to drop you or hold you? Assume the collision is 100 ft or lower.

Jan,
Pretty much this exact scenario happended to me when I had around a couple of hundred jumps. I was the top person in your example. I got "wrapped" way-short final. The other jumper, the bottom person, was probably around 10 to 15 feet, I'd say no more, maybe less, off of the gound when his canopy wrapped me at about mid-back to shoulder level, up high enough on me that some of his canopy obscured my view, but not so high that it was into my risers or lines. Looking back on it, I'd like to think I had the presence of mind to realize that my canopy was still flying and that I ought not to do anything drastic... but things were happening really quick... I basically went to half breaks, feet & knees together, made a stab at a flare when I guessed it and did my impression of a PLF... wound up pretty much sliding it it. The bottom person kinda did the same, flared his canopy, but thumped in kinda hard, but in the end was okay and I flew out of his canopy as he landed and I did an instant later as described. It all happened so fast and was so close to the ground, that in it self may have been a bit of a good thing; i.e. not a lot of height to "drop", anyway, it happened so fast that it took a few seconds aferwards to really realize what just happened, at least for me. In those days, I was under a PD190 loaded just under 1:1.

What would I do different now if in that happened? Well, if it all happened again as low as I described and I was again the top person, I doubt I'd do much different. If I was still the top person and it was up higher, say at or just below 100ft, I don't think I'd be enclined to start trying to grap the bottom person's canopy... I don't do CRW and I don'think trying to learn what to do as the person in a 2-Stack when at 100ft or less is the time to do it... kinda like trying to do rigging in freefall or under canopy. Anyway, I think going straight ahead would be advisable, maybe touch a bit of break if your the top person to try to get up out of the bottom person's canopy if you thought you had the altitude to spare?

If I was the bottom person in this scenario... I'm not so sure I would know what to do. Again, I don't do CRW so I don't think I'd be enclined to ask the top person to hold me... ... I'll be interested to hear what might be good things to do if one found oneself on the bottom part of this scenario. I'd certainly get ready to do the best PLF I could pull of and I'd probably still "flare" with hopes I'd get some flare out of my canopy even if I were on the bottom.

What was my take-away from what happened to me? Well, again looking back on it. I can remember while on approach, thinking, it looks like that guy is going to cut me off, but I'm the lower canopy, so I've got right of way. Well, he hooked it around and wound up lower then me and wrapping me as I've described. Well, my first take-away was to be more attentive of what's going on around me in the landing pattern and second, that lower canopy has right of way thing is all well and good, but you've got to look out for yourself first... ergo my tendancy to this day to just land out when the pattern or landing area is crowded or what not; i.e. I'm just fine with walking a little further to help others out by not adding myself to a crowded landing area and help myself out by not being there for someone else to hit.



Oh, as far as fault... well in my story, I ate some shit from the then more experienced jumpers during the walk back to the hangar about watching where I was going more on landing... and there was probably some room for that input. Again, I was okay, the guy who wrapped me was okay, but more bruised and scraped up, but okay... so it kinda worked out to ba a no-blood no-foul situation. Which, to be honest with y'all I'm not big om pointing fingers, finding fault and assigning blame when it comes to the transient transgressions around the DZ as so long as folks are smart enough to realize it takes two to tango, willing to learn from stuff and not be so pig headed that they think they're always right and things are always someone else's fault.

[packerboy 3]

Untill I got into skydiving I had no friends above 2000 ft. Even now they are all under 2000 ft most of the time still. Even if they are 200ft under canopy or 700 ft still in freefall. Whatever my primal instinct survival skills will allow (who really knows untill it happens) I will do for my friends.

Abouth the canopy collision, under 500 ft or so I hope that I would try to hang on and deal with my own high speed PLF when I came to that bridge. I would rather be lying next to my friend in the hospital than standind over his/her casket wishing I had done more.

My friend is my friend no matter what altitude they are at and in what state they are in.

--------------------------------------------------
In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock. ~ Thomas Jefferson

[chachi 0]

im inclined to think i would pray and pop a reserve.

[billvon 2,473]

>im inclined to think i would pray and pop a reserve.

I think you may be overestimating the amount of time you have if you collide with someone at 100 feet. By the time you realize what's going on, you'll have to get ready to flare or PLF.

[livendive 8]

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From a practical perspective, unless the top person has planned and drilled for a similar situation, the response is likely to be one of instinct and the event probably over before a choice can be made. Even if the jumper in question has drilled to respond in a given way, the opportunity present itself in any given specific case.

I agree with this. I've learned that my body does certain things when it finds itself or others in *immediate* mortal danger, and what exactly those things are doesn't really seem to be up to me. I'd say a wrap at a hundred feet would be such an instance and I can't specifically say whether I'd hang on or try to clear myself. I can see either option as feasible (if less than desirable), and I hope I never find out.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)