Observers... next to the door / seatbelt?

[fcajump 153]

READ CAREFULLY...

All but the first and last answers ASSUME the observer wears a parachute (PEP or Sport rig).

I have seen it HOTLY debated as to whether or not observers should be next to the door (also varies with aircraft) and whether or not they should keep their belt on with the door open.

The later argument seemt to focus on two schools of thought:

1. just like the pilot, our observers wear an emergency 'chute and just like the pilot they should be strapped in to avoid falling out.

2. just like the pilot, our observers wear an emergency 'chute, BUT with the chance of an inadvertant deployment we don't want them strapped in while the door is open.

What does your DZ/experience tell you?

Jim

Always remember that some clouds are harder than others...

[piisfish 135]

ours take copilot seat in the Porter, with seatbelt AND parachute.

It usually gives them a security feeling

scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM

[beowulf 1]

I think this depends on the plane. On an Otter the pilot generally doesn't wear a parachute of any kind. The observers that I have seen in an Otter were not required to wear a parachute, but were required to have their seatbelt on at all times. Same for a Caravan. Now on a Porter I have never seen an observer with out a parachute and not buckled in. It makes sense on a Porter because of their proximity to the door.

[Buried 0]

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I think this depends on the plane. On an Otter the pilot generally doesn't wear a parachute of any kind. The observers that I have seen in an Otter were not required to wear a parachute, but were required to have their seatbelt on at all times. Same for a Caravan. Now on a Porter I have never seen an observer with out a parachute and not buckled in. It makes sense on a Porter because of their proximity to the door.

what he said and you can add a parachute on a cessna in the copilot seat

and adding - not next to the door, but they can sit copilot

Where is my fizzy-lifting drink?

[bill4tide 0]

We seat them next the door if they wish in the King Air. They have a chute and are buckled in the entire time. They also have the pilot chute and hackey pushed in to the BOC to prevent a premature deployment. They would only pull reserve.

[tbrown 26]

I think sitting as close to the door as possible is a part of the experience, so they can see people fall away from the plane. It's an unforgettable sight that still gets me every time and it just blows their minds.

Unfortunately there have been just enough nimrods who have actually tried to jump, with the result that most places require a seat in the cockpit, or else have discontimued the practice altogether - which is a real shame.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Praetorian 1]

My bro sat Observer on my first jump (tandem with some buddies, he had a recently broken ankle and the Dr. would not clear him to jump) Kapowisn Washington (not the new DZ they moved to) bench seat on the otter Facing the DOOR, wearing a belt. he had a pilots reserve on, got a good safety briefing, the watched us all exit and enjoyed the ride down in the plane

Good Judgment comes from experience...a lot of experience comes from bad
judgment.

[mjosparky 3]

Sec. 91.107

(3) Except as provided in this paragraph, each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft (except a free balloon that incorporates a basket or gondola or an airship type certificated before November 2, 1987 must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.

(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;

Just a thought, doing it does not make it legal or safe.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[feuergnom 22]

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Unfortunately there have been just enough nimrods who have actually tried to jump

when i first heard such a story i wouldn't believe it, but since three people from that one load where the following thing happend told it to me, i will share it:

so there is this guy wanting to go on a observer ride. guys at the dz give him a thourough briefing about the do's & dont's and strap him into a student rig, get him on the plane & fix him with a seat belt. ride to alti - uneventfull. on jumprun everybody leaves the plane - including the observer as the last one groundcrw is the first to notice cause theres someone hanging on his reserve in 12 grand

so what happend was: as everybody was in the ususal hurry to exit the guy remebered what he was told during his briefing: "when everybody leaves the plane in a rush there is an emergency and you have to leave the plane and go straight for your reserve" what is what he did. since he didn't know what to do afterwards he went for miles before he landed his reserve unscathed.

scared the bejeesus out of everyone. since then passengers are seated in the front of the plane next to the pilot and are not fitted with student rigs anymore

The universal aptitude for ineptitude makes any human accomplishment an incredible miracle

dudeist skydiver # 666

[tombuch 0]

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so what happend was: as everybody was in the ususal hurry to exit the guy remebered what he was told during his briefing: "when everybody leaves the plane in a rush there is an emergency and you have to leave the plane and go straight for your reserve" what is what he did. since he didn't know what to do afterwards he went for miles before he landed his reserve unscathed.

It's a good idea to assign a jumper to escort the observer and actually ride with him in the airplane, but not jump. That way there is always an experienced and responsible person supervising the non-jumper. There have been other cases of observers getting off the airplane after the flight and walking into the prop, so supervision is needed at all times. This level of supervision requires that an extra person be included on the flight just to supervise the observer. That's easy to do in an Otter, but it's tougher to give up the extra slot in a small Cessna.
.

Tom Buchanan
Instructor Emeritus
Comm Pilot MSEL,G
Author: JUMP! Skydiving Made Fun and Easy

[darkwing 4]

One of my former DZs had an observer fall out of a C-182 on descent when the pilot was goofing around, floated her up against the door handle, door opened, and out she went. She lived, with about 1 second canopy ride after a few thousand feet of freefall. I'm in favor of seatbelts, and pilots who don't screw around.

-- Jeff
My Skydiving History

[chuckbrown 0]

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Sec. 91.107


(ii) Use the floor of the aircraft as a seat, provided that the person is on board for the purpose of engaging in sport parachuting;

I can't find any litigation involving the intepretation of this language, but considering the wording of other portions of the FARs, one could make a very strong argument that this language does not exclusively apply to persons actually making an intentional skydive. This language is broad enough to apply to anyone engaged in any activity associated with sport parachute operations, e.g., pilot familiarization flights, ferry flights, observer rides, etc.

Had the FAA intended the floor to be used only by persons intending to make a sport parachute jump (with a dual parachute harness and container system, blah, blah, blah), they could have very easily drafted this FAR to say just that.

[PhreeZone 15]

A ferry flight is not a skydving operation. Skydiving may not take place from an aircraft if it is more then like 25 miles from its departure airport. As soon as it goes over 25 miles its now not a skydiving flight and its a normal part 91 flight and that requires everyone in seats and off the floor.

Pilot firmalization flights are typically done with both pilots sitting in seats.

Neither of these arguements will hold up under the FAA.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[mjosparky 3]

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they could have very easily drafted this FAR to say just that.

They easily could have drafted most FAR's to say just what they want it to say. But they seem to pride themselves in dealing in ambiguity at its highest level.

If you have any doubt how the FAA will view Part 91.107, run it by your local FISDO.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[beowulf 1]

there is probably a FAR requiring that FARs be as ambiguious as possible.

[chuckbrown 0]

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A ferry flight is not a skydving operation. Skydiving may not take place from an aircraft if it is more then like 25 miles from its departure airport. As soon as it goes over 25 miles its now not a skydiving flight and its a normal part 91 flight and that requires everyone in seats and off the floor.

Pilot firmalization flights are typically done with both pilots sitting in seats.

Neither of these arguements will hold up under the FAA.

Reasonable people will differ. I've received permission from the FAA to do the exact things you've said are not allowed.

[mjosparky 3]

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I've received permission from the FAA to do the exact things you've said are not allowed.

I would hope you have it in writing just in case.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[Johnsisland 0]

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I think this depends on the plane. On an Otter the pilot generally doesn't wear a parachute of any kind. The observers that I have seen in an Otter were not required to wear a parachute, but were required to have their seatbelt on at all times.

Otter pilots do not wear a seat belt because they are ahead of the bulkhead. From what I have been told, if you are sitting behind the bulkhead, FAA says you need to wear a chute.

I don't know why the FAA says you don't need to wear a chute if you are ahead of the bulkhead. I have heard a pilot say it would difficult to jump in an emergency--it's a cramped cockpit so it would be hard to move aft past the bulkhead, and you don't want to leave via the pilot's door.

I'm not a pilot, and I am a low time jumper, but if I was a pilot, I would tend to wear at least a bailout rig.

I am curious why the bailout rigs have round chutes. I really wouldn't want to jump one of those, much less in a emergency. Wouldn't an unconcious person have a better chance of surviving if they were wearing a big student rig?

Just my thoughts,

Jeff

Arch? I can arch just fine with my back to the ground.

• Quote

[mjosparky 3]

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Otter pilots do not wear a seat belt because they are ahead of the bulkhead. From what I have been told, if you are sitting behind the bulkhead, FAA says you need to wear a chute.

You were told wrong.

Sec. 91.105

Flight crewmembers at stations.

(a) During takeoff and landing, and while en route, each required flight crewmember shall—

(1) Be at the crewmember station unless the absence is necessary to perform duties in connection with the operation of the aircraft or in connection with physiological needs; and

(2) keep the safety belt fastened while at the crewmember station.

---

This is the only reference to the use of parachute in an aircraft.

Part 91.307

(c) Unless each occupant of the aircraft is wearing an approved parachute, no pilot of a civil aircraft carrying any person (other than a crewmember) may execute any intentional maneuver that exceeds—

(1) A bank of 60 degrees relative to the horizon; or

(2) A nose-up or nose-down attitude of 30 degrees relative to the horizon.

(d) Paragraph (c) of this section does not apply to—

(1) Flight tests for pilot certification or rating; or

(2) Spins and other flight maneuvers required by the regulations

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals