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olofscience

Solar is now "the cheapest electricity in history", confirms the IEA

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15 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Why was ethanol taxed?

To pay for the civil war. But the why isn't the important part here. You are arguing that kerosene won out on pure market economics without government influence. Camphine and the taxation on ethanol shows that is simply not the case. Government influence certainly effected the outcome. Whether that was the desired outcome, or a side-effect is not important to refute your "market forces" only argument.

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(edited)
7 hours ago, billvon said:

And storage is catching up quickly.  Apple is now building a 240 megawatt-hour storage facility to power its headquarters.

https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/apple-build-battery-based-solar-energy-storage-facility-california/

Bill - The article seems to be about technical feasibility not economics. It would be interesting to know the cost and if Telsa is cutting them a deal to demonstrate their battery. Certainly Apple can afford it with their high product prices, and CA laws on renewables and electricity cost.

Would also be interesting to know the tech facts and cost on the Apple Park HQ building. It was built with many unique features to control energy use. Economics is still a real issue not just technical feasibility.

Edited by billeisele

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8 hours ago, billvon said:

And storage is catching up quickly.  Apple is now building a 240 megawatt-hour storage facility to power its headquarters.

https://www.themanufacturer.com/articles/apple-build-battery-based-solar-energy-storage-facility-california/

About the energy in 7,200 gallons of gasoline, 29 tons of coal, or 188 tons of TNT.

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2 hours ago, billeisele said:

Bill - The article seems to be about technical feasibility not economics. It would be interesting to know the cost and if Telsa is cutting them a deal to demonstrate their battery. Certainly Apple can afford it with their high product prices, and CA laws on renewables and electricity cost.

The economics argument seems compelling given that the Tesla battery in South Australia has delivered stunning profits to its owner: https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-in-south-australia-delivers-stunning-windfall-profits-77644/

Of course it was a matter of luck as well that a storm blew down a power link, but they've already decided to upgrade the facility and start several more similar projects.

With California's susceptibility to natural disasters Apple might have been thinking of the events that delivered these profits.

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3 hours ago, billeisele said:

Bill - The article seems to be about technical feasibility not economics.

Well, no - these are off the shelf systems.  But you're right, it's not about economics either - just about the plan for the BESS facility.

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1 hour ago, brenthutch said:

Hell I’ll grant you 20 years.  The economics still fail, not to mention the environmental time bomb.

I literally just posted how profitable it was in the post above yours.

Given that batteries are easily recyclable, "environmental time bomb" is just you grasping desperately at straws.

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9 hours ago, olofscience said:

I literally just posted how profitable it was in the post above yours.

Given that batteries are easily recyclable, "environmental time bomb" is just you grasping desperately at straws.

Profitable and easily recyclable?  Nothing to do now but let the market do its thing.  Why do we need subsidies?

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15 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

... Nothing to do now but let the market do its thing.  Why do we need subsidies?

All the people that think you're just trolling miss your good accurate posts.

How private equity squeezes cash from the dying U.S. coal industry

As coal dies, the US has no plan to help the communities left behind

Are We Witnessing the Death of Coal?

President Donald Trump spent more than $1 billion in taxpayer funds, rolled back environmental rules and tried to stop power plant closings to fulfill a vow he made to West Virginia coal miners in the 2016 campaign. They went bankrupt anyway.

Nobody pours good money after bad better than trump. Especially when its not his money.

 

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11 hours ago, olofscience said:

I literally just posted how profitable it was in the post above yours.

Given that batteries are easily recyclable, "environmental time bomb" is just you grasping desperately at straws.

Yep.  I chuckle when I see someone be against recyclable batteries - but also support coal.

Here's an article where a single utility is trying to figure out what to do with 600 ACRES of toxic coal power plant waste in huge ponds.  That's hundreds of millions of tons of radioactive, carcinogenic waste that no one knows what to do with.  So far the management of this waste has resulted in a 3% increase in utility rates.  It is likely that the end solution will be far more expensive.

https://www.al.com/news/2021/03/cap-it-or-remove-it-coal-ash-dispute-in-mobile-attracting-80-speakers-for-public-hearing.html
 

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7 hours ago, brenthutch said:

Profitable and easily recyclable?  Nothing to do now but let the market do its thing.  Why do we need subsidies?

It wasn't. What makes you think it was subsidized?

It's because you're so biased you're against anything electric or renewable, that you say stupid things about them no matter their actual characteristics.

 

Edit to add: The Australian government did fund a small subsidy for the 2020 upgrade of the HPR from 100 to 150 MWh after being impressed by its performance, but the original 100 MWh installation built in 2017 was entirely privately funded.

Edited by olofscience

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7 hours ago, billvon said:

Yep.  I chuckle when I see someone be against recyclable batteries - but also support coal.

Here's an article where a single utility is trying to figure out what to do with 600 ACRES of toxic coal power plant waste in huge ponds.  That's hundreds of millions of tons of radioactive, carcinogenic waste that no one knows what to do with.  So far the management of this waste has resulted in a 3% increase in utility rates.  It is likely that the end solution will be far more expensive.

https://www.al.com/news/2021/03/cap-it-or-remove-it-coal-ash-dispute-in-mobile-attracting-80-speakers-for-public-hearing.html
 

i hope it doesn't end like it did at buffalo creek wv.  i forgot how many were killed when the dam that held the slurry back broke, but it was a lot and in the middle of the night if i recall correctly.

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On 4/18/2021 at 10:18 AM, olofscience said:

The economics argument seems compelling given that the Tesla battery in South Australia has delivered stunning profits to its owner: https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-big-battery-in-south-australia-delivers-stunning-windfall-profits-77644/

Of course it was a matter of luck as well that a storm blew down a power link, but they've already decided to upgrade the facility and start several more similar projects.

With California's susceptibility to natural disasters Apple might have been thinking of the events that delivered these profits.

Thanks for the article, quite interesting. If the battery is big enough it certainly could be a valuable asset to stabilize the grid.

I can say from first hand experience that when uncontrollable events impact the grid the system operators will grab anything they can to help control and stabilize it. Our option of last resort was a rolling blackout. We had it in the plan and did simulations to be prepared. Other parts of the country use it on a regular basis as a standard operating practice. Public broadcasts to reduce usage were surprisingly effective. Then you can squeeze more with voltage reduction. We also had a voluntary interruptible program and a program where companies would run IC generators on request, these programs worked well. 

Losing the grid was always considered "not an option."

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(edited)
40 minutes ago, brenthutch said:

Face palm

It was already profitable before that.

The AU government wanted it upgraded so they gave a grant (not subsidy, chose the wrong word) alongside other private funding.

So there goes your argument that it's not profitable without subsidy. Anything else?

Edit to add: It paid for itself in 2.5 years (built in 2017)

Edited by olofscience

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Hi folks,

The nation’s largest coal miners’ union said Monday it would accept President Joe Biden’s plan to move away from coal and other fossil fuels in exchange for a “true energy transition” that includes thousands of jobs in renewable energy and spending on technology to make coal cleaner.

Miners' union backs shift from coal in exchange for jobs (apnews.com)

Times, they are a-changin.

Jerry Baumchen

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1 hour ago, JerryBaumchen said:

Times, they are a-changin.

Jerry Baumchen

man, you ain't kidding.  brent has a thread that he agrees with obama, a cop got convicted of murder, and now the miners union says it will be ok with getting rid of coal.

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