brenthutch 390 #201 February 2, 2021 Westerly is correct. In the real world, higher gas prices are passed down to the consumer. A farmer can’t decide not to fertilize his crops, a truck driver must put diesel in his truck to move his freight from point A to point B, we all can’t buy used Nissan Leafs for $4000, (if we did market forces would quickly make them $20,000 used Nissan Leafs). The Obama State Department made five different assessments on the environmental impact of the Keystone pipeline and concluded it would not contribute to global warming as the tar sands resource would be exploited regardless. Moving tar sands crude by pipeline costs $10 a barrel, moving the same barrel by rail is $30. Riddle me this, who will benefit from that $20 marginal increase and who will pay for it? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,960 #202 February 2, 2021 13 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: That story has not been written yet. Below a list of top oil exporters to the US in 2020. Most of the bitumen derived oil exported to the gulf coast refineries is for further export. And even if America needs the product shipping it by rail will not increase the price those refineries pay. The increased cost will be paid out of the profits of the producers in Alberta. That is the reality of the market and that is why there is zero political cost for Biden to kill the project. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,370 #203 February 2, 2021 1 hour ago, Westerly said: Our oil is not cheap as dirt. Gas is like $2.50 a gallon. In some middle eastern countries it is less than $0.50 a gallon. That is cheap. People seem to have a short memory. Were you alive a few years ago when gas was $4-5 a gallon? That sucked and it made everything, everywhere worse. People were spending more on gas just to drive to work than they were spending on food every month. UPS, FedEx, USPS and everyone else jacked their shipping prices way up. That in turn lead to higher prices everywhere. Everything was more expensive, everywhere, under all conditions because gas was overpriced. I remember that very well. I was working harder for what was essentially less money because the cost of living was higher. Oh and guess what, gas goes back up to $5 a gallon and here comes $35 jump tickets easy. Dude, in Venezuela the gas attendants don't even ask for the few bolivars it costs because the bolivars are worthless. So you just drive on. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #204 February 2, 2021 1 hour ago, billvon said: If you have lots of money buy the Tesla. If you don't, and just want to get to work for real cheap, buy a $4000 used Leaf. There are four used Leafs under that price near me. Because it's as cheap as dirt. Change that, and the use of oil changes. Where do poor people who live in apartments charge their Nissan Leaves if they have to park on the street? We lack the infrastructure to make it viable for low income people. I'm all in favor in principle, but if you simply raise the price you won't necessarily change the habits of the rich or poor. Rich can afford whatever increase happens, and poor are already stuck in their situations as it is, particularly during the pandemic. It would be great if we had a bunch of charging parking meters in place first so we could incentivize rather than mandate. As for Keystone XL, I've said it before, that oil is getting to the market one way or another. I think it is a mistake to cancel it at this point for the same reason I wasn't in favor of Obama cancelling NASA Ares. You definitely throw away a bunch of money if you stop and start all over. I don't want to hijack into some discussion about NASA, and I know it's not an apples to apples comparison, but it is similar in that they immediately started throwing money at a new design with the SLS. (which I know will also likely be cancelled) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #205 February 2, 2021 25 minutes ago, gowlerk said: Most of the bitumen derived oil exported to the gulf coast refineries is for further export. And even if America needs the product shipping it by rail will not increase the price those refineries pay. The increased cost will be paid out of the profits of the producers in Alberta. That is the reality of the market and that is why there is zero political cost for Biden to kill the project. Biden has already suffered a political cost. I know you might not want him to, but he has, especially with the hard hat union folks. BTW I would be interested to see evidence that the increase in transportation costs is borne solely by producers in Alberta. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #206 February 2, 2021 38 minutes ago, JoeWeber said: Dude, in Venezuela the gas attendants don't even ask for the few bolivars it costs because the bolivars are worthless. So you just drive on. That might have more to do with the socialist policies of Venezuela than it does with the cost of oil. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 943 #207 February 2, 2021 33 minutes ago, gowlerk said: Most of the bitumen derived oil exported to the gulf coast refineries is for further export. And even if America needs the product shipping it by rail will not increase the price those refineries pay. The increased cost will be paid out of the profits of the producers in Alberta. ... Thats not true. Some of the oil is re-exported as other refined products. But its the nature of a heavy and sour oil that leads to the mixing of Alberta oil with lighter, sweeter feedstocks at the Cushing hub and gulf coast refineries 37 minutes ago, gowlerk said: .... that is why there is zero political cost for Biden to kill the project. There will be a political cost in oil country for killing XL. Not because of its smaller impact on US oil markets. But because of a larger narrative that President Biden and the democrats are anti oil. It will be played for all its worth by the GOP. I'm sure Brent will be along anytime to amplify the GOP oil is good echo chamber. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 943 #208 February 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, brenthutch said: BTW I would be interested to see evidence that the increase in transportation costs is borne solely by producers in Alberta. True. Alberta heavy oil called WCS(Western Canadian Select) is sold at a discount based upon a common shipping point. Which i think is Hardisty, Alberta. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,483 #209 February 2, 2021 34 minutes ago, murps2000 said: Where do poor people who live in apartments charge their Nissan Leaves if they have to park on the street? At work. At a public charger. At the store. Via an extension cord out their window. A dozen ways - if they want to. If not? They can buy a gas car and pay for the gas. Freedom! Quote if you simply raise the price you won't necessarily change the habits of the rich or poor. In the US that is almost the ONLY way to significantly change people's habits. Go by any Wal-Mart and see if it's unpopular because all their stuff is made in China - or whether it's popular because their stuff is cheaper than the American-made alternatives. Quote As for Keystone XL, I've said it before, that oil is getting to the market one way or another. Not really. As the price goes up, demand goes down. So more will be left in the ground as people choose alternatives based on economics. (More efficient cars, mass transit, EV's, closer jobs etc) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 943 #210 February 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, brenthutch said: That might have more to do with the socialist policies of Venezuela than it does with the cost of oil. Since your previous "glorious leader" Donald trump loved to use Venezuela as a whipping boy. I'd have thought you would at least know its a populist dictatorship government. i.e. what trump desired for the US. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airdvr 200 #211 February 2, 2021 57 minutes ago, brenthutch said: Westerly is correct. In the real world, higher gas prices are passed down to the consumer. A farmer can’t decide not to fertilize his crops, a truck driver must put diesel in his truck to move his freight from point A to point B, we all can’t buy used Nissan Leafs for $4000, (if we did market forces would quickly make them $20,000 used Nissan Leafs). The Obama State Department made five different assessments on the environmental impact of the Keystone pipeline and concluded it would not contribute to global warming as the tar sands resource would be exploited regardless. Moving tar sands crude by pipeline costs $10 a barrel, moving the same barrel by rail is $30. Riddle me this, who will benefit from that $20 marginal increase and who will pay for it? I believe Warren Buffet bought BNSF a few years back. They haul a lot of oil. I wonder if he contributed to the dems or reps? 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JoeWeber 2,370 #212 February 2, 2021 11 minutes ago, brenthutch said: That might have more to do with the socialist policies of Venezuela than it does with the cost of oil. Unlike the cost of energy everywhere else in the world? Seriously man, you are getting tedious. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #213 February 2, 2021 5 minutes ago, airdvr said: I believe Warren Buffet bought BNSF a few years back. They haul a lot of oil. I wonder if he contributed to the dems or reps? And we have a winner!!! 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,483 #214 February 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, airdvr said: I believe Warren Buffet bought BNSF a few years back. They haul a lot of oil. I wonder if he contributed to the dems or reps? Anyone with even half a brain has been donating to the democrats for the past four years. And from what I know of him, he has at least half a brain. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #215 February 2, 2021 9 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: Since your previous "glorious leader" Donald trump loved to use Venezuela as a whipping boy. I'd have thought you would at least know its a populist dictatorship government. i.e. what trump desired for the US. Please show me evidence that Trump was my “glorious leader”? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #216 February 2, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, billvon said: Anyone with even half a brain has been donating to the democrats for the past four years. And from what I know of him, he has at least half a brain. And now he is getting his return on his investment. Nothing nefarious, just a simple quid pro quo. Unfortunately the rest of America will be picking up the tab. Edited February 2, 2021 by brenthutch Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 943 #217 February 2, 2021 29 minutes ago, airdvr said: I believe Warren Buffet bought BNSF a few years back. They haul a lot of oil. I wonder if he contributed to the dems or reps? Warren Buffett says 'I'm a Democrat,'. Warren Buffett doesn't think the rich in America are paying enough in taxes. “The wealthy are definitely undertaxed relative to the general population,” he told CNBC's Becky Quick during an interview on “Squawk Box” on Monday. ... His solution: Expand the earned income tax credit, which benefits people with low incomes.Feb 26, 2019 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
murps2000 86 #218 February 2, 2021 1 hour ago, billvon said: At work. At a public charger. At the store. Via an extension cord out their window. A dozen ways - if they want to. If not? They can buy a gas car and pay for the gas. Freedom! At work? You mean at the local cafe where they might wait tables (or actually just pack up to go orders right now, with no tip)? At a public charger? What public charger? At the store? Okay. Yes there are a few dozen charging stations at our local Target among the hundreds of parking spots. An extension cord? Have you ever lived in an apartment? I doubt Mc Donald's would let their employees run a bunch of cords out the window either. You need eight more to get to a dozen. I bought a Prius so I'll get by, for a while. Freedom... 1 hour ago, billvon said: In the US that is almost the ONLY way to significantly change people's habits. Go by any Wal-Mart and see if it's unpopular because all their stuff is made in China - or whether it's popular because their stuff is cheaper than the American-made alternatives. It does work but the wealthy don't care when the price increase is insignificant, and the poor are constrained by many other factors than just that price increase. They will be disproportionately screwed if a move to increase charging station availability isn't accomplished first. 1 hour ago, billvon said: Not really. As the price goes up, demand goes down. So more will be left in the ground as people choose alternatives based on economics. (More efficient cars, mass transit, EV's, closer jobs etc) In this case demand may go down in the US, probably from the poor because it will be a significant change in their cash flow. For the wealthy, it will be a drop in the bucket. They may even ride the speculative rise in oil stocks and gain money. Still, that oil will get to the market. If Hillary Clinton were elected in 2016 and Keystone XL never got started, Canada would probably be building a pipeline to Vancouver right now and China would buy the oil. I was against Keystone XL before the 2016 election, for reasons that I still think exist, but unfortunately, at this point I think it would be more prudent to work practically with what we've got. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,960 #219 February 2, 2021 1 hour ago, airdvr said: I believe Warren Buffet bought BNSF a few years back. They haul a lot of oil. I wonder if he contributed to the dems or reps? When he bought it they were also hauling coal in a huge amount. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
20kN 93 #220 February 2, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, billvon said: At work. At a public charger. At the store. Via an extension cord out their window. A dozen ways - if they want to. If not? They can buy a gas car and pay for the gas. Freedom! You seem to live in a world that is different from the real one. Yea you might get free charging for your Tesla at your close-in reserved parking spot at work, but the rest of those slumming it dont have charging stations at work and they cant charge them in an apartment. Most apartments actually even specifically say in the rental agreement that charging cars is not authorized. Public chargers are not for random people to just mooch off of. They are for paying customers to charge their vehicles while shopping at the store. You get your car seen on the same charger more often than it should and you can bet your ass security is going to tow that shit away. You also havent addressed the more important point I have mentioned twice now. The cost of driving the car is not even the most important concern here. Oil prices affect the price of all goods and services sold in the United States. There is not one product sold in any store anywhere on American land that is immune to the affects of oil pricing, so when the price of oil goes up the price of every product that exists in this country goes up. Edited February 2, 2021 by 20kN Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #221 February 2, 2021 4 hours ago, 20kN said: You seem to live in a world that is different from the real one. Yea you might get free charging for your Tesla at your close-in reserved parking spot at work, but the rest of those slumming it dont have charging stations at work and they cant charge them in an apartment. Most apartments actually even specifically say in the rental agreement that charging cars is not authorized. Public chargers are not for random people to just mooch off of. They are for paying customers to charge their vehicles while shopping at the store. You get your car seen on the same charger more often than it should and you can bet your ass security is going to tow that shit away. You also havent addressed the more important point I have mentioned twice now. The cost of driving the car is not even the most important concern here. Oil prices affect the price of all goods and services sold in the United States. There is not one product sold in any store anywhere on American land that is immune to the affects of oil pricing, so when the price of oil goes up the price of every product that exists in this country goes up. I realize that Chicago is way ahead of the times, but my former workplace (I am retired) has a bunch of charging stations in its parking lots, and charging stations are now popping up at local shopping malls.and strip malls, even on the "south side". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #222 February 2, 2021 3 hours ago, kallend said: I realize that Chicago is way ahead of the times, but my former workplace (I am retired) has a bunch of charging stations in its parking lots, and charging stations are now popping up at local shopping malls.and strip malls, even on the "south side". You must still be having those reading comprehension difficulties. What part of: “You also havent addressed the more important point I have mentioned twice now. The cost of driving the car is not even the most important concern here. Oil prices affect the price of all goods and services sold in the United States. There is not one product sold in any store anywhere on American land that is immune to the affects of oil pricing, so when the price of oil goes up the price of every product that exists in this country goes up.” don’t you understand? Murps2000 and others pointed out, higher prices disproportionately impact lower income folks. I can offset higher prices by not going out to eat as often (which also hurts waitstaff, cooks, bartenders etc.) however people on a tight budget have to make more painful choices. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 1,960 #223 February 2, 2021 3 hours ago, kallend said: I realize that Chicago is way ahead of the times, but my former workplace (I am retired) has a bunch of charging stations in its parking lots, and charging stations are now popping up at local shopping malls.and strip malls, even on the "south side". That doesn’t address the main point about charging. Most people will need to charge overnight at home. That piece of infrastructure is not in place for most apartment dwellers. Of course many of them are stuck using public transit anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Phil1111 943 #224 February 2, 2021 17 minutes ago, brenthutch said: You must still be having those reading comprehension difficulties. What part of: “You also havent addressed the more important point I have mentioned twice now. The cost of driving the car is not even the most important concern here. Oil prices affect the price of all goods and services sold in the United States. There is not one product sold in any store anywhere on American land that is immune to the affects of oil pricing, so when the price of oil goes up the price of every product that exists in this country goes up.” don’t you understand? Murps2000 and others pointed out, higher prices disproportionately impact lower income folks. I can offset higher prices by not going out to eat as often (which also hurts waitstaff, cooks, bartenders etc.) however people on a tight budget have to make more painful choices. Change.... i know its frightening to you, Murps2000 and others. Exxon is a good example of whats coming. Since 2015 they have spent $30 billion more than what their cash flow was. Cash flow not profits.Exxon Posts First Annual Loss in 40 Years on Huge Writedown Three consecutive quarterly losses ended up in a $19.3 billion writedown. Its time to face your fears about whats coming and stop the feigned compassion for the poor. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brenthutch 390 #225 February 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Phil1111 said: Change.... i know its frightening to you, Murps2000 and others. Exxon is a good example of whats coming. Since 2015 they have spent $30 billion more than what their cash flow was. Cash flow not profits.Exxon Posts First Annual Loss in 40 Years on Huge Writedown Three consecutive quarterly losses ended up in a $19.3 billion writedown. Its time to face your fears about whats coming and stop the feigned compassion for the poor. First loss in forty years? That seems to be an anomaly not a trend. However, if you are correct, we just need to let the market forces play out. No need for expensive government subsidies for wind, solar and EVs. Don’t you agree? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites