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CoolBeans

Container that fits 3 canopy sizes: Pilot ZPX 188, Sabre2 170 and Sabre2 150

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Hi, I'm about to pull the trigger on new/used rig. Is it a bad idea to try to get one that will fit Pilot ZPX 188, Sabre2 170 and Sabre2 150? Not at the same time if somebody asked...

I'm being told that Pilot ZPX 188 packs like normal canopy at around 170 size so that could work. There are few other canopies that may pack smaller, like Storm 190 or Pulse 190.

What I have in mind is for example:

  • Vector 348 / 349
  • Javelin J3K (or maybe J2K?)
  • Mirage M4M / M4L
  • Icon i5

Would appreciate advise. 

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(edited)

An I5 will not fit a Sabre 2 150. It will be too lose. You're better off getting an I4. The I4 can fit a ZPX 188, although it may be a bit tight if you live in a low humidity climate. Then when you get down to the Sabre 2 150 it will fit well. Just know you'll need an ULPV reserve because a standard reserve will max out at a 150 in the I4. You can get a Smart LPV or Optimum 175 that will fit fine in the I4 though.

Edited by 20kN

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17 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

As a newbie asking for container-size advice, you ought to confess your weight, so we can know the WL you’re considering.

Yes, because then the magic interwebs can jump all over you in disapproval for daring to make your own decisions.

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Tbh, I would be more concerned about reserve size (as 20kn mentioned) than whether I can downsize more than once with it.

Ever jump a 150 anything? A Pilot 188 might be the perfect main right now. Are you ready to land something 38 sq ft smaller on your first jump on that rig because you had to cutaway? Into a tight landing area? At sunset? In less than ideal wind conditions? 

Dress for the crash, not the cruise. Buy something that holds a reserve you can safely land right now.  Cuz malfunctions are assholes; they likely aren't going to patiently wait for you to get to that point. 

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Most of the people with ~190 sqft mains jump 176 sqft reserve. I've been advised by many that this is fine. And that's what I'm aiming at. 

Look, I'm asking because I don't know. If this is bad idea for whatever reason, just tell me. Instead of going cheap and temporary I'm thinking of spending a bit more money on proper container now but then I would want to keep it a bit longer if possible. That's all it is. 

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17 minutes ago, CoolBeans said:

Most of the people with ~190 sqft mains jump 176 sqft reserve. I've been advised by many that this is fine. And that's what I'm aiming at. 

Look, I'm asking because I don't know. If this is bad idea for whatever reason, just tell me. Instead of going cheap and temporary I'm thinking of spending a bit more money on proper container now but then I would want to keep it a bit longer if possible. That's all it is. 

Not trying to be snarky. Just wanted to give you a bit more information and a different POV before you pull the trigger.  While many jumpers choose a smaller reserve that doesn't mean it's the right choice for you.  Lots of jumpers have reserves the same size or even a bit bigger than their main.  Based on my weight I could have a 135 or smaller reserve and be "just fine". I carry a 143 because I have never heard anyone say they wish they had less square footage over their head on a reserve ride... especially into a fucked up landing area.

As far as container sizing, someone mentioned above that a 188 will fit tight in low humidity areas (think Eloy, Perris, Elsinore) and nicer in higher humidity (Florida,etc).  Packing a tight main container isn't fun when you are still learning to pack. Consider where you live and jump before making that decision.

How fast do you think you will downsize to a 150 from a 188?  To me it makes more sense financially to buy what fits the canopies you will be jumping for the next couple hundred jumps, preferably used to save some coin. Downsize the main once. Fly the shit out of that, then sell it all and get what works for you at that point. A rig sized for 190's is going to sell pretty quickly when you are done with it. By the time you are ready for a 150, you will want a new container anyway.

Imho, ymmv, etc.

 

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(edited)
20 minutes ago, skybytch said:

By the time you are ready for a 150, you will want a new container anyway.

This is so very true. Skydiving is an expensive habit. There are ways to save on gear, and planning ahead is acceptable. But the steps from 190 to 150 only comes after a lot of jumps. If you really have the time and the money to accomplish this progression quickly then you probably also have the resources to get a more appropriate container when the time comes.  Asking for one container to do this all is just barely possible, but not really the best plan.

Edited by gowlerk

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51 minutes ago, CoolBeans said:

Most of the people with ~190 sqft mains jump 176 sqft reserve. I've been advised by many that this is fine. And that's what I'm aiming at. 

Look, I'm asking because I don't know. If this is bad idea for whatever reason, just tell me. Instead of going cheap and temporary I'm thinking of spending a bit more money on proper container now but then I would want to keep it a bit longer if possible. That's all it is.

 

For this reason you should rule out the J2K, which is too small for the reserve in the size range you want (even a low-bulk reserve). Same with the M4 series of Mirages.

a V348 should work sweet if you get an Optimum 176 reserve. Javelin J3K and Icon I4 will both work if you get a low-bulk reserve. Before you make your final choice, run the canopy sizes and container size by your rigger - she may have an opinion on which reserve she'd rather pack - not all low bulk reserves pack equally small...

Good luck shopping!
 

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6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Yes, because then the magic interwebs can jump all over you in disapproval for daring to make your own decisions.

When asking for advice on the internet, a person should expect to provide the same relevant information as if it was being asked in person. 

 

 

 

 

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Well, you're asking because you don't know and want to find out. Nothing wrong with that. 
It has been asked before and answered more than once. 

The reality is that it's not the best idea.

Some of this may come across as a little harsh. I'm not trying to pile on you, but the consequences for making a bad decision on this are significant. 

 

What I was taught is to figure out what size reserve you need. Then the main. Then pick a rig that will hold those choices. 

 

Ok, what size canopy are you usually jumping right now?

What's the smallest canopy you've ever jumped?

 

Are you going to choose a reserve based on what size you currently fly/have flown?
Or by what 'everyone' is putting in the mythical 'container that holds the size canopy you want'? Or 'holds the one that you will be jumping in the future'?

Remember that if you are under your reserve, you are already in a bad situation. You will likely be at least somewhat stressed out, having just dealt with a mal. You will quite possibly be low, in a bad spot, trying to pick out a landing area that will be 'less than ideal'. You may have a minute (or less) to figure out how that particular canopy flies and lands (this is why demoing a reserve as a main is a really good idea). 

Personally, I jump a 170 main, loaded fairly low. And a 176 reserve.

And, while in theory, any given container can hold 3 sizes (the one it's designed for, one bigger, one smaller), it's not really all that good of an idea.
Trying to overstuff a container is not good for the rig. Over stuffing it stretches the seams, pulls on the grommets and bends the stiffeners. Do it for too long and you will end up needing expensive repairs.
A low bulk main can alleviate some of this, but it's not going to change the size of the reserve the rig can hold. And yes, a low bulk reserve can help that too.

 

Too small and the canopy is not held very well. It can shift around, or the pin may be too loose. Some folks get away with a too small main by having a 'pillow' installed to make the main pack tray a bit smaller. Not the best idea, but it can be made to work. Never did it myself.

How fast are you planning on down sizing (both in time and jump numbers)?
How many jumps are you planning on doing this year (next year, ect)?

Why do you want to downsize?
Are you aware of BillVon's downsizing checklist (in the Safety articles)?
Are you aware of Brian Germain's downsizing chart and accompanying article (sticky in Canopy Control forum)?

The simple reality is that I don't need to know the answers to any of these questions. 
It's not going to be me under the canopy you choose. 

 

But these are all questions you should have a good answer to before you make any purchases.

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I am selling a brand new vector3, pilot188 zpx, smart 175, m2 aad. All components are new and have 0 jumps on them. I am a Master rigger and just assembled and pack the rig last week. You  can see my ad for the rig under "complete systems" in the for sale ads.

I just tore the rotator cuff in my shoulder so won't be jumping any time soon.

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(edited)

Hey, I went through this exact train of thought late last year and ended up getting the Mirage M5-1/2, you can check the size chart here (https://miragesys.com/support/container-sizing-guide/#1502573030592-a0875921-9f51). I bought it after talking to Mirage directly and being told that it can fit a LPV 190 Main (I went with the Pulse 190), a ZP 170 and a ZP 150 (I plan on going Pilot 170, not sure if I'll even go to a 150, but the option is there at least). Importantly, I wanted at least a 175 Reserve, and according to them an LPV 175 is optimal (I went with the Smart LPV 175). The M5-1/2 is essentially inbetween the M5 and M4 in terms of size, insofar as the main pack tray is slightly smaller (so it best accomodates a ZP 170, unlike the M5) but, the reserve pack tray is identical to the M5 (so it best accomodates a LPV 175, unlike the LPV 150 which is recommended for the M4).

In addition, Mirage has an option for a 'Secondary Closing Loop', which allows you to change the location of the closing loop to a second location on the bottom of the main pack tray; according to them it means you can pack in a smaller main without compromising on closing loop length/tension (https://miragesys.com/our-products/deployment/). So a ZP 150 would not be out of the question by any means for the M5-1/2.

I specifically went for the Mirage M5-1/2 over the M4M or M4L because I tried on a friends Javelin Odyssey rig that was designed to be a longer rig, it had roughly the same dimensions as the longer M4. I personally didn't like the added length (1-2"), I found it sat on my buttocks when standing up and was rather uncomfortable compared to a standard length rig (I'm 5'9").

Here's a snip of an excel sheet I made, in the end I went for the Mirage over the other offerings because it fit the sizes I wanted; I could buy it directly through the Mirage site without dealing with a dealer (I had my friend measure me); but most importantly, the stock rig was reduced by ~$1000 during the Thanksgiving sale. Stock meaning the colors were pre-chosen but everything else was custom (measurements, options, etc). Fortunately, I don't have a creative bone in my body and I adore the stock design I went for!

That's what I did, take from it what you will, but it's up to you to decide what you want to do :^)

[Just to add, I'm only an A-licensed jumper and I don't want to be misconstrued as an overconfident/underinformed 100-jump wonder, though I did buy this after talking to my instructors about everything!]

skydiving.PNG

Edited by George Stuart-Ranchev
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29 minutes ago, George Stuart-Ranchev said:

Hey, I went through this exact train of thought late last year and ended up getting the Mirage M5-1/2, you can check the size chart here (...)

This is super helpful, thanks for sharing your perspective!

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