Youradhere 0 #1 Posted March 16, 2019 Hi, I have gotten mixed answers to this question so I wanted to ask here. Hopefully someone who owns one of these can chime in or a rigger who has experience with them I was told that the TSO may be written in a way that some riggers will pack it and others will not. Another source told me it has a TSO and there is no problem. The one I'm looking at was manufactured on 1999 if that makes a difference Anybody have any experience with this? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Deyan 36 #2 March 16, 2019 I have never seen one, so I don't know what's written on the label, but unless I'm wrong, PA has a 20 years lifetime on all its products . So that reserve will be unairworthy to start with! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Youradhere 0 #3 March 16, 2019 Thanks Deyan! I just checked the manual and this is a quote "The Airforce Reserve Parachute has a service life of 20 years from the Date of Manufacture stamped on the Parachute Canopy (whether used or in storage), due to the natural degradation of the textiles used for its manufacture." I'm still curious about the original question if anyone else has more info. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SKYCAM 0 #4 March 17, 2019 (edited) Hmm, not quite correct folks! Please check this doc, in particular page 2 PASB9502_Rev3.pdf Edited March 17, 2019 by SKYCAM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mark 107 #5 March 17, 2019 Here's what the manual says: Quote The Airforce Ram Air Reserve Parachute Canopy has been tested to the requirements of the Civil Aviation Authority, Civil Air Order 103.18 Equipment Standards – Emergency Parachutes. To demonstrate compliance with CAO 103.18, the United States Federal Aviation Administration, Technical Standard Order T.S.O – C23 (b) was used as the specification. Parachutes Australia has the authority to identify the Airforce Ram Air Reserve Parachute Canopy with Civil Aviation Authority CAO 103.18 markings. The Airforce reserve meets the requirements for a Low Speed Category Parachute and is limited to use in aeroplanes up to 150 miles per hour. TSO-C23b was superseded by C23c in 1984. When was the Airforce Reserve tested and certified? --Mark Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #6 March 17, 2019 Quote The Airforce Ram Air Reserve Parachute Canopy has been tested to the requirements of the Civil Aviation Authority, Civil Air Order 103.18 Equipment Standards – Emergency Parachutes. To demonstrate compliance with CAO 103.18, the United States Federal Aviation Administration, Technical Standard Order T.S.O – C23 (b) was used as the specification. Which makes it sound like it is not actually TSO'd (although I can't tell for sure from this info). It sounds like they used the TSO list of requirements, and did drop tests etc. to satisfy Australian requirements. That could be reassuring to an Australian customer. BUT... the gear wasn't actually entered into the US TSO system. Nor is there any sign that an Australian part 103.18 certification is automatically accepted as equivalent to a TSO by the US. Then you get into the issue, "But what if one is talking about a PA rig that was a license built copy of a US TSO'd Rigging Innovations rig?" That's certainly worth something to a jumper, but if it isn't actually produced in a TSO approved production facility, then it still can't count as having a TSO even if the design is TSO'd. (As a similar example, for one Canadian rig that was TSO'd, it was done through Transport Canada according to bilateral agreements with the FAA, so the FAA accepts it. So it has a real FAA TSO. Then the production plans and facility were approved & inspected so that it was run on a TSO approved production line. Years later, the company owner gave up the formal TSO certification as he wasn't selling many to the US anyway, so it wasn't worth the money to pay for the inspections the Canadian authorities were doing for the production line. A jumper can be reassured that the design actually went through all TSO tests which were accepted by the US, even if a current production rig doesn't actually have a TSO. An earlier rig could be jumped by a US resident, but the current ones can't.) Correct me if I'm wrong about TSO'd production lines -- I'm a bit hazy on that aspect and what formal terminology applies. 1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,236 #7 March 17, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, pchapman said: Years later, the company owner gave up the formal TSO certification as he wasn't selling many to the US anyway, so it wasn't worth the money to pay for the inspections the Canadian authorities were doing for the production line. Hi Peter, Al did not give up the formal TSO certification, he still holds it. What he does not have is the annual inspection approval of his facilities by Transport Canada. Jerry Baumchen PS) I 'think' that the FAA's position is that a TSO-authorization is valid until surrendered or revoked. Edited March 17, 2019 by JerryBaumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #8 March 17, 2019 Thanks Jerry. That gets at the 'terminology' issue I had -- how to describe something where the design has a TSO but a particular item, although built to the TSO plans, isn't TSO'd because it wasn't built through production facilities currently approved to build that TSO'd design... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,236 #9 March 17, 2019 1 hour ago, pchapman said: because it wasn't built through production facilities currently approved to build that TSO'd design... Hi Peter, That is exactly it. For many, many years the FAA went all over the world inspecting mfg facilities. Now, to save money I would think, they 'sub' it out to the national aviation organization in whatever country the mfr is located. Jerry Baumchen Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Youradhere 0 #10 March 17, 2019 14 hours ago, SKYCAM said: Hmm, not quite correct folks! Please check this doc, in particular page 2 PASB9502_Rev3.pdf Thanks skycam! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChrisHoward 8 #11 March 18, 2019 Does anyone out there remember a little thing called "Google"? A quick search turns up this: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet Seems like a good place to start. The Airforce Reserve is not listed among PAs other TSOs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
richwilk 2 #12 March 18, 2019 PA has a service life on some equipment, the Airforce reserve is TSO’d and has the same life limits as the US- providing the rigger is prepared to certify its airworthy, there is no in service limit. Check the Parachutes Australia website. The other source for information is the Australian Parachute Federation website asf.asn.au/equipment/parachutes Australia. Cheers. PA BRAND DESCRIPTION PART NUMBERS SERVICE LIFE 26 ft Lopo Reserve Parachute P008 ( ) Indefinite Aerolite Reserve Parachute P015 Indefinite X300 Reserve Parachute P004 Indefinite X228 Reserve Parachute P003 Indefinite Hobbit Reserve Parachute P010 Indefinite Airforce Reserve Parachute P036R ( ) Indefinite Hang Glider Backup Chute P030 Indefinite Talon 3 and Talon FS Dual Pack & Harness Systems Serial Number 10533 onwards Container: 4111(2) Harness: 5111(2) Assembly: S025 Indefinite Telesis Dual Pack & Harness System (all models) Container: 4113(2) Harness: 5113(2) Assembly: S026 Refer SB9502 rev.3 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pchapman 275 #13 March 18, 2019 1 hour ago, ChrisHoward said: Does anyone out there remember a little thing called "Google"? A quick search turns up this: http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgTSO.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet Seems like a good place to start. The Airforce Reserve is not listed among PAs other TSOs. Well yeah but it takes time. Thanks. One can use the awkward web interface there, or download / extract / filter the MS Access database as I did. The only Parachutes Australia items to show up are: ArticleNumber 6111-( ) [# my edit: that's the Talon 2 licensed copy#] P15 Pigmee S-7 Piggyback Thinpack Parachute Assy S5 and P8 Tandem dual pack S18 Slimpack S3 Trimpig S11 Slimpack II S3 S15 The Talon 2 is under C-23c category B, the rest under C-23b. As you were finding, this does confirm our suspicious that the Airforce reserve isn't TSO'd. As we already know from the bulletin, its life is now considered indefinite. So unless I missed something, an Airforce reserve of any age is jumpable in the US by visiting Aussies, visiting Canucks ("we don't need no steenkin' TSO"), but not resident 'Muricans. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shadeland 5 #14 March 19, 2019 (edited) One thing that I find that trips people up (myself included) is the terms "tested to TSO specifications" such as "TSO C23D tested" and "receiving FAA TSO authorization", the latter being required for being legal in the US and the former being useless as far as US legality is concerned. Unless there's a treaty with another country regarding foreign authorizations translating to an effective TSO authorization. It appears the Airforce Reserve does not have a US TSO authorization from the database search (though the model numbers in the database are... weird.) Whether its Australian certification translates to an effective TSO, I don't know. But I would assume at least at this point that it's not legal for a US citizen or foreign resident to jump in the US unless a treaty document can be verified (I couldn't find anything with a quick search). Edited March 19, 2019 by shadeland Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LavaLady 0 #15 March 23, 2019 On 3/18/2019 at 9:54 PM, richwilk said: PA has a service life on some equipment, the Airforce reserve is TSO’d and has the same life limits as the US- providing the rigger is prepared to certify its airworthy, there is no in service limit. Check the Parachutes Australia website. The other source for information is the Australian Parachute Federation website asf.asn.au/equipment/parachutes Australia. Cheers. PA BRAND DESCRIPTION PART NUMBERS SERVICE LIFE 26 ft Lopo Reserve Parachute P008 ( ) Indefinite Aerolite Reserve Parachute P015 Indefinite X300 Reserve Parachute P004 Indefinite X228 Reserve Parachute P003 Indefinite Hobbit Reserve Parachute P010 Indefinite Airforce Reserve Parachute P036R ( ) Indefinite Hang Glider Backup Chute P030 Indefinite Talon 3 and Talon FS Dual Pack & Harness Systems Serial Number 10533 onwards Container: 4111(2) Harness: 5111(2) Assembly: S025 Indefinite Telesis Dual Pack & Harness System (all models) Container: 4113(2) Harness: 5113(2) Assembly: S026 Refer SB9502 rev.3 APF web site now a .com address. https://www.apf.com.au/apf-members/equipment/equipment Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
