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baronn

To anyone considering donating money to the museum......

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Ron

Quote

I do not know much about the particular project



Some of us do.

***That lack of information does not mean there is a problem, it just means the information isn't public.



Which most of us would not care about if we were not paying for it, and potentially on the hook for paying more for it in the future.

If there is not information.... Then it IS a failure of the museum to communicate to gather support. I asked one of the "Ambassadors" and they said "If you wanted information, you should have traveled to Zhills and asked about it there during the event." So if I wanted information, I had to travel and pay to attend one of their events?

Again, if I was not paying for it.... I'd actually agree with him. But since they are getting USPA membership dollars, then I say the USPA members should be informed and not blown off.

Quote

I do however know about project management and non-profits.



You are not the only one with project management experience.


I’ve never seen so many people get this upset over spilled milk.

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LeeroyJenkins



I’ve never seen so many people get this upset over spilled milk.



It's a hell of a lot more than 'spilled milk'

Its a huge expenditure of our money into a project that has been stumbling and bumbling along for a loooong time with little to show for itself but a bunch of famous names and a collection of vintage equipment in storage.

You seem to think that studies and 'research' are understandable uses of the money.
That may well be true for a new project, but this hasn't been a 'new' project for some time.

They had a spot of land donated, but they seem to want to go elsewhere. The idea of being by a tunnel is a fools errand. The idea that people trying out the tunnel would spend more money to go through a skydiving museum is not totally stupid, but I don't see it as the attraction that it's being promoted as.

The idea that going through a museum of old gear and old people would motivate someone to take up the sport is silly.

The fact that the museum folks claim that the museum will be built next to a new tunnel that I-Fly won't confirm as real is one more thing that makes me really wary of what they are going to end up doing with the money.

If it could be confirmed that the tunnel will be built and the museum will actually go next to it, great.

But that doesn't seem to be the case. It seems far more likely that this is another 'snipe hunt', like so many the project has gone on throughout its history.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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LeeroyJenkins

***

Quote

I do not know much about the particular project



Some of us do.

***That lack of information does not mean there is a problem, it just means the information isn't public.



Which most of us would not care about if we were not paying for it, and potentially on the hook for paying more for it in the future.

If there is not information.... Then it IS a failure of the museum to communicate to gather support. I asked one of the "Ambassadors" and they said "If you wanted information, you should have traveled to Zhills and asked about it there during the event." So if I wanted information, I had to travel and pay to attend one of their events?

Again, if I was not paying for it.... I'd actually agree with him. But since they are getting USPA membership dollars, then I say the USPA members should be informed and not blown off.

Quote

I do however know about project management and non-profits.



You are not the only one with project management experience.


I’ve never seen so many people get this upset over spilled milk.

I have never seen someone this defensive over spilled milk. People have brought valid concerns about membership funds being wasted and all you have done is attack them for it.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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peek

***I asked one of the "Ambassadors" and they said "If you wanted information, you should have traveled to Zhills and asked about it there during the event."



Now who would that be?

Bob Lewis.
Here is that thread: https://www.facebook.com/rook.nelson/posts/10156865826656532?comment_id=10156866132706532

Bold by me....
Quote

Thank you. I will. I will get the numbers, making sure to be accurate and honest. At this point, and without adequate research, I would say that the Ottley family contributions, office space and an original donation was the only financial help from USPA. I will give you (you) the exact numbers by mid-week.......So, again, the people who are trying to say that somehow this museum is mistake and a fiscal weight around USPA's neck are being disingenuous or are being willfully ignorant.



That was six weeks ago and not a single set of numbers from him.

And from Bob:
Quote

As far as more funding in the future, I certainly hope so; a mutually beneficial relationship between the International Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame and the entire sport is the goal



So we have an "ambassador" flat out saying he hopes more money comes from the USPA.

His last reply:
Quote

I suggest you go to the Museum's events. Better yet, educate yourself. I will not continue to argue with someone who distorts what I say and hides their agenda.
You asked questions, I tried to answer but you refuse to learn and consider my exasperation as a refusal to debate this very important project. You cannot learn if you refuse to listen, repeat the same questions and construct rhetorical traps. I will be glad to talk with you or get you the information that you claim is being hidden but one-upsmanship is not a game that I have neither the time nor the tolerance. "It is easy to throw mud at the clowns in the parade but not to march with the band.



Basically, a "ambassador" insulting people, saying he hopes the USPA provides more funding, that he would provide information and didn't, and that said if I wanted information I would have to "educate myself".... But not providing the information he said he would supply.

Hard to educate yourself when the people who claim to know the answers and say they will provide them refuse to provide them.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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The response you experienced are consistent with what I have received. When the so called "Ambassadors" of this project get pressed for real answers, they choose to misdirect them and just accuse us of not knowing anything. Clearly they choose to keep it that way. Typical of what scammers do. Long history of that type of behavior and as consistent as the sun coming up tomorrow. Like many here, (Leeroy excluded) I'm not buying that BS. If they have nothing to hide, show it. The reality is they simply have nothing. Just a pipedream and they expect everyone to pay for their unrealistic and mismanaged fiasco. I am personally tired of that shit and refuse to sit idly by.
And if any of these "Ambassadors" actually read these forums, understand that I haven't found a single skydiver that DOESN'T want the museum. What I have found is we are pretty pissed off that after almost half a century, it still hasn't even got a plan. Except to raise money and induct members into it. Get this together or find someone that can. Don't expect us to support this idiocy.

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I’m “attacking” people that are blatantly ignorant about the subject. Stuff costs money and ideas like museums and any project from a non profit can take a very long time. Just getting out of the idea phase can take years.


A waste of money... you’re a great example. You don’t even know what they are spending your pocket change on yet you complain about it. And I say pocket change because it’s literly a couple of bucks of “your money.”

It’s pretty insane, really. The USPA wants the project to happen. For the project to happen it needs funding. Without the upfront funding there would be no project. I don’t understand what is hard to understand about this concept.

If you guys care so much about what the money is being spent on, look up their financials. If you don’t care stop bitching over a couple bucks and understand that projects like these can take a very very long time to achieve.

I know of projects that have been in the works for 50-60 years and they still aren’t going to begin construction for probably another 10 years if ever. That’s just how it works sometime.

I’m sure there are legitimate concerns with the viability of the current proposed plan but that’s not what people are complaining about. People are complaining about the fact the USPA voted to give a small amount of each members dues to a project the USPA wants to happen.


All of the being said I think building it next to a tunnel is a dumb idea and they should instead incorporate it into an already existing aviation museum.

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Quote

I’m “attacking” people that are blatantly ignorant about the subject.



People YOU claim are ignorant about the subject... While you yourself admit to be ignorant on the subject, but defend it. You just broke the irony meter.

Like I said, people bring valid complaints and instead of discussing the issue they brought, you insult them. You even admit you are doing it.

Discussing the topic with you is a waste of time, you only insult those you disagree with and avoid the actual issues - Out.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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Ron

Quote

I’m “attacking” people that are blatantly ignorant about the subject.



People YOU claim are ignorant about the subject... While you yourself admit to be ignorant on the subject, but defend it. You just broke the irony meter.

Like I said, people bring valid complaints and instead of discussing the issue they brought, you insult them. You even admit you are doing it.

Discussing the topic with you is a waste of time, you only insult those you disagree with and avoid the actual issues - Out.



See, the beauty of it is I'm not defending the museum project. I am only saying there criticism is misdirected and based on ignorance of the project. I am not saying they aren't wasting the money, I am saying the posters cant know they are. I am not saying they have a great plan, I am saying that the posters do not know if or what is happening behind the scenes.

I do not believe I have personally insulted anyone.

Quote

People YOU claim are ignorant about the subject... While you yourself admit to be ignorant on the subject, but defend it. You just broke the irony meter.



Not quite. People are ignorant about project management. I am not. I said I do not know the facts of this particular project. Those are not the same.


Moral of the story is, just because people posting here don't know what's going on doesn't mean that no one knows what's going on.

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See, the beauty of it is I'm not defending the museum project. I am only saying there criticism is misdirected and based on ignorance of the project. I am not saying they aren't wasting the money, I am saying the posters cant know they are. I am not saying they have a great plan, I am saying that the posters do not know if or what is happening behind the scenes.



2 problems with this;

1- If USPA is giving them our money, there shouldn't be a "behind the scenes". We should be given that information.

2- I, and others, have sought out the information behind scenes since it was not forthcoming. What we have gotten is either an unworkable plan, or nothing. If the museum wants our money, they need to be forthcoming with this information.

I am not against the museum. I am against USPA giving them a lot of money that could be used elsewhere (I know you keep calling it not much, but $150,000+ is not chump change) on a project that we don't know enough about. And what we do know is that it looks like USPA is wasting the money.

Quote

People are ignorant about project management. I am not.



Either am I.

Derek V

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Hooknswoop

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See, the beauty of it is I'm not defending the museum project. I am only saying there criticism is misdirected and based on ignorance of the project. I am not saying they aren't wasting the money, I am saying the posters cant know they are. I am not saying they have a great plan, I am saying that the posters do not know if or what is happening behind the scenes.



2 problems with this;

1- If USPA is giving them our money, there shouldn't be a "behind the scenes". We should be given that information.

2- I, and others, have sought out the information behind scenes since it was not forthcoming. What we have gotten is either an unworkable plan, or nothing. If the museum wants our money, they need to be forthcoming with this information.

I am not against the museum. I am against USPA giving them a lot of money that could be used elsewhere (I know you keep calling it not much, but $150,000+ is not chump change) on a project that we don't know enough about. And what we do know is that it looks like USPA is wasting the money.

***People are ignorant about project management. I am not.



Either am I.

Derek V


As we have talked offline, we mostly agree.

Everybody else.

Quote

And what we do know is that it looks like USPA is wasting the money.



Take note, this is how you criticize something you do not know the inner working of.

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Quote

As we have talked offline, we mostly agree.



Yep.

Quote

Take note, this is how you criticize something you do not know the inner working of.



Given that I have asked the museum for more information and they have stopped responding and the onus is on the museum to present that information since they are taking our money, I have met them more than halfway. I am justified at this point in criticizing USPA's donations to the museum and the museum's failure to provide more information.

When asked, they did not say they are working on a new plan, since their current plan is not going anywhere. They sticking with the current, unworkable, plan.

“Saturday, March 28, 2015 - 21:01
The Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame is pleased to announce it is collaborating with Skyventure iFly to co-locate the Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame with a 16-foot iFly wind tunnel in North Orlando, Florida. The museum is currently working with a leading design firm to combine building space and functions and iFly is actively searching for a suitable piece of property as a venue for the combined facility. The co-venture is expected to open its doors in 2018.”

"Good morning, as soon I answer your question, I will be wrong. However the best estimate we can give you is that we are three-four years from opening the doors. However, if iFLY accelerates their timeline, we will move sooner."

"Good day, iFLY has identified a few pieces of real estate in North Orlando and are in discussions with the developers; that is the most we can tell you at this point in time."

Derek V

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It is estimated that the pyramids in Egypt took somewhere between 10-20 yrs to complete. If you have a business idea, you lay out a plan and then seek funding. Only in Governments or apparently, the ISMHOF, wude it even be considered to do this backwards.
Far more than twice as long (so far) and an Ass backwards approach. Don't need to have much experience in, well, anything to recognize a total failure when ya see it.

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I spoke for a very long time with my pal Jim McCormick. He was one of the folks that pitched the donation idea to the BOD.

Here are some facts.
Ifly agreed to donate some space in a yet to be built wind tunnel.

The museum folks want to raise $14,000,000 for the project.

There is no plan B, such as an existing aviation museum or drop zone location.

A consultant from Boston told them 65,000 visitors would pay each year to visit it and Orlando is a great location due to the amount of tourism. That’s 178 paying visitors per day, 365 days per year.

They plan on hiring about 21 employees.

There is an interactive map planned where people can find the closest group member drop zone to their home to make a jump.

After opening, they will still need an anticipated $300,000 to $400,000 in donations to stay open.

The hope is that after the USPA agreed to funding, that other national associations would follow. Maybe some foreign jumpers can let us know if that has happened with their associations.

I have many good friends that are involved in the project. I agree that we need a museum and I think the HOF is a nice add on. I have donated privately to the museum.

However,

I think usuing USPA dues, no matter how large or small, is not a proper use of our money.

We could start an entire thread on what difficulties our sport currently faces, and what is coming down the road to affect skydiving in the USA. Unfortunately, I think we’re going to need that money sooner than later.

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Hi Leeroy,

Quote

People are ignorant about project management.



You support the museum; I do not.

That statement is an insult to a lot of 'people' that you do not even know.

I spent 30 yrs in project mgt; some from dirt to turnkey; some in very remote locations.

You are not the know-it-all.

Jerry Baumchen

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JerryBaumchen

Hi Leeroy,

Quote

People are ignorant about project management.



You support the museum; I do not.

That statement is an insult to a lot of 'people' that you do not even know.

I spent 30 yrs in project mgt; some from dirt to turnkey; some in very remote locations.

You are not the know-it-all.

Jerry Baumchen




Being ignorant about something isn't an insult. It is a fact of life. Saying people are ignorant about something as small as construction project management really isn't an insult. Unless you worked in it you aren't going to know much about it. Seriously, what a weird claim. I'm not going to get insulted if someone tells me I'm ignorant about a topic that I have no formal education of work experience in. If you someone does get insulted by that, I really don't know what to tell them.

I like the idea of a skydiving museum, I however do not support the plan for this museum to be built in a tunnel. I however still fully support the use of less than $1.00 of my membership dues to go towards the a skydiving museum. I also never replied to/or commented back at you. I had to go back through this post to see if you even commented.

The person who started this thread however just said
Quote

It is estimated that the pyramids in Egypt took somewhere between 10-20 yrs to complete. If you have a business idea, you lay out a plan and then seek funding. Only in Governments or apparently, the ISMHOF, wude it even be considered to do this backwards.
Far more than twice as long (so far) and an Ass backwards approach. Don't need to have much experience in, well, anything to recognize a total failure when ya see it.



Which shows to those of us that understand it, that they are completely ignorant about projects of this magnitude.

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LeeroyJenkins



Which shows to those of us that understand it, that they are completely ignorant about projects of this magnitude.



Projects of what magnitude?

Building a small-to-medium sized building?

Filling it with artifacts from the sport?

Nominating deserving people from the sport? (That's already accomplished)

None of this stuff is all that complicated or hard.

They aren't building a skyscraper.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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grimmie

I spoke for a very long time with my pal Jim McCormick. He was one of the folks that pitched the donation idea to the BOD. Here are some facts. (see post #40)



Thank you Rich for a very good report! I hope that enough people take the time to read and understand the significant parts of that report.

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After opening, they will still need an anticipated $300,000 to $400,000 in donations to stay open.

The hope is that after the USPA agreed to funding, that other national associations would follow.



Thanks Rich.... And this is the issue, they KNOW that it will not be self supporting. At least one Ambassador has stated he wants more money from the USPA.

Quote

We could start an entire thread on what difficulties our sport currently faces, and what is coming down the road to affect skydiving in the USA. Unfortunately, I think we’re going to need that money sooner than later.



Exactly. This is not about a museum, this is about giving money to a private organization with a questionable plan (or at least a plan that seems poor because of a lack of communication). And that money we sure as hell could use in other areas that are DIRECTLY in line with the charter of the USPA, like helping our teams or airport defense.
"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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If that is the plan it will never happen. Unless a white knight rides to the rescue. Thinking that the general public will pay to see a skydiving museum ridiculous. Thinking that other National associations will contribute to an American museum in FL is beyond ridiculous. The people behind this are full of themselves. Not an uncommon thing among skydivers in my experience.

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wolfriverjoe

***

Which shows to those of us that understand it, that they are completely ignorant about projects of this magnitude.



Projects of what magnitude?

Building a small-to-medium sized building?

Filling it with artifacts from the sport?

Nominating deserving people from the sport? (That's already accomplished)

None of this stuff is all that complicated or hard.

They aren't building a skyscraper.


Case and point.

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LeeroyJenkins



Case and point.



Don't you mean "Case in point"?

And how is it so?

They've had decades to put this together.

And they currently don't even have a site selected.
"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

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The reason I started this thread was to bring awareness to this project and what I felt, was an inappropriate use of members funds. What we are finding is that it is exposing an even bigger problem. The absolute lack of ANY obvious investigation from the board before deciding to donate members funds. A total lack of any kind of workable plan to make it happen and then to top it off, an arrogant, better than you, you know nothing and need to just give us the money and we can do whatever we want attitude. Geez, that remind anyone of another overpowering entity? Anyone supporting this is simply refusing to look at facts. IF this is ever gonna get done, a total rework of the entire project is in order and anyone that wants to defend the failed actions of the past needs to go. The fact that after half a century and the passing of many pioneers in our sport is just shameful. At this rate, we're all gonna be gone before it happens.

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wolfriverjoe

***

Case and point.



Don't you mean "Case in point"?

And how is it so?

They've had decades to put this together.

And they currently don't even have a site selected.

Apparently I have been spelling that idiom wrong forever.

Sometimes projects take a very long to make it from the idea stage to the planning stage, this is more true for non-profits. Sometimes they don't make it out of the planning stage or are shelved for decades. Imagine having an idea and then needing to raise 15m for your idea. Tell me how long you think it would take.

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