By their fruits

[AtrusBatleth 0]

gowlerk

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We live in a fallen world where most people do not honor or obey God

But there are so many ways to honour and obey so many ideas of God. The world is not fallen just because the book of ancient ideas you have chosen is not universally accepted. That is a very narrow viewpoint. If there is a creator thank Her that She is God of all, and not just your tribe. The world is full of many tribes. All are worthy in the eyes of the Creator.

The context of my statement (as I already clarified) was a conversation between Christians. As a follower of Christ, I believe in the authority of scripture, and that there is only one god, the creator of all that ever was, is, and ever will be. There are many tribes, and it is god's will that Christians go out and make disciples of every tribe. God loves every person no matter what tribe. But all are "equally worthy" in his eyes, which is to say equally unworthy. God's word makes it clear we are all sinful, and are all in need of being saved through Christ. Only those who believe on Jesus will be saved and considered "worthy" in the eyes of the creator.

That is what I would expect a Christian to understand. But as an unbeliever, I can understand why you dismiss scripture as merely man-made and flawed, just one among many man-made beliefs. That is to your own detriment, but you have that freedom. From a biblical perspective, we live in a fallen world and most people do not honor scripture or obey god.

Re: billvon,
Yes I agree it is sad to see Christians using scripture to support Trump. I can understand those that choose to "tolerate" the man for the sake of some of the secular objectives he has (lesser of two evils argument), but I can't relate to those that think he is actually a believer. He is respectful of believers in certain contexts, sure, but that doesn't make him a believer. I can be respectful of my Muslim family, Jewish and atheist friends, etc, but I don't share their beliefs.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[gowlerk 1,912]

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That is what I would expect a Christian to understand. But as an unbeliever, I can understand why you dismiss scripture as merely man-made and flawed, just one among many man-made beliefs. That is to your own detriment, but you have that freedom. From a biblical perspective, we live in a fallen world and most people do not honor scripture or obey god.

Thank you for your explanation of how you believe that every one of God's people who do not believe as you believe do so at their own detriment. This of course means that you believe only your tribe can be correct. The amount of passive aggressive hubris spewing from those who assert these beliefs is amazing.

The level of condensation and smugness about how you are above the "fallen world" is typical of American believers. Faith is a personal thing. All the people of the world, each and everyone must decide what to believe. Even if they believe that wonder is the only valid belief as I do.

You will noticed that I have not denied your beliefs. Only your feeling about the rest of humanity. Do not dishonour myself and billions of other human beings, each the equal of you, as "fallen". We are not fallen and the world is not fallen. The universe is a wonderful thing full of mysteries. In comparison to the unknown truths that are real your beliefs are extremely shallow. But if they are what you feel you need I'm fine with it.

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There are many tribes, and it is god's will that Christians go out and make disciples of every tribe.

This particular belief has generally been cited throughout history as an excuse to make war and expand territory. Just as as similar belief lies at the foundation of Islam. Believing that God wants your tribe's religion to dominate or exterminate others has been the source of more evil deeds in the world than any other single cause. Except if you consider it to be really just an excuse to take away other people's territory. Which is at the root of both Christianity and Islam. These ideas are dangerous, even if they been very successful over time.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,400]

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Thank you for your explanation of how you believe that every one of God's people who do not believe as you believe do so at their own detriment. This of course means that you believe only your tribe can be correct.

EVERYONE believes their own worldview is the most correct one. That's human nature.

I disagree with Atrus here on a lot of things, but I definitely agree with the sentiment here - "I can be respectful of my Muslim family, Jewish and atheist friends, etc, but I don't share their beliefs." We'd all be better off if we could do that all the time.

[gowlerk 1,912]

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I disagree with Atrus here on a lot of things, but I definitely agree with the sentiment here - "I can be respectful of my Muslim family, Jewish and atheist friends, etc, but I don't share their beliefs." We'd all be better off if we could do that all the time.

You can certainly act respectful, and behave respectfully. But in your heart can you really hold these opposing views about who is fallen and hell bound. Condemned to the bosom of Satan for eternity as unworthy? And respect as well? I put it to you that either you are fooling yourself about your faith or you are fooling yourself about your feelings for others.

But of course, I would gladly settle for respectful behavior. In my eyes I have nothing to lose as long as everyone does that. But a religion that teaches what the two big religions teach will inevitably have extremists. Or, as we call them today, fundamentalists. And they will use their beliefs as an excuse to do evil. That's also human nature.

I am not fallen. I am not under the influence of evil spirits. I have different beliefs. If someone calls me fallen I will take it as the insult it is and defend myself.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

"Passive aggressive hubris..."
Where are you seeing this? I was stating my beliefs, not trying to be aggressive. If you take offense, it is with the bible. My Muslim friends believe I am an infidel and will not see paradise. My Jewish friends believe I am a blasphemer equating Jesus with god. My atheist friends, well they think I am just wasting my time and setting back the progress of humanity. I don't consider any of them to be aggressive towards me. We have mutually exclusive beliefs and have agreed to disagree.

Perhaps it would help to explain when I say "fallen world" I mean that the perfect world God created fell from grace when we sinned against him. The present world of sin, disease, death, hatred, lies, etc is not the perfect world God created. It was not supposed to be this way; death is an intruder. That is why Christians call it fallen.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[gowlerk 1,912]

Well let me ask you this then. Are you fallen as well?

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Only those who believe on Jesus will be saved and considered "worthy" in the eyes of the creator.

Am I not worthy? Only you and yours?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[billvon 2,400]

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But in your heart can you really hold these opposing views about who is fallen and hell bound. Condemned to the bosom of Satan for eternity as unworthy? And respect as well?

I don't think any of that means you can't respect someone. In general it's not the believer that's condemning them to eternal damnation, the believer thinks that the person's actions (murder, blasphemy, homosexuality, eating pork, wearing a polyester blend to church, whatever) is what condemns them via some external agency.

You can believe that someone is a religious nutcase and still respect them, right?

[AtrusBatleth 0]

gowlerk

Well let me ask you this then. Are you fallen as well?

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Only those who believe on Jesus will be saved and considered "worthy" in the eyes of the creator.

Am I not worthy? Only you and yours?

Absolutely I am fallen. I am imperfect, I am a sinner, I deserve death eternal. I am saved not by my own good deeds, but by the grace of god. That same grace is a gift that is offered freely to each of us. But we each have the free will to choose to accept that gift or reject it. The first step though is admitting you have a problem. According to the bible, we all do. According to the world, we are "enlightened" and do not need saving. The choice is yours.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[timski 80]

But wait, it gets even better. Apparently the "militia men" of the lower border lands are gathering and plan on taking the "fight" to them. Armed to the gills no doubt.

WTF.

[gowlerk 1,912]

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You can believe that someone is a religious nutcase and still respect them, right?

Hmmmm...... maybe. Depends on the level of nutcase and also the level of respect you are talking about.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,912]

timski

But wait, it gets even better. Apparently the "militia men" of the lower border lands are gathering and plan on taking the "fight" to them. Armed to the gills no doubt.

WTF.

May God be with them. On both sides of the border.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[gowlerk 1,912]

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Absolutely I am fallen. I am imperfect, I am a sinner, I deserve death eternal. I am saved not by my own good deeds, but by the grace of god. That same grace is a gift that is offered freely to each of us. But we each have the free will to choose to accept that gift or reject it. The first step though is admitting you have a problem. According to the bible, we all do. According to the world, we are "enlightened" and do not need saving. The choice is yours.

That's all very fine theology. But there is a bottom line in there. You and yours are enlightened. Everyone else is not and is condemned. I on the other hand hold no belief that you are condemned. All that makes no real difference. Until you or your leaders decide that I need to be converted. For my own good. That is when your tribe does evil. And then you will either participate or turn the other way. Just like all the other Christians did during the pogroms. And this is my objection to Christianity. It's not the beliefs, it's the behavior. But the behavior is driven and justified by the beliefs.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[normiss 622]

Mexican American War V2.0?

[SkyDekker 1,122]

timski

But wait, it gets even better. Apparently the "militia men" of the lower border lands are gathering and plan on taking the "fight" to them. Armed to the gills no doubt.

WTF.

There are a lot of crazy people.

[JoeWeber 2,299]

AtrusBatleth

***

Did you really need to go fallen world love Jesus on us? Believe it if you want, Max, but please at least try to understand why others do not.

I was responding to the original poster, who I presumed was a Christian based on opening the post with a biblical focus. I understand plenty why others choose not to believe. I was once there myself.

Altrus,

I have no problem with anyones beliefs providing they don't impose on mine.

In this instance I ask only that you recognize that, as benign a definition as you might apply, calling me fallen is, to me, far worse an insult than calling me an asshole. Mainly because one is an honorific and the other one earned.


Joe

[AtrusBatleth 0]

I called the whole world fallen. It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture. I honestly don't understand why one would take offense at this. It is not intended as an insult any more than saying someone with cancer is "sick". Unless you think we live in a perfect world, why object to calling it fallen? You don't even have to believe in scripture as I do; recognizing the world is imperfect should be something we can all agree on.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[JoeWeber 2,299]

AtrusBatleth

I called the whole world fallen. It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture. I honestly don't understand why one would take offense at this. It is not intended as an insult any more than saying someone with cancer is "sick". Unless you think we live in a perfect world, why object to calling it fallen? You don't even have to believe in scripture as I do; recognizing the world is imperfect should be something we can all agree on.

Because it means Fallen from Grace. I am not.

[gowlerk 1,912]

AtrusBatleth

I called the whole world fallen. It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture. I honestly don't understand why one would take offense at this. It is not intended as an insult any more than saying someone with cancer is "sick". Unless you think we live in a perfect world, why object to calling it fallen? You don't even have to believe in scripture as I do; recognizing the world is imperfect should be something we can all agree on.

That's just plain obtuse. Fallen in the sense you are talking about means condemned. Satan fell and God sent him away. That's what fallen means. It does not merely mean imperfect. The insulting part is that you and yours have returned to grace, but the rest of us remain fallen.

I recognize that most Christians don't necessarily hate the fallen. But large numbers of them do look down on us in a most condescending way. And yes, I also realize that many atheists do the same. I am no fan of people who argue that faith is false. I know it is false, but I feel no need to convince you or anyone else of that. The Christoper Hitchens style of in your face "I can prove you are wrong" arguing is just as offensive to me. None of us can prove anything about the nature of our existence. Whatever any of us believe, it is incorrect. Because it is beyond our imagining.

Oh, and this

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It is a fundamental truth taught by scripture.

Is an oxymoron.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

gowlerk

That's just plain obtuse. Fallen in the sense you are talking about means condemned. Satan fell and God sent him away. That's what fallen means. It does not merely mean imperfect. The insulting part is that you and yours have returned to grace, but the rest of us remain fallen.

I recognize that most Christians don't necessarily hate the fallen. But large numbers of them do look down on us in a most condescending way.

It is because we are imperfect that we have been condemned; the meanings are one and the same. And yes, I have been forgiven, but I would never look down on you in a condescending way as if to say "I'm saved, sucks to be you, rot in hell". I regret that others apparently have done so to you, as that is most un-Christlike. I look on you with love not hate, pleading with you to accept the free gift being offered to you because I wish that every one would be saved, as is the will of god. From my perspective, you are falling through the sky without a rig on and I'm trying to grab you to save your life. If you don't believe me and turn me away, I mourn your choice. But why take offense if you don't believe you are in danger? Even when I was an atheist I never took offense at Christians trying to persuade me. I recognized that they did so out of a genuine concern for my well-being, even if I thought at the time they were misguided. I will respect your choice if you think the bible is all hogwash, but I don't understand taking offense at someone sincerely trying to save your life. Maybe I'm just being obtuse; I already said I'm not perfect.

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[normiss 622]

As a non-believer, I never tell others they are "in danger".
I leave people be to their own life and the choices they make.
It gets old being told you're going to hell, every day, door knockers, guys screaming in the streets, politicians trying to force their religious beliefs on us. Being force fed religious beliefs and advice is an insult IMO. We're all adults, make our own decisions and choices, and responsible for them as well.
Our country isn't based in religion and never has been.
Let's keep it that way and just respect and love each other as humans.

[gowlerk 1,912]

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From my perspective, you are falling through the sky without a rig on and I'm trying to grab you to save your life. If you don't believe me and turn me away, I mourn your choice. But why take offense if you don't believe you are in danger?

It's basically a combination of two things. The first is the level of condensation that you should think that. I'm pretty much being told by you that that I'm a fool. You will perhaps not understand that, but you aren't trying to understand it because you don't want to. I do not need to be saved. It's like the Mormons adding their Jewish relatives to the list of saved ancestors. It does not harm anyone, but it drives people crazy. It is insulting.

The other thing is the constant vigilance that atheists must maintain because the majority religion has so many people who would love to turn both our nations into Christian Republics. People who want to be free of the tyranny of fundamentalism must always be on guard. Ireland just voted out a constitutional clause making blasphemy a crime. Faith has always been used as a tool to organize societies. That has been it's strength and is why leaders love it so much. You see it as a path to joy. I see it as a danger and a path to oppression.

You are talking to a man who as a boy in grade eight was suspended three days from school for refusing to stand for the Lord's Prayer. The principle accused me of not respecting other people's belief and could not understand respecting my belief. After the three days I came back and still did not stand. They just let it go. Three years later the prayer was dropped from the morning routine. Because they finally figured out that it is wrong to shove your religion down the throats of children. Faith is private, but Christians like to think they are God's soldiers marching as to war.

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

[wolfriverjoe 1,340]

AtrusBatleth

***
That's just plain obtuse. Fallen in the sense you are talking about means condemned. Satan fell and God sent him away. That's what fallen means. It does not merely mean imperfect. The insulting part is that you and yours have returned to grace, but the rest of us remain fallen.

I recognize that most Christians don't necessarily hate the fallen. But large numbers of them do look down on us in a most condescending way.

It is because we are imperfect that we have been condemned; the meanings are one and the same. And yes, I have been forgiven, but I would never look down on you in a condescending way as if to say "I'm saved, sucks to be you, rot in hell". I regret that others apparently have done so to you, as that is most un-Christlike. I look on you with love not hate, pleading with you to accept the free gift being offered to you because I wish that every one would be saved, as is the will of god. From my perspective, you are falling through the sky without a rig on and I'm trying to grab you to save your life. If you don't believe me and turn me away, I mourn your choice. But why take offense if you don't believe you are in danger? Even when I was an atheist I never took offense at Christians trying to persuade me. I recognized that they did so out of a genuine concern for my well-being, even if I thought at the time they were misguided. I will respect your choice if you think the bible is all hogwash, but I don't understand taking offense at someone sincerely trying to save your life. Maybe I'm just being obtuse; I already said I'm not perfect.

You aren't trying to 'save my life', you're trying to convert me to your beliefs.

How would you feel if I told you that I don't look on you with hatred, but pity? Pity that you have fallen victim to the biggest con in the history of man? That your faith is nothing more than lies?

From my perspective, you have completely lost all rational thought in favor of fables, legends and folk tales from the Bronze Age.

And the idea that for all of us to be 'saved' is the "Will of God" is particularly laughable.
Who are we being saved from? The same entity that 'created' us in the first place?

AtrusBatleth

Perhaps it would help to explain when I say "fallen world" I mean that the perfect world God created fell from grace when we sinned against him. The present world of sin, disease, death, hatred, lies, etc is not the perfect world God created. It was not supposed to be this way; death is an intruder.

This is one of the silliest arguments made.

If God created a perfect world, why did he not create perfect humans?

And if he created imperfect humans, he did not create a perfect world.

Condemning us for being imperfect when He himself created us that way is the biggest 'gotcha' ever.
The claim that we humans chose death when we were told not to eat the fruit of that tree is hilarious. As was noted, there's no way to get away from that. God would have offered temptation after temptation until someone took it. It's the sort of mentality that puts hats on the pavement with bricks under them.

One of the biggest fallacies of religion is the idea of life after death. Of an 'eternal soul' that continues after we die.

Death is probably the greatest fear of just about everyone. The idea that we don't have to die is the comfort that religion offers.

But, of course, there's a choice. We can do what we are told, so that we can go to "Paradise". Or we can do what those in power tell us not to do, in which case, we 'suffer eternal torture' in the 'depths of hell'.

The lengths people will go to to 'be sure' that they won't die or will live on after their death in the 'right' place is amazing.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[riggerrob 558]

Good point!
“Onward Christian Soldiers .....” the dominant hymn sung by Canadian Army padres.

During WW2, Nazi soldiers wore belt buckles inscribed with the motto “Got mit uns.”
Only one side can be correct.

[AtrusBatleth 0]

God created us with free will. That is why there is sin. If he had created "perfect humans" that had no choice, there would be no love. God considered it worth creating beings that would largely choose to reject him to make it possible for some to choose to love him.

Understand that converting others to "my beliefs" (in the authority of scripture), is what I believe saves their lives. You don't believe me, I get that, but at least understand my motives are good. As for how I would feel if you think I am wasting my time, I already said I would not be offended. It is exactly what I would expect from an atheist; I used to be one. I don't seek your approval for my beliefs and they are not impacted if you ridicule them, so go ahead. I will continue to hope that you may yet one day change your mind and believe in scripture. If scripture is true and I didn't try to share it, that would not be very loving of me. If scripture is made up and there is no God as you seem to believe, well then it really makes no difference whether you convinced me of your beliefs does it? See the difference? It's easy to say "keep your beliefs to yourself and let everyone believe what they will" when you don't really believe any of it is true. It's more difficult to say "these people are drowning and I have a life preserver, but I'll just keep it to myself and see if they find their own life preserver."

Max Peck
What's the point of having top secret code names, fellas, if we ain't gonna use 'em?

[gowlerk 1,912]

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If he had created "perfect humans" that had no choice, there would be no love.

Off topic now, because we've beaten all the corners off of it so that it is round and just going in circles.

The ultimate proof of the falsehood of the Bible? The belief that God created man in his own image. How much conceit can be contained in one belief?

Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.