More mass shootings

[billvon 2,400]

>There have been two posts on here in the last 12 hours referring to guns as the reasons
>for the shootings. Maybe more but I wouldn't have seen all the posts. That doesn't sound
>right to me either. So why the emphasis on only looking at the tool but not the reason for
>using it?

Guns are not the "reason" for school shootings. Social media is not the "reason" for school shootings. Neither is abortion, or doors, or pornography. There are as many reasons as there are shooters.

Easy availability of guns is ONE of the FACTORS (a big one) that lead to school shootings. Social media is another one of those factors, but less central to the issue. Because you can have a school shooting without social media - but you can't have one if people can't get the guns to carry it off.

[jcd11235 0]

Bob_Church

How hard is it to go to a dictionary or some online service and look up the difference between allow and cause?

For the purposes of public policy, the distinction is frequently, and with good reason, moot.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[Bob_Church 7]

"Social media is not the "reason" for school shootings."

What do you base that statement on?

[Bob_Church 7]

By definition, you can't go on a shooting spree if you don't have a gun. Does it cause the desire to shoot people? No. Does it make it possible to shoot people? Of course.

A gun is a tool. It is an inanimate object, it can't go on a shooting spree by itself. For that you need a crazed killer. Conversely, a crazed killer can't go on a shooting spree without a gun. You need both ingredients. "

Something to remember is that if this is true, and I agree that it is, then a gun doesn't care if it's in a school, a Mall, the park or anywhere else. You pull the trigger and the bullets come out the end.

If we want these mass shootings to stop then we have to find out why people are finding themselves in a position where they want to shoot a bunch of people. But to do that we have to take an open and honest look and quit ignoring tons of reports even if it may very well mean accepting limitations on something we want to use in an unlimited way.

[billvon 2,400]

>What do you base that statement on?

Because there were school shootings before social media.

[DanG 1]

Pretty much everyone agrees that mental health, misuse of social media, the violent nature of entertainment, and a host of other social issues need to be addressed. The bright line between people seems to be that some will absolutely never add gun availability to that list.

In my opinion easy access to guns is one of the social problem that needs to be addressed. It is not the only problem, and I honestly haven't seen anyone suggesting it is.

I think what you are commenting on is that some people see guns as a more significant problem than social media. That doesn't mean they don't think social media is a problem. It just means they think we should focus on guns. Obviously you disagree, but you're mischaracterizing other people's position.

- Dan G

[Bob_Church 7]

DanG

Pretty much everyone agrees that mental health, misuse of social media, the violent nature of entertainment, and a host of other social issues need to be addressed. The bright line between people seems to be that some will absolutely never add gun availability to that list.

In my opinion easy access to guns is one of the social problem that needs to be addressed. It is not the only problem, and I honestly haven't seen anyone suggesting it is.

I think what you are commenting on is that some people see guns as a more significant problem than social media. That doesn't mean they don't think social media is a problem. It just means they think we should focus on guns. Obviously you disagree, but you're mischaracterizing other people's position.

I don't see that, though if you're correct maybe I wouldn't. But statements like "social media does not cause mass shootings" seem pretty unambiguous.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Bob_Church

***Pretty much everyone agrees that mental health, misuse of social media, the violent nature of entertainment, and a host of other social issues need to be addressed. The bright line between people seems to be that some will absolutely never add gun availability to that list.

In my opinion easy access to guns is one of the social problem that needs to be addressed. It is not the only problem, and I honestly haven't seen anyone suggesting it is.

I think what you are commenting on is that some people see guns as a more significant problem than social media. That doesn't mean they don't think social media is a problem. It just means they think we should focus on guns. Obviously you disagree, but you're mischaracterizing other people's position.

I don't see that, though if you're correct maybe I wouldn't. But statements like "social media does not cause mass shootings" seem pretty unambiguous.

Because it is factually correct. Otherwise there would have been no school shootings prior to the advent of social media. There have been, plenty.

You can take away all social media and still have school shootings.

You can't take away all guns and still have school shootings.

You can take away all the guns and still have school violence.

Nothing is going to work 100%. I believe the goal should be to reduce quantity and severity of school violence (and violence in general). Social media, mental health care, glorification of violence etc all deal with the frequency of the violence. Availability of guns deals with the severity of the violence.

Most people would be able to understand that dealing with one side should not mean not dealing with the other side.

[DanG 1]

Did social media cause the Columbine shooting?

- Dan G

[wmw999 2,121]

Social media are not the cause of shootings, any more than humans are the cause of climate change. I’d say that social media are less causative than humans, but both contribute.
Causes probably include the desensitization to violence from both games and media (remember hyper-violence in “A Clockwork Orange?”), as well as the ability for someone to “ distinguish” themself via a shooting (are we individuals if we can’t stand out?). Guns are the tool. If they weren’t as easily available, people would either do more lame-o attacks using things like knives, or they’d find some other way to “distinguish” themselves like being football hooligans.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[SkyDekker 1,122]

wmw999

Social media are not the cause of shootings, any more than humans are the cause of climate change. I’d say that social media are less causative than humans, but both contribute.
Causes probably include the desensitization to violence from both games and media (remember hyper-violence in “A Clockwork Orange?”), as well as the ability for someone to “ distinguish” themself via a shooting (are we individuals if we can’t stand out?). Guns are the tool. If they weren’t as easily available, people would either do more lame-o attacks using things like knives, or they’d find some other way to “distinguish” themselves like being football hooligans.

Wendy P.

Agreed, there is no single one cause for violence.

And agreed, violence will never go away. Like I said, focus on one side on decreasing the incidence of violent actions. Things like better mental health care, less desensitization to violence helps.

On the other hand, the tools used during the violent action to a large extent shape the severity of the outcome. Imagine football hooligans all armed with guns. Then imagine school violence with mainly just property damage.

Which would you prefer?

[Bob_Church 7]

DanG

Did social media cause the Columbine shooting?

I don't think so. They were active online but I think that was only the planning stages.

[Bob_Church 7]

wmw999

Social media are not the cause of shootings, any more than humans are the cause of climate change. I’d say that social media are less causative than humans, but both contribute.
Causes probably include the desensitization to violence from both games and media (remember hyper-violence in “A Clockwork Orange?”), as well as the ability for someone to “ distinguish” themself via a shooting (are we individuals if we can’t stand out?). Guns are the tool. If they weren’t as easily available, people would either do more lame-o attacks using things like knives, or they’d find some other way to “distinguish” themselves like being football hooligans.

Wendy P.

But we were discussion school shootings. Is it so unrealistic to think they should at least look at the results of normal high school bullying going 24/7. I'm talking about a kid snapping and taking a gun to school to finish things.

[billvon 2,400]

Quote

But we were discussion school shootings. Is it so unrealistic to think they should at least look at the results of normal high school bullying going 24/7. I'm talking about a kid snapping and taking a gun to school to finish things.

Definitely. Looking at bullying (and social media amplification, and better mental health diagnosis and treatment) are all good things to do.

Still, no matter how much you work to head such behavior off, it can happen. I think everyone would agree that if a kid does snap, it would be best if they can't get their hands on an AR-15.

[Bob_Church 7]

billvon

Quote

But we were discussion school shootings. Is it so unrealistic to think they should at least look at the results of normal high school bullying going 24/7. I'm talking about a kid snapping and taking a gun to school to finish things.

Definitely. Looking at bullying (and social media amplification, and better mental health diagnosis and treatment) are all good things to do.

Still, no matter how much you work to head such behavior off, it can happen. I think everyone would agree that if a kid does snap, it would be best if they can't get their hands on an AR-15.

Do you believe that there is a way to keep kids from being able to get their hands on a firearm they could use to carry out a school shooting?

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Bob_Church

***

Quote

But we were discussion school shootings. Is it so unrealistic to think they should at least look at the results of normal high school bullying going 24/7. I'm talking about a kid snapping and taking a gun to school to finish things.

Definitely. Looking at bullying (and social media amplification, and better mental health diagnosis and treatment) are all good things to do.

Still, no matter how much you work to head such behavior off, it can happen. I think everyone would agree that if a kid does snap, it would be best if they can't get their hands on an AR-15.

Do you believe that there is a way to keep kids from being able to get their hands on a firearm they could use to carry out a school shooting?

Considering a large part of the rest of the world has been able to. Yeah, I am pretty sure it is possible. There is precedent. Would you suggest otherwise?

[DanG 1]

Right. Before social media we had Columbine. You’re focused on a single cause just like the anti-gun people are focused on a single cause.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,400]

>Do you believe that there is a way to keep kids from being able to get their hands on a
>firearm they could use to carry out a school shooting?

I think there is a way to make it much less likely that they can get their hands on a firearm they could use to carry out a school shooting, yes.

[Bob_Church 7]

"Social media are not the cause of shootings, any more than humans are the cause of climate change. I’d say that social media are less causative than humans, but both contribut"

High School kids are committing suicide over what people post about them on Facebook. Is it really that difficult to believe that some decide to take the bullies with them?

[wmw999 2,121]

They’re a cause, but not the cause. Because not all of those kids have social media accounts that take lots of abuse, and lots of kids take abuse on social media and don’t attack schools.

Until a good vaccine is developed, maybe we need to perform situational avoidance and treat symptoms, like they do with the flu and diarrheal diseases.

Of course, people are a lot more complicated than diarrhea

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bob_Church 7]

wmw999

They’re a cause, but not the cause. Because not all of those kids have social media accounts that take lots of abuse, and lots of kids take abuse on social media and don’t attack schools.

Until a good vaccine is developed, maybe we need to perform situational avoidance and treat symptoms, like they do with the flu and diarrheal diseases.

Of course, people are a lot more complicated than diarrhea

Wendy P.

It would help if people, and not just employers and insurers but everyone, would start recognizing mental health problems the way we do more physical problems and treatment was provided and sought out.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

Bob_Church

***They’re a cause, but not the cause. Because not all of those kids have social media accounts that take lots of abuse, and lots of kids take abuse on social media and don’t attack schools.

Until a good vaccine is developed, maybe we need to perform situational avoidance and treat symptoms, like they do with the flu and diarrheal diseases.

Of course, people are a lot more complicated than diarrhea

Wendy P.

It would help if people, and not just employers and insurers but everyone, would start recognizing mental health problems the way we do more physical problems and treatment was provided and sought out.

It would be.

The rest of the world deals with mental health issues as well, though mass shootings are rare in developed nations. Hence, hard to put too much faith in better mental healthcare preventing mass shootings.

[winsor 186]

Bob_Church

"Social media are not the cause of shootings, any more than humans are the cause of climate change. I’d say that social media are less causative than humans, but both contribut"

High School kids are committing suicide over what people post about them on Facebook. Is it really that difficult to believe that some decide to take the bullies with them?

'Mass shootings' turn out to be less of a threat than are nervous cops. Using law enforcement as an instrument of malice is an inexpensive, popular and very effective tactic.

It turns out that one is a lot more likely to fall victim to a jittery LEO than a civilian mass shooter.

Don't get me wrong, I disapprove of out of control shooters whether or not they are wearing badges. It is somewhat ironic that David Hogg, who is pursuing the most simplistic approach to so complex an issue, was as likely to come to grief at the hands of the good guys as he was by the sick bastard who shot up his school.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Bob_Church 7]

SkyDekker

******They’re a cause, but not the cause. Because not all of those kids have social media accounts that take lots of abuse, and lots of kids take abuse on social media and don’t attack schools.

Until a good vaccine is developed, maybe we need to perform situational avoidance and treat symptoms, like they do with the flu and diarrheal diseases.

Of course, people are a lot more complicated than diarrhea

Wendy P.

It would help if people, and not just employers and insurers but everyone, would start recognizing mental health problems the way we do more physical problems and treatment was provided and sought out.

It would be.

The rest of the world deals with mental health issues as well, though mass shootings are rare in developed nations. Hence, hard to put too much faith in better mental healthcare preventing mass shootings.

Well, one thing I'm resigned to and will accept and stop posting on is that we will let any amount of carnage continue before even considering a reality that might require some limitations on our access to the internet. The NRA has nothing on the smart phone industry.

[Bob_Church 7]

"Considering a large part of the rest of the world has been able to. Yeah, I am pretty sure it is possible. There is precedent. Would you suggest otherwise? "

Only if the plan includes massive cutbacks on the number of guns available in the US. There are hundreds of millions, not tens of thousands. Until then, we have to go after the reason kids are going over the edge. It's just way too easy for someone to get a gun here to see it as something that can be stopped with gun control. When the 24/7 bullying gets to be too much it's very easy to get a gun. We need to change the factor that can be changed.
I just did some checking. In 2016 there were an estimated 3.5 million guns, both legal and illegal, in Australia.

There are over 300 million in the US. And I don't think that counts illegal ones. The FBI estimates that 500,000 guns a year are stolen. Gun manufacturers make another 8 million guns per year.

Talking about keeping people from getting a gun in the US is like doing away with gravity so we don't need parachutes.

We need to take a serious look at why so many young people turn to guns now no matter how much we might not like what we learn.

If you google and find charts of school shootings per year it's very hard to ignore the rise in these types of shootings in the past few decades.