Amazon 7 #1 May 29, 2015 So just what are our rights as Americans in our Patriot Act inspired police state. Stop and identify statutes "Stop and identify" statutes are statute laws in the United States that authorize police to legally obtain the identification of someone whom they reasonably suspect has committed a crime. If the person is not reasonably suspected of committing a crime, they are not required to provide identification, even in states with stop and identify statutes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #2 May 29, 2015 NO!!! I don't have to stay on topic! You can't tell me what to do! I'm a grown ass man! And I've done nothing wrong! I'm not going to show you my ID. Fuck off!!! "There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rhaig 0 #3 May 29, 2015 TX law says you aren't required to provide ID unless you are under "legal arrest" (I think that's the wording). Yes, this applies to traffic stops. It is a crime to provide false ID (be it physical or verbal) to an officer. The Austin police chief doesn't seem to like those rules, but that's not on topic. I will certainly take corrections on the above. It's from (sleepy) memory, and I know we have more than one TX LEO in this forum.-- Rob Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Driver1 0 #4 May 29, 2015 QuoteTX law says you aren't required to provide ID unless you are under "legal arrest" (I think that's the wording). Yes, this applies to traffic stops. It is a crime to provide false ID (be it physical or verbal) to an officer. The Austin police chief doesn't seem to like those rules, but that's not on topic. I will certainly take corrections on the above. It's from (sleepy) memory, and I know we have more than one TX LEO in this forum. Only one I know of is AggieDave, who is a former LEO, but he hasn't been on here in a while.There will be no addressing the customers as "Bitches", "Morons" or "Retards"! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #5 May 29, 2015 QuoteThe Austin police chief doesn't seem to like those rules, but that's not on topic. It's directly on topic: how police choose to apply such laws in the field, and whether such laws lend themselves to official abuse and oppression. I looked up your reference to the Austin police chief, and found several articles about what you're referring to, including this one: http://www.citylab.com/crime/2014/02/yes-police-can-arrest-you-refusing-identify-yourself/8485/ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #6 May 29, 2015 Iago***So just what are our rights as Americans in our Patriot Act inspired police state. Stop and identify statutes "Stop and identify" statutes are statute laws in the United States that authorize police to legally obtain the identification of someone whom they reasonably suspect has committed a crime. If the person is not reasonably suspected of committing a crime, they are not required to provide identification, even in states with stop and identify statutes. Since 'reasonably suspect' can mean pretty much anything I'd say you're pretty much over a barrel. Historically 'do you suspect me of committing a crime or that I am about to commit a crime' has been met with clubs, cuffs, and false police reports justifying you getting beaten. Of course. Just like, for example, if a cop wants to pull over a car, he'll always, always, always cite an ostensibly lawful reason, like "the vehicle was weaving inside its lane". Yeah, right. Rookie cops who aren't used to testifying "the right way" in court yet will sometimes be sufficiently honest in their recitation of facts that the lack of reasonable suspicion will be objectively apparent. One or two times of getting burned by having their cases tossed out in court usually cures them of that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #7 May 29, 2015 rhaig ***NO!!! I don't have to stay on topic! You can't tell me what to do! I'm a grown ass man! And I've done nothing wrong! I'm not going to show you my ID. Fuck off!!! Do you have something to hide by being on topic? TX law says you aren't required to provide ID unless you are under "legal arrest" (I think that's the wording). Yes, this applies to traffic stops. It is a crime to provide false ID (be it physical or verbal) to an officer. The Austin police chief doesn't seem to like those rules, but that's not on topic. I will certainly take corrections on the above. It's from (sleepy) memory, and I know we have more than one TX LEO in this forum. It is my understanding that when operating a vehicle everywhere you are required to show ID to prove you have the legal status to operate a motor vehicle. I do believe they require you to show Insurance or instead of that a financial responsibility document where ever that is required... but just walking down the street... in most places no unless you are suspected of having ben involved in a criminal enterprise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #8 May 29, 2015 QuoteBut yes, your situation of walking down the street and being stopped (i.e. NYC Stop and Frisk) is not fine. Stop & identify statutes were upheld by a 5 to 4 decision of the Supreme Court. The 5 most conservative justices votes to uphold them, and the other 4 voted to strike them down. Of course, Justices are appointed by the President. So for those who wonder whether who the President is really makes any difference in people's daily lives, and/or are very centrist/moderate in ideology, things like this should stay in their minds when walking into the voting booth. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #9 May 29, 2015 Remember when we used to laugh at the Iron Curtain countries for requiring papers? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuDvxfqgxXA"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #10 May 29, 2015 rhaigTX law says you aren't required to provide ID unless you are under "legal arrest" (I think that's the wording). Yes, this applies to traffic stops. It is a crime to provide false ID (be it physical or verbal) to an officer. The Austin police chief doesn't seem to like those rules, but that's not on topic. I will certainly take corrections on the above. It's from (sleepy) memory, and I know we have more than one TX LEO in this forum. Do I feel like I have to always show my ID when asked? No Will I always show my ID when asked? Yes Whether we like it or not, it's never beneficial to piss off the police, no matter how big of an asshole you think the guy is. If he wants to see your ID, depending on the cop, he will eventually see it no matter what you say or do. Pick any states Penal code or Vehicle code book. Any one of them. Take a look at the size of it. I guarantee you are guilty of something. And even if you are not, there is something close that you are "suspicious" of doing that might require further investigation. Examples? Lane splitting is not illegal in California on motorcycles. That said, I've been written several tickets for "unsafe lane changes." Base jumping is not illegal in federal parks, but if you do it, you will be thrown in jail for "Illegal aerial delivery in a park" And when all else fails, there is always "resisting arrest." What the original offense was that they were arresting you for doesn't matter, you resisted. To me, police are like patent trolls. When they do shit that isn't right, you can get it corrected. All you need is a lot of time and a lot of money for a lawyer. Welcome to our justice system. Since I have neither, in the end, when I get abused by a cop, I will probably just roll over like a bitch and take it. To stand up for what is right would more than likely destroy my family. The governments endless amount of time and money compared to my limited time and resources will put me on the loosing end in the court of law pretty much every time. The only way I could ever really see myself taking on the government in a case like this would be if "Looser pays" legislation ever got passed."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #11 May 29, 2015 jgoose71 Lane splitting is not illegal in California on motorcycles. That said, I've been written several tickets for "unsafe lane changes." Then explain this: http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-motorcycle-lanesplitting-20150528-story.html"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #12 May 29, 2015 ryoder*** Lane splitting is not illegal in California on motorcycles. That said, I've been written several tickets for "unsafe lane changes." Then explain this: http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-motorcycle-lanesplitting-20150528-story.html From your own link: QuoteNeither explicitly legal nor illegal, lane-splitting has had the tacit approval of the California Highway Patrol and the Department of Motor Vehicles. There is no law stating that lane splitting is illegal. When ever I was pulled over the officer would say "it's an unsafe act and therefore illegal" and then right me a ticket for something else. I would have to look up the exact vehicle code to figure out what it was because the ticket would usually say "CVC 1140" or something to that extent. Turned out that I was being charged with "Unsafe lane changes." The one time I took it to court I won. I wasn't making lane changes, I was splitting traffic. If I hadn't taken the time to look up the vehicle code, I would have had to pay a lot more. Either way I still had to take time from work and pay court fees. At least I didn't have to go to traffic school. But that was a traffic ticket. I didn't resist or argue with the cop. If I did, who knows what else I would have been charged with. I was on a sport bike and he was already pissed off at me by my "recklessness", and by that I mean going 10 mph through traffic that was not moving. As I said, take a look a look at all the laws the police have to charge you with. You are guilty of something. Don't piss them off, just show your ID. Edited to add: the link you posted is about passing a law that would state that it is legal to get rid of any ambiguity. As I said, right now there is no law saying it is legal or illegal."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #13 May 29, 2015 ryoder*** Lane splitting is not illegal in California on motorcycles. That said, I've been written several tickets for "unsafe lane changes." Then explain this: http://www.latimes.com/business/autos/la-fi-hy-motorcycle-lanesplitting-20150528-story.html QuoteNeither explicitly legal nor illegal, Point awarded to the goose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #15 May 30, 2015 Amazon So just what are our rights as Americans in our Patriot Act inspired police state. Stop and identify statutes "Stop and identify" statutes are statute laws in the United States that authorize police to legally obtain the identification of someone whom they reasonably suspect has committed a crime. If the person is not reasonably suspected of committing a crime, they are not required to provide identification, even in states with stop and identify statutes. Back to Amazon's original post, the way most stops go are: "The person was acting strange, detain them until we can figure out something to charge them with." Especially if you piss the officer off. Whether you agree with it or not, just show your ID."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #16 May 30, 2015 Walking is another story, but a cop looking to pull a vehicle over does not have to make up a reason in America. You wait a mile or two and every driver will eventually speed, not use blinker, tailgate, text, cross divided line, not have seat belt on, etc, etc Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kawisixer01 0 #17 June 2, 2015 In WI you have no legal obligation to present identification unless you are operating a motor vehicle, as when you applied for your license you agreed to those terms. The (Conservative) AG of WI has issued multiple memos on the subject clearly indicating that police are not allowed to stop people on the street and demand ID, and have no legal standing to try and charge for obstruction when folks refuse these illegal fishing expeditions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #18 June 2, 2015 Illegal fishing for what??? Your name? Honestly who cares what your name is, and if the cops know it. If you have warrants take care of your shit, don't come up with some unreasonable argument as to why you shouldn't be asked for your name. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #19 June 2, 2015 cvfd1399Illegal fishing for what??? Your name? Honestly who cares what your name is, and if the cops know it. If you have warrants take care of your shit, don't come up with some unreasonable argument as to why you shouldn't be asked for your name. What ever happened to privacy? Why does anyone need to know your name? You make it sound like you are ok if they walk up to you and say, "Let me see your papers."I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #20 June 2, 2015 I do find it ok if I were walking down the street, and they were looking for someone with my characteristics named John Smith, and I were asked for my ID. As far as I know under the "dont ask me any questions bro" laws it would be legal for me to say no. I dont find it one bit an invasion of privacy to know my name address, and social, the government already has that info, its not like its a secret code word for some magical door in Lord of the Rings or anything. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #21 June 2, 2015 cvfd1399I do find it ok if I were walking down the street, and they were looking for someone with my characteristics named John Smith, and I were asked for my ID. As far as I know under the "dont ask me any questions bro" laws it would be legal for me to say no. I dont find it one bit an invasion of privacy to know my name address, and social, the government already has that info, its not like its a secret code word for some magical door in Lord of the Rings or anything. No, but it is a magical door to a world a lot like 1940's Germany, and Russia. Hell, I think it is still that way.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #22 June 2, 2015 QuoteNo, but it is a magical door to a world a lot like 1940's Germany, and Russia. 23 states already have mandatory identify laws, does that mean that almost half the U.S is already turned into 1940's Germany? It already exists, and isnt some massive issue, the only reason your hearing about this is the only thing in the news was the pregnant woman a cop threw down, and a dude that became an ugly woman. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #23 June 2, 2015 cvfd1399QuoteNo, but it is a magical door to a world a lot like 1940's Germany, and Russia. 23 states already have mandatory identify laws, does that mean that almost half the U.S is already turned into 1940's Germany? It already exists, and isnt some massive issue, the only reason your hearing about this is the only thing in the news was the pregnant woman a cop threw down, and a dude that became an ugly woman. I don't think you should be required to carry your papers around with you.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cvfd1399 0 #24 June 2, 2015 Quote I don't think you should be required to carry your papers around with you. "papers" really....I guess you walk or ride a bike everywhere? What about voting? GOT YOU!!!! LOL Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #25 June 2, 2015 cvfd1399 Quote I don't think you should be required to carry your papers around with you. "papers" really....I guess you walk or ride a bike everywhere? What about voting? If I'm minding my own business, what business is it of yours who the hell I am? If I'm voting, then I'd have my ID with me. If I'm driving, I'd have ID with me. These are things you are licensed to do. Last time I checked, you didn't need a license to walk. If you are at the beach, do you bring all your papers with you? 1) easily stolen 2) damage to the documents 3) possibly lost There is three good reasons, BESIDES the whole privacy thing, to not have to carry your papers.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
