Woman fails crucial test for FDNY is still passed.

[rehmwa 2]

SkyDekker

Also from the article:

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United Women Firefighters, an organization of FDNY women, objects to the FST test, contending it unfairly bars females.

We also know this:

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In the FST exam, probies must breathe through a mask attached to an air tank while carrying up to 50 pounds of gear.

They must climb six flights of stairs, stretch hose lines, raise ladders, perform tasks that simulate breaking doors and pulling down ceilings, and drag dummies through tunnels with no visibility.

They must complete the course in 17 minutes, 50 seconds or less.

I don't see anything in the test that requires fathering a child; peeing on a fire to put it out; growing a beard or mustache; or looking silly with a pot belly, bald head and goatee.

I also don't see mentruating; giving birth; producing milk from nothing; etc in the test.

I also don't see any verbage that requires something different based on gender.


so far so good

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[promise5 17]

No two tests are exactly alike. BUT there is a base standard that has to be met and either you pass it or you don't.
I'm not concerned with the objections of a union, that should encourage and demand that their members meet and pass the test instead of demanding exceptions be made due to gender.
She also demanded that they raise the age limit because she had reached it.
Her statement says it all: " I always wanted to be a firefighter" well she needs to quit thinking of herself and put others first. What the heck!!
I wouldn't want to work with her because of her attitude.

If you can't do the job the you shouldn't be doing it. Again, this is people's lives we're talking about.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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If you can't do the job the you shouldn't be doing it. Again, this is people's lives we're talking about.

Yup....agreed.

What we don't know is if the test accurately tests for ability to do the job.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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I don't see anything in the test that requires fathering a child; peeing on a fire to put it out; growing a beard or mustache; or looking silly with a pot belly, bald head and goatee.

I also don't see mentruating; giving birth; producing milk from nothing; etc in the test.

I also don't see any verbage that requires something different based on gender.


so far so good

Not quite sure what that has to do with anything. It is pretty easy to design physical tests in such a way that many women would be unable to complete them.

I have no issue at all with identical test standards for men and women, assuming the test is an accurate test for minimum standards for the job at hand.

[promise5 17]

So lower the standard because it might be set to high even though there were so many others that passed it with flying colors.
Hhhhmmmm I disagree.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

promise5

So lower the standard because it might be set to high even though there were so many others that passed it with flying colors.
Hhhhmmmm I disagree.

No set the standard where it should be to measure for minimum ability to do the job.

Then, restest on an annual basis and terminate employment for those unable to attain the minimum standard.

Now, this test being so critical, you have to show ability to pass it annually right?

[promise5 17]

Obliviously the standard isn't set to high as other wen are more then capable of passing with "flying colors".


We continually train and test.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[Andy9o8 0]

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I don't see anything in the test that requires fathering a child; peeing on a fire to put it out; growing a beard or mustache; or looking silly with a pot belly, bald head and goatee.
I also don't see mentruating; giving birth; producing milk from nothing; etc in the test.

Ah. Difference being, peeing on a fire to put it out; growing a beard or mustache; or looking silly with a pot belly, bald head and goatee are not necessarily exclusive to men.

Ya.
Your post fails.
You and your elk.

[justme12001 0]

It really is irrelevant whether or not a specific test for a specific job is an accurate test to see if one can do the job.

Once that test is the standard test, then that is the test period, end of story. If you can't pass the test you don't get the job. Once the test is standardized it should not be changed for any one specific person, race or gender.

In this particular case, there are other female NY firefighters and two that made it thru the tests in her class. So it can and has been passed by females.

Why is this particular female special? Why should she get special treatment?

Once they let this person in after not passing the standardized test, it is no longer the standard test, they have lowered the standard. Once this starts, when and were does it stop?

[Glitch 0]

Aren't you missing a point? ...WTF is wrong with setting a standard that is high enough to ensure you get the best possible caliber of applicant available (regardless of sex), instead of just 'whomever' applies? Were not talking about working at Walmart here...

Randomly f'n thingies up since before I was born...

[SkyDekker 1,150]

promise5

Obliviously the standard isn't set to high as other wen are more then capable of passing with "flying colors".


We continually train and test.

The annual medical test for NYFD includes a 5 minute step test. That's it for physical testing. There is an annual physical evaluation, yet those evaluations go pretty much nowhere and firefighters certainly don't get pulled off the job based on those.

Hard to describe a test as critical or crucial if it is a one time deal and is never tested for again during their career.

Would love to see this firefighter perform this crucial test:

http://issuehawk.com/igor/2014/09/20/firefighter-who-attacked-postal-worker-yelled-youre-nothing-but-a-fcking-ngger-is-cleared-of-hate-crime-charges.html#!

Dude is 300 pounds of solid fat.

[SkyDekker 1,150]

Glitch

Aren't you missing a point? ...WTF is wrong with setting a standard that is high enough to ensure you get the best possible caliber of applicant available (regardless of sex), instead of just 'whomever' applies? Were not talking about working at Walmart here...

Nothing, unless the test doesn't accurately reflect the ability to do the job and makes it specifically harder for women to pass.

[justme12001 0]

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No set the standard where it should be to measure for minimum ability to do the job.

Maybe the NYFD doesn't want to set the initial test at a minimum of the necessary abilities. Why is minimal ok, shouldn't the test be set at least at the average ability to do the job. Why can't a fire department expect/demand excellence?

When/if you are trapped in your burning house, do you want the fire fighters coming to rescue you to (a) be able to it at the fastest possible manner or (b) MAYBE be able to get you out in time because they are the group that barely passed the newly lowered standardized test

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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When/if you are trapped in your burning house, do you want the fire fighters coming to rescue you to (a) be able to it at the fastest possible manner or (b) MAYBE be able to get you out in time because they are the group that barely passed the newly lowered standardized test

Firefighters with NYFD never get tested again, so we have no way of knowing if the firefighters who show up could actually pass this test. Actually most Fire Departments have no physical testing for active firefighters.

[rehmwa 2]

I agree that periodic re-testing to the same standard is a good idea. Performance is expected for newbies and experienced alike.


but what do I know - I'm also a big fan of retesting for driver's licenses too....maybe at very long intervals, but it's clearly needed too.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[justme12001 0]

I'll agree with that! I doubt very few people wouldn't.

What I dont agree with is lowering standards to let the weak in, just to make them fell better about themselves. If she wants to be part of the NYFD then she should go home, train harder and earn it.

If for whatever reason she is at the top of her ability and cant pass the test, then she wasn't meant to have the job.

[AndyBoyd 0]

I don't really disagree with the argument that everyone should meet the same standard. The article seems to indicate that the testing was changed so that failing one portion of the overall test did not mean the "probie" failed the whole test. Apparently, she did really well on the academic portion of the test, which offset her failing functional skills score. Here is the reason they made the change:

"Last December, Fire Commissioner Daniel Nigro told a City Council hearing on the FDNY’s efforts to recruit women that he had changed FST requirements to lower obstacles.

“We still grade the people. You can still fail it if you go beyond the time, but you’re not automatically failed from the program,” he said.

He also indicated he wanted to act before a possible sex discrimination lawsuit after the city paid $98 million to settle a lawsuit that accused the FDNY of discriminating against minorities.

“We must no longer wait for a judge’s ruling to tell us what fairness means,” Nigro said."

It looks like the city is trying to insulate itself against a lawsuit. So blame the lawyers.

BTW, there is no way in the world I could pass that test. Sounds brutal.

[promise5 17]

It's a joke.
I have yet to run across an "academic " area in a fire. Interior or exterior.
Yes, they were afraid of a lawsuit which is a shame. The woman that failed but passed already sued once to get the age raised so she probably would sue again.

Her statement says it all " SHE always wanted to be a FF". Period, she doesn't give a crap about anyone else or anyone else's safety etc. whether she was qualified or not she was going to become one.

Thankfully I'll never work with her. I'm sorry for the lives she will put at risk.

No matter how slowly you say oranges it never sounds like gullible.
Believe me I tried.

[kallend 1,666]

"In the FST exam, probies must breathe through a mask attached to an air tank while carrying up to 50 pounds of gear.

They must climb six flights of stairs, stretch hose lines, raise ladders, perform tasks that simulate breaking doors and pulling down ceilings, and drag dummies through tunnels with no visibility.

They must complete the course in 17 minutes, 50 seconds or less."

50 pounds is an arbitrary number. Why not 57.6 or 43.17 pounds? WHat is so special about 50 pounds other than it's a nice easy number to remember? Wouldn't be so easy in kilograms.

What is so relevant about six flights of stairs? Why not 9, or 5? How long is a flight?

Who decided that 17 minutes 50 seconds is the appropriate time for completion, and how was its relevance determined?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Anvilbrother 0]

We do and I just actually did it today with my shift, I got 8:45 and had half a tank left. It's a modified CPAT with full gear and air pack. Max time 12 mins.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Anvilbrother 0]

Its all made up and is bullshit. Stick to a nationally recognized test like the CPAT or the other one for cops I forget the name.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[SkyDekker 1,150]

Anvilbrother

We do and I just actually did it today with my shift, I got 8:45 and had half a tank left. It's a modified CPAT with full gear and air pack. Max time 12 mins.

And do you lose your job if you can't pass it?

[Anvilbrother 0]

It's up in the air at this point NFPA says punitive action cannot come from physical agility tests, but we are not an NFPA state. What our chief has said so far is that you are not eligible for promotions unless you can pass the test. So far no one has failed, but I guess we will cross that bridge when we get there. I would expect a light duty position with a doctors consultation and a timeline put on them to pass like say 3 months before you terminate someone who has been there 15 years.

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[DanG 1]

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50 pounds is an arbitrary number. Why not 57.6 or 43.17 pounds? WHat is so special about 50 pounds other than it's a nice easy number to remember? Wouldn't be so easy in kilograms.

Maybe the standard gear package weighs about 50 lbs?

Quote

What is so relevant about six flights of stairs? Why not 9, or 5? How long is a flight?

Maybe above six flights they use ladders?

- Dan G

[SkyDekker 1,150]

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It's up in the air at this point NFPA says punitive action cannot come from physical agility tests

Which is exactly why I have a hard time with the label of "crucial" or "critical".

I like the stance of your chief as well as the idea of light duty postings (plus no promotions) until you can pass the test, with a limiting time frame.