Bakery faces complaint for refusing to write anti-gay message on cake

[Bolas 5]

normiss

What if they simply apply the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

Let people and private businesses choose who they do business with and then let the market decide? That's just crazy talk.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[TriGirl 276]

billvon

This argument seems to be focusing on the wrong issue. Homosexuality isn't the issue here, obscenity is.

I'm just using your post for its premise here, Bill. The example of this, without text, would be if a baker was uncomfortable making a big penis cake for a bachelorette party. Or a boobies cake for, well, anyone.

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"Cake baker refuses to put obscenity on cake" goes on page 37 right under "politician lies about fundraising."

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[jakee 1,257]

Bolas

What if the cake itself is the message?

A Swastika cake, another hate symbol, or the hateful non 4 letter words actually made out of cake..

"I'm sorry Mr Bolas, we don't make cakes shaped like swastikas. You are however welcome to buy any of the cakes we do supply."

Is that difficult to understand? If there's a problem there I honestly don't see it.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

Bolas

***What if they simply apply the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

Let people and private businesses choose who they do business with and then let the market decide? That's just crazy talk.

this - ^

(I understand and agree with this statement - though still tricky if there are no other market alternatives in the area

I'd like to contrast this to my ability to understand a position and yet not have to agree with it - apparently an impossible feat for many people to comprehend)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[jakee 1,257]

rehmwa

******What if they simply apply the "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone"?

Let people and private businesses choose who they do business with and then let the market decide? That's just crazy talk.

this - ^

(I understand and agree with this statement - though still tricky if there are no other market alternatives in the area

I'd like to contrast this to my ability to understand a position and yet not have to agree with it - apparently an impossible feat for many people to comprehend)

"I think the courts got it right - they should provide the product (cake) at a minimum without bias."

It seems your impossible abilities extend to holding two mutually contradictory opinions at the same time.

You know Rehm, it's easy to seem reasonable when you agree with everyone. The hard part is when you have to choose.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[rehmwa 2]

sure, whatever you like, Ja. I really have no idea what you are talking about. I simply agreed with Jerry that the action seemed like a plant or troll on the part of that customer to make some kind of point. everything from there is your tangent. I'll try just to not click a reply button next to your posts. It's such a waste.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[champu 1]

Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... hate-cake.....


This guy's troll-fu is seriously weak. He should have gone for a Muhammad-cartoon cake.

[BillyVance 34]

champu

Mmmmmmmmmmmm.... hate-cake.....


This guy's troll-fu is seriously weak. He should have gone for a Muhammad-cartoon cake.

Sure, why not? Add in Muhammad on his knees sucking some massive cock for emphasis...

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[billvon 2,406]

>What if the cake itself is the message?

>A Swastika cake, another hate symbol, or the hateful non 4 letter words actually made
>out of cake.

Then they can refuse to make it. Heck, the color white could offend them, and they could refuse to make wedding cakes unless they're purple. (They'd go out of business, of course, but hey - up to them.)

The one thing they cannot do (IMO) is refuse service to someone based on their gender, orientation, race or religion. Thus a refusal to make a cake with a certain message is OK - a refusal to make a cake for any gay (or black, or Jewish, or handicapped) couple is not.

[jakee 1,257]

rehmwa

sure, whatever you like, Ja. I really have no idea what you are talking about. I simply agreed with Jerry that the action seemed like a plant or troll on the part of that customer to make some kind of point. everything from there is your tangent.

What is it that you get out of being so evasive and disingenuous? Why can't you talk like a normal person and not constantly have to twist things up in order to find a way to be confrontational and condescending?

What I was talking about was very clear. First you agreed that the courts were right to rule that the bakery had to provide a service to anyone, then you agreed that the bakery should be allowed to refuse service and the let the market decide if it's a sustainable model. Neither of those things were connected to what you said to Jerry, and I wasn't replying to a post you made to Jerry, so I have no freakin idea what you thought he had to do with it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Andy9o8 0]

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It gets sticky though

I see what you did there.

[Bolas 5]

jakee

***What if the cake itself is the message?

A Swastika cake, another hate symbol, or the hateful non 4 letter words actually made out of cake..

"I'm sorry Mr Bolas, we don't make cakes shaped like swastikas. You are however welcome to buy any of the cakes we do supply."

Is that difficult to understand? If there's a problem there I honestly don't see it.

Unless the bakery does make custom cakes. Then they'd have a legitimate argument of being refused service.

Civil rights is for everyone or no one, it just doesn't work only protecting those we deem "good".

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jakee 1,257]

Bolas

******What if the cake itself is the message?

A Swastika cake, another hate symbol, or the hateful non 4 letter words actually made out of cake..

"I'm sorry Mr Bolas, we don't make cakes shaped like swastikas. You are however welcome to buy any of the cakes we do supply."

Is that difficult to understand? If there's a problem there I honestly don't see it.

Unless the bakery does make custom cakes. Then they'd have a legitimate argument of being refused service.

No they wouldn't. The bakery has to serve them, it doesn't have to endorse their speech.

Quote

Civil rights is for everyone or no one, it just doesn't work only protecting those we deem "good".

It doesn't work the way you think it does. For instance, you can refuse service to someone being an asshole to your staff and it doesn't violate the civil rights of assholes.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Bolas 5]

billvon

The one thing they cannot do (IMO) is refuse service to someone based on their gender, orientation, race or religion. Thus a refusal to make a cake with a certain message is OK - a refusal to make a cake for any gay (or black, or Jewish, or handicapped) couple is not.

Including religion is the one that throws the biggest wrench in the system.

Either side can argue just about any discrimination or refusal is protected by their religion and NOT allowing them impacts their religious rights.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

***
Unless the bakery does make custom cakes. Then they'd have a legitimate argument of being refused service.

No they wouldn't. The bakery has to serve them, it doesn't have to endorse their speech.

So a bakery could refuse a custom rainbow cake for a gay wedding?

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***Civil rights is for everyone or no one, it just doesn't work only protecting those we deem "good".

It doesn't work the way you think it does. For instance, you can refuse service to someone being an asshole to your staff and it doesn't violate the civil rights of assholes.

We're not discussing someone who was an asshole. There's nothing in the article stating that the customer became angry or upset, just they refused the compromise and escalated the issue.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,406]

>Including religion is the one that throws the biggest wrench in the system.
>Either side can argue just about any discrimination or refusal is protected by their
>religion and NOT allowing them impacts their religious rights.

Hmm. Yes, people love to argue. Still, we seem to do OK including religion in a protected class for employment, housing, governmental services access, schools etc.


Thus "we don't put obscenities on cakes" - OK.
"We don't serve Jews or gays" - not OK.
"We don't put the letter Q in any cake lettering" - OK.
"We don't put the word 'homosexual' or 'Jewish' in any cake lettering" - not OK.

[jakee 1,257]

Re. Rainbow: yeah, sounds about right to me - probably depends on what their standard offerings to other couples are though.

Re. Asshole: I know, it was an illustration of a concept.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,406]

>So a bakery could refuse a custom rainbow cake for a gay wedding?

As long as they refuse the rainbow for the 10 year old girl's birthday party too, then no problem. They can have a "we reserve the right to not do rainbows" sign in the window.

Of course, if you only refuse a service to gays, then they are going to have a problem.

[Anvilbrother 0]

"our rainbow guy wasn't in when they came in"

Postes r made from an iPad or iPhone. Spelling and gramhair mistakes guaranteed move along,

[Bolas 5]

billvon

"we don't put obscenities on cakes" - OK.

Far too vague. Obscene to whom?

A purple dragon could be seen as obscene to a purplephobic and a dragon purist.

Heaven forbid if someone wanted Muhammed on a cake, even without the giant cock.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,406]

>Far too vague. Obscene to whom?

The owner. Again, they could claim rainbows are obscene because of their religion - as long as they don't refuse only gay patrons that service.

[wolfriverjoe 1,346]

TriGirl

...As for the other bakery that refused to make a cake for a gay wedding -- they knew up front what the order was for, and chose not to take the business. If that bakery wanted to sell just the cake and let the patrons write in the names of the couple, perhaps that patron would have accepted the compromise (assuming there was writing requested on that cake). Regardless, that bakery chose not to take the job. Their loss. IIRC, someone else was happy to take the business. Problem solved.

Not exactly.

If they make wedding cakes for other couples, but refuse to make them for a gay couple (or a black couple or a Jewish couple or an Islamic couple or whatever), it's discrimination.

If they refuse to write a hateful message on a cake (no matter who the hate is directed at) it's simply refusing business.

It's the refusing service based on the group that the refused customer belongs to that makes it discrimination.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[Bolas 5]

wolfriverjoe

It's the refusing service based on the group that the refused customer belongs to that makes it discrimination.

And if religion is included, this leaves the door wide open for anything to be discrimination.

A person asks for a swastika cake. They claim (and have their religion's holy book passages to back him up) that it's a symbol of their religion.

Another person asks for a bible cake with one of the anti gay passages written on it.

This is the issue with the government dictating whom a business must work with, particularly with a non DNA group such as religion.

As stated in another thread, should the government decide that any of it's vendors must have strict anti-discrimination policies that protect ALL.

It ain't the 50s and 60s anymore folks. Let's give people, capitalism, and the free-market a chance.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[billvon 2,406]

>A person asks for a swastika cake. They claim (and have their religion's holy book
>passages to back him up) that it's a symbol of their religion.

"We don't do swastikas." - OK
"We don't serve people of your religion." - not OK

>Another person asks for a bible cake with one of the anti gay passages written on it.

"We don't do passages from books." - OK
"We don't do passages from the Bible. But the Koran is just fine." - marginal, probably not OK. (Which is what courts are for.)
"We don't serve Christians." - not OK

[Bolas 5]

billvon

>A person asks for a swastika cake. They claim (and have their religion's holy book
>passages to back him up) that it's a symbol of their religion.

"We don't do swastikas." - OK
"We don't serve people of your religion." - not OK

>Another person asks for a bible cake with one of the anti gay passages written on it.

"We don't do passages from books." - OK
"We don't do passages from the Bible. But the Koran is just fine." - marginal, probably not OK. (Which is what courts are for.)
"We don't serve Christians." - not OK

By that logic:
"We don't put two names of the same sex or multiple bride/groom figurines on cakes" - OK

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.