Washington Redskins. Needs to change their team name?

[seedy 0]

RonD1120

Now, worst of all, I am a "Right Wing Conservative Christian."

Nah, Ron, on this site, some prominent posters would call you a "conservatard", all the while chastising you for being an insensitive racist Bible thumping hypocrite.

I intend to live forever -- so far, so good.

[SkyDekker 1,141]

winsor

***?

"Your Honor, I want to change my name."

"Well, this is a very serious matter, and you had better have a very good reason before the Court will consider you request. What is your name?"

"Joe Shit."

"My goodness, we will certainly change your name! What is the name you wish?"

"Fred Shit."

Anyhow, there were some guys with whom I worked in Switzerland that ran a night spot by the name of the 'Dago Bar.' It had no negative connotations for them.

The biggest use of seemingly derogatory epithets I have witnessed has been self-identified. 'Faggot,' 'nigger,' 'spic,' 'beaner,' etc. have been bandied back and forth in my presence, to and from people that fit the description.

'Nigger,' FWIW, is simply a variant of a word meaning 'black,' but its context has made its rather benign etymology moot. Most other epithets have similarly mild origins.

As far as 'Redskins' goes, I don't even know offhand what sport is involved, and thus don't really care one way or another.


BSBD,

Winsor

The swastika was popular by early aviators as a good luck charm. Before that it has been used by many different cultures and religions.

Yet I doubt you will get a good reception walking into your synagogue with it sewn on your chest. Even if you explain you are using it as a good luck charm.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

the mascot was 'Tom-O-Hawk.'

That's offensive to the Irish.

[Andy9o8 0]

Anyhoo...

DanG

I've said it a thousand times before, and it looks like I'll have to say in a thousand more times.

There's a huge difference between team name referencing a tribe of Native Americans, and a team name that references Native Americans as a whole using a racial pejorative.

Why is this so hard to understand?

It's not, Dan. Despite those who feign not to.

[stayhigh 2]

Some sense of humor atleast.

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[wmw999 2,147]

I'm in the Black Hills of South Dakota right now. Yeah, the place where the Indians were supposed to be able to live until the water stopped flowing and the sun stopped shining. Or until gold was found, whichever came first. I'm listening to the local NPR affiliate, which is on the reservation, and very tribally-oriented.

People in power fuck over those without power. It's what happens. But good people in power don't think it's something to celebrate.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[rehmwa 2]

winsor

***Bill, you're better than that.

Whoooosh.

He nailed it, if a bit gently.

he did nail it

for that matter - "it doesn't bother me, I'm better than that. I have different rules for different races" seems like a pretty self superior attitude that perpetuates the problem. Even if the intent is the opposite.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Rick 67]

rehmwa

******Bill, you're better than that.

Whoooosh.

He nailed it, if a bit gently.

he did nail it

for that matter - "it doesn't bother me, I'm better than that. I have different rules for different races" seems like a pretty self superior attitude that perpetuates the problem. Even if the intent is the opposite.


I agree racism is racism is racism no matter if it offends you or not

no one should get a pass

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[DanG 1]

Quote

I agree racism is racism is racism no matter if it offends you or not

no one should get a pass

I agree. So why should the Redskins get a pass?

- Dan G

[Rick 67]

DanG

Quote

I agree racism is racism is racism no matter if it offends you or not

no one should get a pass

I agree. So why should the Redskins get a pass?

wrong guy I never gave them a pass

You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early!

[DanG 1]

Quote

wrong guy I never gave them a pass

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did. It was just a general question to the thread.

If we can all agree that racism is wrong, no matter who does it or what the target is, then how can anyone defend the Redskins' name?

- Dan G

[billvon 2,427]

>If we can all agree that racism is wrong, no matter who does it or what the target
>is, then how can anyone defend the Redskins' name?

Because the term Redskins (or Blackhawks, or Oklahoma, or Chiefs, or Braves, or Indians, or Chippewas, or Seminoles) is not racist. There are, of course, racist people - but the team does not support them or their actions.

[rehmwa 2]

DanG

Quote

wrong guy I never gave them a pass

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did. It was just a general question to the thread.

If we can all agree that racism is wrong, no matter who does it or what the target is, then how can anyone defend the Redskins' name?

I don't really defend it or support it. I would like to know a couple things though:

1 - When it was established, was it perjorative? Is it used now perjoratively (in the context of the team, not in general)? (How about in general? I think it could be considered so, generally.)

2 - Do the local native americans find it perjorative? or is it only entitled white activist types in the area?

3 - Where are those that opposed it, primarily, from, are they even locals to the home team?

4 - Who wins ($$$$) if the goal to change it succeeds? Does someone have something more substantial to win here other than just generalized social grief considerations?

5 - If they change it, then can that be pitched as a tacit acknowledgment that it's a perjorative? then, if so, will they then be sued like crazy for emotional damage by litigious asswipes that wouldn't care if they couldn't get $$$ from it?

I tend to be a bit cynical in these things, but if I saw an overall objection to it by multiple groups of native americans, (not just a small group of very loud activists) then I'd support their position.

perjorative stereotypes of ALL kinds are just mean and non-productive. I get even more depressed about it when I hear a group fighting for something like this then turn around and belittle the opposition in the exact same way (rednecks, etc) it's enough childish back and forth crap thank you very much and entirely hypocritical and low brow.


I like the comment about everyone having thicker skin in general to be the big winner of the thread.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[winsor 187]

SkyDekker

******?

"Your Honor, I want to change my name."

"Well, this is a very serious matter, and you had better have a very good reason before the Court will consider you request. What is your name?"

"Joe Shit."

"My goodness, we will certainly change your name! What is the name you wish?"

"Fred Shit."

Anyhow, there were some guys with whom I worked in Switzerland that ran a night spot by the name of the 'Dago Bar.' It had no negative connotations for them.

The biggest use of seemingly derogatory epithets I have witnessed has been self-identified. 'Faggot,' 'nigger,' 'spic,' 'beaner,' etc. have been bandied back and forth in my presence, to and from people that fit the description.

'Nigger,' FWIW, is simply a variant of a word meaning 'black,' but its context has made its rather benign etymology moot. Most other epithets have similarly mild origins.

As far as 'Redskins' goes, I don't even know offhand what sport is involved, and thus don't really care one way or another.


BSBD,

Winsor

The swastika was popular by early aviators as a good luck charm. Before that it has been used by many different cultures and religions.

Yet I doubt you will get a good reception walking into your synagogue with it sewn on your chest. Even if you explain you are using it as a good luck charm.

Good point.

Context matters. I still flinch when I see 'Yankee Candle,' for instance, since I have lived many years in places where 'Yankee' was the most offensive term that one could muster.

Running around Southeast Asia, one sees swastikas all over the place, and most of the Buddhist monks I encountered would be hard pressed to link it to Europe in the '30s and '40s.

My Best Man's mother was personally given a scholastic award by Hermann Goering while in the guise of a gentile in Luxembourg; she promptly burned the photograph of its presentation when it lost its usefulness as camouflage. He, however, does not bat an eye when in one of the Thai temples that has an LED swastika (he was born and raised in Bangkok).

It does strike me that the offensiveness of a moniker is largely dependent upon the perspective of the individual so described. One who is insecure and defensive is likely to be offended by any perceived slight. One who is truly self-confident will be more likely to attribute vitriol to envy and take an "eat your heart out - you should be so lucky" stance.

Context being what it is, if a group of people is coming at me with torches and pitchforks I am likely to be insecure and defensive and, regardless of how polite they may sound, take to my preferred form of self defense, which is to run away as fast as possible.


BSBD,

Winsor

[Bluhdow 31]

Everyone is too damn sensitive. Here's a bunch of other team names that we should change, and why:

1. Cowboys - What, all football players have to be BOYS?!?!?!?
2. Patriots - What, all football players are PROUD TO BE AMERICAN?!?!?!
3. Raiders - What, all pirates RAID?!?!?!?
4. Vikings - What, all players are WHITE AND BLONDE?!?!?!?
5. Saints - What, all players are CATHOLIC?!?!?!?!
6. Texans - What, all players are TEXANS?!?!?!?!
7. Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim - That's just stupid.
8. Cleveland Indians, Atlanta Braves, Washington Redskins, KC Chiefs, Chicago Blackhawks - No talking about NATIVE AMERICANS EVER!!!!
9. LA Kings - Wait, haven't many kings been know to OPPRESS AND STEAL FROM THEIR PEOPLE?!?!?!?!
10. Calgary Flames - WAIT...is this offensive to GAY PEOPLE!?!?!?!?!
11. NJ Devils - I am a Christian, therefore I AM OFFENDED!
12. Carolina Hurricanes - What, so all Carolinas have HURRICANES NOW?!?!?!?

You get the idea. Lighten up people. Words only have as much power AS YOU GIVE THEM.

Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. Especially on an internet forum.

Apex BASE
#1816

[DanG 1]

Quote

Because the term Redskins (or Blackhawks, or Oklahoma, or Chiefs, or Braves, or Indians, or Chippewas, or Seminoles) is not racist. There are, of course, racist people - but the team does not support them or their actions.

And here's the 1,001st time:

There is a huge difference between a team name which references a tribe of Native Americans, and a team name which references all Native Americans using a racist pejorative.

Please don't make me type it out for the 1,002nd time.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

Quote

Life is too short to sweat the small stuff. Especially on an internet forum.

The purpose of this forum is to discuss the issues of the day. If you don't want to discuss political issues, then this probably isn't the place for you. OTOH, I agree that people get way too worked up around here.

The rest of your post has been asked and answered repeatedly.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,427]

>There is a huge difference between a team name which references a tribe of Native
>Americans, and a team name which references all Native Americans using a racist
>pejorative.

And to me there is a huge difference between a team name that a bunch of activists think is a pejorative, and a team name that American Indians think is a pejorative.

Are you going to tell a Navajo team that they can't call themselves Redskins because it offends YOU?

=============
Tommy Yazzie, superintendent of the Red Mesa school district on the Navajo Nation reservation, grew up when Navajo children were forced into boarding schools to disconnect them from their culture. Some were punished for speaking their native language. Today, he sees environmental issues as the biggest threat to his people.

The high school football team in his district is the Red Mesa Redskins.

“We just don’t think that (name) is an issue,” Yazzie said. “There are more important things like busing our kids to school, the water settlement, the land quality, the air that surrounds us. Those are issues we can take sides on.”

“Society, they think it’s more derogatory because of the recent discussions,” Yazzie said. “In its pure form, a lot of Native American men, you go into the sweat lodge with what you’ve got — your skin. I don’t see it as derogatory.”

Neither does Eunice Davidson, a Dakota Sioux who lives on the Spirit Lake reservation in North Dakota. “It more or less shows that they approve of our history,” she said.

North Dakota was the scene of a similar controversy over the state university’s Fighting Sioux nickname. It was decisively scrapped in a 2012 statewide vote — after the Spirit Lake reservation voted in 2010 to keep it.

Davidson said that if she could speak to Dan Snyder, the Washington team owner who has vowed never to change the name, “I would say I stand with him . we don’t want our history to be forgotten.”

In 2004, the National Annenberg Election Survey asked 768 people who identified themselves as Indian whether they found the name “Washington Redskins” offensive. Almost 90 percent said it did not bother them.
http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/10/08/how-many-native-americans-think-redskins-is-a-slur/
=============

[billvon 2,427]

>Things would be a lot calmer, quieter, and smoother if people just grew some thicker skin.

Agreed. There almost seem to be a small group of "professional offendees" out there who have honed the art of being offended by . . . almost anything. (Which is their right, I suppose.) Perhaps they are there are a counterbalance to the people who think nothing is offensive.

[DanG 1]

Snaky reply:

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Native+Americans+against+Washington+Redskins+name

Not snarky reply:

The root of the word appears unclear. Like many slang terms, you can find a derivation that fits your desires quire easily. The root of nigger is pretty clear, but everyone seems to have a story about where Redskins came from. Some appear, to me at least, unbelievable. One claim is that it refers to the blood on the Native Americans skin when they were killed for bounty. I think that's silly. I also think it's silly to believe that it refers only to ceremonial war paint. The plain reading is that it literally refers to the skin color of Native Americans, which is rather redder than the average European.

As for who finds it offensive, the biggest pusher from Native America tribes is the Oneida Nation from upstate New York. Surveys of Native Americans imply that many don't find the term offensive, but some have criticized the surveys for not controlling the actual racial makeup of the respondents. Either way, there are a lot more people than local white activists that don't like the name. I'm local and white, but I'm not an activist, although I have been avoiding buying Redskins merch until they change the name.

I'm not sure anyone will make money off the change. That's an angle I've never heard discussed.

As far as suing for emotional damage, what's more likely, suing after the team changes the name in good faith, or suing because the team refuses to change the name with a big fat fuck you?

I don't think it really matters how many Native Americans find the term offensive, or if they are local. An unbiased observer should realize that the term is, on its face (pun!) racially motivated. That makes it wrong, and it should be changed.

I'd like to see them change the name to the Washington Warriors, and keep the logo. I would not be offended by that, and maybe it'll help us win a few games.

- Dan G

[DanG 1]

Quote

And to me there is a huge difference between a team name that a bunch of activists think is a pejorative, and a team name that American Indians think is a pejorative.

Some Native Americans find it pejorative, and some don't. It's disingenuous to imply that only crazy white activists are offended.

Quote

Are you going to tell a Navajo team that they can't call themselves Redskins because it offends YOU?

No, and I'm not going to tell Jay-Z that he can't say nigger in his songs. On the other hand, I'd be quite offended if some white country singer threw out a n-bomb in every other line.

Last I checked, there aren't any Native Americans on the Redskins' roster.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,427]

>Some Native Americans find it pejorative, and some don't.

The vast majority do not.

When it comes to whether a specific racial name is pejorative or not, I tend to go with the vast majority of the people in that race over the opinions of others.

>It's disingenuous to imply that only crazy white activists are offended.

Again, the vast majority of people who are offended are non-Native-American activists. I didn't claim they were all white or crazy.

>Last I checked, there aren't any Native Americans on the Redskins' roster.

That's a strange standard. So the name was OK when the team was being coached by Lone Star Dietz, but not today? Would it go back to being OK by adding one Native American? How about if they licensed the name from the Navajo high school that uses it?

And we haven't even gotten to the word Oklahoma yet. How is "red people" not offensive if "redskins" is?

[normiss 622]

I'm still confused over their use of a black man as the mascot though.

[DanG 1]

Quote

The vast majority do not.

When it comes to whether a specific racial name is pejorative or not, I tend to go with the vast majority of the people in that race over the opinions of others.

The vast majority comes from a single survey of people who self-identified as Native American. Hardly scientific.

Quote

That's a strange standard. So the name was OK when the team was being coached by Lone Star Dietz, but not today? Would it go back to being OK by adding one Native American? How about if they licensed the name from the Navajo high school that uses it?

I don't think it's a strange standard at all. Actual Native American teams, composed on actual Native Americans, can call themselves Redskins if they want. It can be empowering. White people don't have the right to call non-white people niggers, spics, slopes, or redskins. Sorry, that's just the way it is. Similarly, non-white people don't have the right to call white people cracker or honkey.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

DanG

So why should the Redskins get a pass?

Are you kidding? Have you seen their running game?