vdschoor 0
Recommended Posts
Again I started this thread based on posts made in another thread, the text you quoted wasn't mine.
Personally down in Elsinore (I havent jumped in Perris for ages) I land out by the pond, less traffic to negotiate with, and everyone lands in the same direction pretty much..
Personally down in Elsinore (I havent jumped in Perris for ages) I land out by the pond, less traffic to negotiate with, and everyone lands in the same direction pretty much..
Yeah I just caught that you had relayed a part of a different thread as your poll, and the quotes are not yours. I don't happen to see a lot of swoop proximity dangers. Most swoopers either burn it down pretty quick or hang in brakes until later so there tends to be a gap for general pattern landers.....or they mostly hop and pop. I do see separation lazyness but not from just one facet of canopy pilot.
vdschoor 0
Quote
Most swoopers either burn it down pretty quick or hang in brakes until later so there tends to be a gap for general pattern landers.....or they mostly hop and pop. I do see separation lazyness but not from just one facet of canopy pilot.
That's what I do, most of the time I am out really late anyways because i'm in one of the last groups or filming a tandem. If I am first out, I spiral down and try to avoid traffic that way.
dorbie 0
Well if you do land in the same area, or even if you don't, don't do this:
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=ahvj0
http://www.skydivingmovies.com/ver2/pafiledb.php?action=guestpass&id=ahvj0
QuoteI think with all things good judgment has to come into play.
Good judgment is like "common sense". It is not all that common anymore.
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
QuoteGood judgment is like "common sense". It is not all that common anymore.
Boy, Sparky! You certainly hit THAT one on the head!
Common sense seems like a lost art...kinda like spotting, eh?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
PhreeZone 15
The issue is beyond just swoopers landing in the landing area, its the whole skydiving communities preception of flying a pattern that is screwed up. I can not count how many times I've seen people suddenly decide at 300 feet they want to land somewhere and make a big turn to go across the DZ and land there with out ever looking over a sholder to see whats behind them. People landing down wind to make it back instead of flying a pattern and landing off, but in the right direction. My favorite is the people that spiral down then hang in deep breaks at 700-1000 feet while picking that 10 foot spot that they are wanting to land in half way across the DZ.
Seperate landing area's are great, but even then you have the issue of people fighting with 90's vs 180's vs 270's in that area. The solution to it is what the Pros have worked out is declaring the landing order and sticking to it. Varying the deployment height in comp is an easy way to do it, but on normal jumps with swoopers being out all across the board this is still an issue that only communication can address.
Swoopers do not need to swoop on every jump, but on the same token its every jumpers responcibality to be predictable and consistant under canopy. Everyone needs to communicate about landing direction and order, as well as discussing play areas and where/what patterns are. When communication breaks down either due to the delivery or due to the jumper not listening then problems in the pattern occur and you get people invading other peoples airspace and that leads to collisions.
Seperate landing area's are great, but even then you have the issue of people fighting with 90's vs 180's vs 270's in that area. The solution to it is what the Pros have worked out is declaring the landing order and sticking to it. Varying the deployment height in comp is an easy way to do it, but on normal jumps with swoopers being out all across the board this is still an issue that only communication can address.
Swoopers do not need to swoop on every jump, but on the same token its every jumpers responcibality to be predictable and consistant under canopy. Everyone needs to communicate about landing direction and order, as well as discussing play areas and where/what patterns are. When communication breaks down either due to the delivery or due to the jumper not listening then problems in the pattern occur and you get people invading other peoples airspace and that leads to collisions.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
QuoteThe issue is beyond just swoopers landing in the landing area, its the whole skydiving communities preception of flying a pattern that is screwed up.
Amen. 99% of the time the 'bad behavior'/patterns/inconsideration I see isn't from swoopers. It's from instructors or experienced skydivers.
Sad but true.
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
tbrown 26
Like almost everything else, it depends on whether it can be done responsibly. In heavy traffic, probably not. In lighter traffic, with a good look around at the traffic below, sure, why not ?
Not ever into a "student" area, you're the last thing in the world they're expecting. I like the idea of designated swoop areas, but don't think swoopers have to be limited to them if they're careful. Problem with that is there's always some a-hole who doesn't look, doesn't care, and wants to open a can of whupass on anyone who "gets in his way" (I have yet to meet a woman who acts like this). It only takes one of them to make a new rule for all the rest.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
Not ever into a "student" area, you're the last thing in the world they're expecting. I like the idea of designated swoop areas, but don't think swoopers have to be limited to them if they're careful. Problem with that is there's always some a-hole who doesn't look, doesn't care, and wants to open a can of whupass on anyone who "gets in his way" (I have yet to meet a woman who acts like this). It only takes one of them to make a new rule for all the rest.
Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !
Quote...Amen. 99% of the time the 'bad behavior'/patterns/inconsideration I see isn't from swoopers. It's from instructors or experienced skydivers.
Sad but true.
This is interesting in that different types of flyers see things in a totally different manner.
Here's a swooper that sees other groups as the problem while I, as a non-swooper, see the swoopers causing most of the conflict.
Interesting.
I do exclude the less-experienced and the newbies from my observations (note: NOT from the behavior, BTW). I mostly see the experienced non-swoopers abiding by landing patterns while the swoopers are likely to come in from any direction on any given load. And I've seen this at nearly every DZ I've been to.
Different groups, different perspectives....Hmmmmm...there's an underlying cause of that somewhere.
As a side note, I also wonder how canopy collision, or close call, combinations break down with respect to:
-newbie - newbie
-non swooper - non swooper
-swooper - swooper
-non swooper - swooper
I believe only strong-willed DZOs can prevent much of this by making and enforcing landing rules. Rules CAN be set up to accomodate everyone and to maintain landing fun and safety.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Don't get me wrong, 'swoopers' are guilty of infractions too.
However, one only needs to go a watch a few 'big ways' land to see just how bad the patterns are. I also include LEVELS as part of poor patterns btw. 99% of the time levels are the biggest cause of conflicting traffic issues.
I think MY disconnect comes in as who I consider a swooper and who I don't. I know of more than a few people that just huck a toggle/riser down that I don't consider swoopers....that's my own issue I realize but I guess I don't have much respect for their inconsideration which is why I won't lump them in with the group that I associate myself with
IMO any 'swooper' worth their salt will follow a good pattern, have good levels and fly considerately in traffic. The people we're talking about are hazards....nothing more no matter whether they're turning or not.
Unfortunately it has been my experience that a large portion of the time they're instructors
I've seen 3 really, really close calls the last year. Each one has involved 1x instructor (in one case an S&TA) doing an approach without consideration to the set landing direction AND someone doing what they were supposed to be doing (landing direction).
I've managed to avoid a fair amount more by flying proactively, picking out 'the usual suspects' and just avoiding them altogether. Another reason I do hop n pops now. Everytime I go to altitude I just shake my head in disappointment on how people just spiral around aimlessly. Only to hold in brakes at 1000 ft and stack everyone else up behind them.
I agree 100%. I wish dzo's or good S&TA's would be more aggressive in this area. I know in one case a dzo actually said to me that they couldn't do anything more about it because they'd have no staff jumping because the staff members were the ones causing all the issues.![[:/]](/uploads/emoticons/dry.png "[:/]")
For now...I'll just stick to the pond
Blues,
Ian
However, one only needs to go a watch a few 'big ways' land to see just how bad the patterns are. I also include LEVELS as part of poor patterns btw. 99% of the time levels are the biggest cause of conflicting traffic issues.
I think MY disconnect comes in as who I consider a swooper and who I don't. I know of more than a few people that just huck a toggle/riser down that I don't consider swoopers....that's my own issue I realize but I guess I don't have much respect for their inconsideration which is why I won't lump them in with the group that I associate myself with
IMO any 'swooper' worth their salt will follow a good pattern, have good levels and fly considerately in traffic. The people we're talking about are hazards....nothing more no matter whether they're turning or not.
Unfortunately it has been my experience that a large portion of the time they're instructors
I've seen 3 really, really close calls the last year. Each one has involved 1x instructor (in one case an S&TA) doing an approach without consideration to the set landing direction AND someone doing what they were supposed to be doing (landing direction).
I've managed to avoid a fair amount more by flying proactively, picking out 'the usual suspects' and just avoiding them altogether. Another reason I do hop n pops now. Everytime I go to altitude I just shake my head in disappointment on how people just spiral around aimlessly. Only to hold in brakes at 1000 ft and stack everyone else up behind them.
QuoteI believe only strong-willed DZOs can prevent much of this by making and enforcing landing rules. Rules CAN be set up to accomodate everyone and to maintain landing fun and safety.
I agree 100%. I wish dzo's or good S&TA's would be more aggressive in this area. I know in one case a dzo actually said to me that they couldn't do anything more about it because they'd have no staff jumping because the staff members were the ones causing all the issues.
For now...I'll just stick to the pond
Blues,
Ian
To the mind that is still, the whole universe surrenders. ~ Lao-Tzu
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
It's all good, they're my brothers ~ Mariann Kramer
NWFlyer 2
Quoteand like the scoolding they get on the PA does any good.
I'm not going to get into the debate of who causes more problems - true swoopers, wannabe swoopers, instructors, newbies, experienced non-swoopers, etc.
My issue is that every time I hear bitching about people pulling stupid stunts at WFFC or boogies, people say "That kind of shit would get you grounded at your home DZ." I'm still relatively new to the sport, but I've been to a decent number of DZs, and seen/heard about lots of stupid shit and yet I have only seen/heard about a couple of groundings or bannings from a DZ (and those that I'm familiar with are more about off-hours behavior or personality conflicts with the DZO than the are about safety violations.)
So I'll ask the question - are there S&TAs or DZOs out there who *are* actually grounding people who consistently cause problems? Or is it all a lot of talking and hand-wringing and no actual action?
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke
billvon 2,407
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>However, one only needs to go a watch a few 'big ways' land to see just how bad the patterns are.
Oddly, the bigger they are, the less problems there are. There were very few traffic problems on the 400-way, perhaps because the jumpers on that dive were better at taking direction than your 'typical' skydiver. So I think it has more to do with the people than the number of jumpers in the air.
>I think MY disconnect comes in as who I consider a swooper and who I don't.
I don't think that's an issue. It doesn't matter who they are; what matters is what they do. I don't think that people should be doing turns greater than 90 degrees in a pattern when there are other jumpers using the same landing area.
Oddly, the bigger they are, the less problems there are. There were very few traffic problems on the 400-way, perhaps because the jumpers on that dive were better at taking direction than your 'typical' skydiver. So I think it has more to do with the people than the number of jumpers in the air.
>I think MY disconnect comes in as who I consider a swooper and who I don't.
I don't think that's an issue. It doesn't matter who they are; what matters is what they do. I don't think that people should be doing turns greater than 90 degrees in a pattern when there are other jumpers using the same landing area.
QuoteThe issue is beyond just swoopers landing in the landing area, its the whole skydiving communities preception of flying a pattern that is screwed up. I can not count how many times I've seen people suddenly decide at 300 feet they want to land somewhere and make a big turn to go across the DZ and land there with out ever looking over a sholder to see whats behind them. People landing down wind to make it back instead of flying a pattern and landing off, but in the right direction. My favorite is the people that spiral down then hang in deep breaks at 700-1000 feet while picking that 10 foot spot that they are wanting to land in half way across the DZ.
Determining your landing pattern should begin in the loading area before you step onto the aircraft, but definitely before you exit the plane. I always look at the following:
1) Who are the "factors" on the load, who spirals down, s-turns on final or swoops. Also visitors to the dz are factors.
2) Are there instructors/video flyers on the load?
3) How many groups are there?
4) What types of groups are they and how big are they?
5) Jump run: what are the uppers and which way is jump run oriented w.r.t. the landing pattern?
6) Any high performance canopies (high performance = higher performance than mine). Take a look at the size of people's rigs if you don't know them well, or ask them what they are jumping.
7)What do the landing areas look like/where are people going to land (swoop vs. main or student area).
Items 1 & 2 addresses the probable behavior of the pilot. Instructors/video flyers are often coming back from long spots and/or trying to get down fast enough so that they have enough time to do their thing on the ground.
BTW, if you don't see any "factors" on the load, you are the factor for the load.
Items 3, 4 & 5 give an idea of how dense the landing pattern will be, both due to the spread in groups (for small groups vs. a large group) and also the possibility of multiple passes.
Item 6 considers the different glide ratios of canopies and not only how they fly in the pattern but thru the pattern.
Where to land (item 7) is determined by the previous 6 factors.
No skydive should ever be a "surprise", unfortunately they often are because nothing ever goes as planned or predicted. It's also very difficult to really understand the landing pattern for a dz if you are new to the dz: I have found that each dz has a unique balance of these 7 items to take into consideration. I also think this is why people view boogies as "sketchy". as there is a huge influx of new people all applying their home dz landing pattern to a completely different situation without understanding and respecting the additional hazards posed by massive numbers of skydivers unfamiliar with the boogie dz.
While it would be nice for everyone to fly similar canopies and similar patterns, this is unrealistic, for reasons that may not be clear to us while we are trying to land amongst others. Ultimately the predictability of a situation depends on the observer's understanding of the situation.
edited to correct typo.
Gotta go... plaything needs to spank me
Feel the hate...
Photos here
QuoteDon't get me wrong, 'swoopers' are guilty of infractions too.
And you know, Ian, that I am NOT excusing any other discipline from these behaviors, right?
QuoteIMO any 'swooper' worth their salt will follow a good pattern, have good levels and fly considerately in traffic. The people we're talking about are hazards....nothing more no matter whether they're turning or not.
And know that I agree with you 100% and say that this applies to ALL disciplines....
You be da' Man, Ian.
Oh...side note...not blowing smoke up your ass but You and Lady K are NOT ones I worry about. FWIW, as an old-fart to a younger man, you have my respect.
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
Deuce 1
I think I had a post in this that got deleted in the other forum.
Where is the high performance landing area, where do they set up, and where else can I land.
Generally, high performance landings require extreme attention to altitude and placement over the swoop target.
I, as traffic, end up less important than that. Hardcore swoopers are exceptionally hedonistic about their set ups and swoops and get astoundingly pissed when they have to abort due to a less attentive lander, or just some egotistical bastard who cuts them off.
I try to avoid it. I'd like to have every dropzone have a separate area for HP landings, and even a separate waiver for the additional risks they accumulate by choosing to participate in *70's to final.
Where is the high performance landing area, where do they set up, and where else can I land.
Generally, high performance landings require extreme attention to altitude and placement over the swoop target.
I, as traffic, end up less important than that. Hardcore swoopers are exceptionally hedonistic about their set ups and swoops and get astoundingly pissed when they have to abort due to a less attentive lander, or just some egotistical bastard who cuts them off.
I try to avoid it. I'd like to have every dropzone have a separate area for HP landings, and even a separate waiver for the additional risks they accumulate by choosing to participate in *70's to final.
PhreeZone 15
A seperate landing area does not change the fact that you still have people that seem content to remain clueless and have no clue as to what a pattern is.I could show up to almost any DZ in the US and within 3 loads I bet I'd see at least 1 person having to do S turns on final or not landing in the declared wind direction on a low wind day. Neither of these activities would be premitted if we were airplanes. This behaivor is tolerated across the nation and no one says anything about it.
Sit into a Scott Miller canopy course and see what a pattern should look like and then see how many people really fly one. The numbers that do are so low its not funny. And new jumpers are seeing the experienced jumpers doing it and they follow along.
I'm as guilty as the next person in doing a 180 in the landing area, but I also fly a normal pattern too since I can tell that conditions are not right for it at certian times.
Sit into a Scott Miller canopy course and see what a pattern should look like and then see how many people really fly one. The numbers that do are so low its not funny. And new jumpers are seeing the experienced jumpers doing it and they follow along.
I'm as guilty as the next person in doing a 180 in the landing area, but I also fly a normal pattern too since I can tell that conditions are not right for it at certian times.
Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
And tomorrow is a mystery
Parachutemanuals.com
You hit the nail on the head right here, I have issues with people willing to take risks when it comes to proximity comfort. And I think that's exactly where the issue is with swooping in the main landing area.
"I think I can swoop right in there if he doesnt change his direction" is the WRONG mindset.. the lower man ALWAYS has the right of way, even if he is not flying a clear pattern.. land safely and go talk to this person in a respectful manner and TEACH him how to make it clear to people above him what he's about to do instead of going over there and yelling "you cut me off"
Just because the swooper feels comfortable swooping 10ft next to someone else coming in, doing this might freak the non-swooper out and this can cause issues.. the "non-swooper" all of a sudden changing his pattern / direction at a low altitude.. things like that will become huge issues when canopies are too close.
Again I started this thread based on posts made in another thread, the text you quoted wasn't mine.
Personally down in Elsinore (I havent jumped in Perris for ages) I land out by the pond, less traffic to negotiate with, and everyone lands in the same direction pretty much..
Share this post
Link to post
Share on other sites