Cliven Bundy Syndrome

[masterrig 1]

cloud9

http://sutherlandinstitute.org/news/2013/07/17/feds-broke-a-promise-to-utah-on-land-ownership/

Good to know. The BLM is a crock of crap!!


Chuck

[cloud9 0]

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Bridge Day is in a national park?

Good question, I don't know if the bridge is owned by West Virginia or the federal government. But I do know a bureaucrat decides when where and if you can jump. If you jump on the wrong day you're a criminal.

[quade 3]

cloud9

But I do know a bureaucrat decides when where and if you can jump.

Do you believe that most laws are written to keep individuals from doing what they want OR do you believe that most laws are written to protect innocent members of society from the harm that could be done by others (both physical and financial)?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

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Do you believe that most laws are written to keep individuals from doing what they want OR do you believe that most laws are written to protect innocent members of society from the harm that could be done by others (both physical and financial)?

Criminal or Civil?
Overall most laws are written to appease a special interest group or to gain revenue for our different levels of government.

[quade 3]

cloud9

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Do you believe that most laws are written to keep individuals from doing what they want OR do you believe that most laws are written to protect innocent members of society from the harm that could be done by others (both physical and financial)?

Criminal or Civil?
Overall most laws are written to appease a special interest group or to gain revenue for our different levels of government.

Nonsense. Utter nonsense.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

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Nonsense. Utter nonsense

I could easily prove my point but at this time you are so closed minded that it probably wouldn't make a difference. But I'll give an example anyway. There are over 3000 federal criminal laws that encompass over 50 titles and over 23,000 pages. Think about that, you are expected to obey everyone of them and ignorance is not a valid excuse.
The very topic of this thread why did they after 100 years of free grazing decide that people should start paying?

[quade 3]

So, let me get this straight. You believe the primary function of a stop sign at an intersection is to raise funds for the local government?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

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So, let me get this straight. You believe the primary function of a stop sign at an intersection is to raise funds for the local government?

In you won't interact in earnest this is truly futile

[quade 3]

cloud9

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So, let me get this straight. You believe the primary function of a stop sign at an intersection is to raise funds for the local government?

In you won't interact in earnest this is truly futile

Pal, I tried to communicate 100% honestly and fairly with you and this is what I got in return.

Quote

I could easily prove my point but at this time you are so closed minded that it probably wouldn't make a difference.

Now, precisely what part of the question was "close minded" or deserved a response like that?

No, sir. Your reply to me is complete and utter bullshit. If you believe you can "prove" that "overall most laws are written to appease a special interest group or to gain revenue for our different levels of government," then by all means do so, but don't give me any of your bullshit and then say I'm the one not interacting in earnest.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[cloud9 0]

Title 26 of the US Code of Federal Regulations (that's the part written by the IRS) is 20 volumes and over 13,000 pages. Do you think that was written to keep people from hurting each other? Oh when you add what congress wrote in Title 26 it's over 16,000 pages.

[quade 3]

And so you believe the only laws in the US are composed of one or two sections of it?

Kind of circular reasoning there, buddy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[masterrig 1]

cloud9

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Bridge Day is in a national park?

Good question, I don't know if the bridge is owned by West Virginia or the federal government. But I do know a bureaucrat decides when where and if you can jump. If you jump on the wrong day you're a criminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_River_Gorge_Bridge


Chuck

[cloud9 0]

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So, let me get this straight. You believe the primary function of a stop sign at an intersection is to raise funds for the local government?

This was an insult, you are an intelligent person so I believe it was intended to be. Of course stop signs are there to help prevent accidents. However most laws are not criminal laws and even most criminal laws are not there to protect you. Yes there are certainly laws that are designed to do that but not most. I was a law enforcement officer for 11 years and believe that many criminal laws are there to protect the citizens and are necessary, I'm certainly not against all laws.

[rushmc 18]

cloud9

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So, let me get this straight. You believe the primary function of a stop sign at an intersection is to raise funds for the local government?

This was an insult, you are an intelligent person so I believe it was intended to be. Of course stop signs are there to help prevent accidents. However most laws are not criminal laws and even most criminal laws are not there to protect you. Yes there are certainly laws that are designed to do that but not most. I was a law enforcement officer for 11 years and believe that many criminal laws are there to protect the citizens and are necessary, I'm certainly not against all laws.

You need to realize he is selective in his outrage
Obama has broken laws re-writing the ACA over 25 times (at least)
He does not care about that as he agrees it needs to be done


He is outraged that Bundy is breaking laws because he agrees with the BLM and big government controls

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[cloud9 0]

Going back to Bundy my beliefs and the beliefs of many are fairly simple.
The government allowed free grazing or free range for over 100 years. Then they out of nowhere started charging to graze cattle. Keeping in mind this is desert land useless for much else. Then some special interest groups decided that the poor little desert tortoise shouldn't have to graze with cows and the feds demanded protection for the poor little tortoise. Nothing about this law has anything to do with protecting people from anything.

[kallend 1,634]

cloud9

Going back to Bundy my beliefs and the beliefs of many are fairly simple.
The government allowed free grazing or free range for over 100 years. Then they out of nowhere started charging to graze cattle. Keeping in mind this is desert land useless for much else. Then some special interest groups decided that the poor little desert tortoise shouldn't have to graze with cows and the feds demanded protection for the poor little tortoise. Nothing about this law has anything to do with protecting people from anything.

Since the grazing land belongs to ALL the people, but only a tiny fraction gets to exploit it for their own profit, it seems reasonable to me that the exploiters should pay a use fee to the rest of the owners.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[cloud9 0]

Administrative law is the body of rules and regulations created by executive agencies and regulatory bodies (such as the EPA, OSHA, FCC, FTC, etc.). Administrative law has legal force only because of enabling statutes passed by the legislature. For instance, the EPA derives its authority to create laws regarding the environment from the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and several other acts of Congress.
The significance of administrative law should not be underestimated: In a typical year, Congress passes around 300 laws, while administrative agencies write approximately 10,000 regulations. These laws, when violated, are adjudicated in special administrative courts that are separate from the usual legal system.

You see bureaucrats are enacting laws without the consent of the people and without recourse for the people. Congress is supposed to enact laws not an FCC bureaucrat.

[rushmc 18]

cloud9

Administrative law is the body of rules and regulations created by executive agencies and regulatory bodies (such as the EPA, OSHA, FCC, FTC, etc.). Administrative law has legal force only because of enabling statutes passed by the legislature. For instance, the EPA derives its authority to create laws regarding the environment from the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and several other acts of Congress.
The significance of administrative law should not be underestimated: In a typical year, Congress passes around 300 laws, while administrative agencies write approximately 10,000 regulations. These laws, when violated, are adjudicated in special administrative courts that are separate from the usual legal system.

You see bureaucrats are enacting laws without the consent of the people and without recourse for the people. Congress is supposed to enact laws not an FCC bureaucrat.

+1

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[cloud9 0]

Quote

Since the grazing land belongs to ALL the people, but only a tiny fraction gets to exploit it for their own profit, it seems reasonable to me that the exploiters should pay a use fee to the rest of the owners.

On the surface this seems fair enough but look at the whole picture. Over 53 ranchers used this land for over 100 years. It was land no one else wanted, these ranchers carved a living out of this as well as their own land. Then they were given permits and charged, then the permits were slowly taken away. Limiting the amount of cattle they could have on the land. So they were in effect put out of business so the land could be turned over to the desert tortoise. This wasn't done by a vote of the people but by BLM bureaucrats that decided that's what they wanted to do. There in lies the problem, it's now a law. No agency is supposed to have that kind of power nor should they.

[kelpdiver 2]

cloud9

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Since the grazing land belongs to ALL the people, but only a tiny fraction gets to exploit it for their own profit, it seems reasonable to me that the exploiters should pay a use fee to the rest of the owners.

On the surface this seems fair enough but look at the whole picture. Over 53 ranchers used this land for over 100 years.

However, the Bundys were not among these 53 - this has already been established as a false narrative.

[kelpdiver 2]

quade

***But I do know a bureaucrat decides when where and if you can jump.

Do you believe that most laws are written to keep individuals from doing what they want OR do you believe that most laws are written to protect innocent members of society from the harm that could be done by others (both physical and financial)?

If there were more than a few thousand base jumpers across the country, then jumping would be legal in the parks. Cloud argues that special interests influence rule making and I can't see how you can dispute that - look at the laws around the ski industry as an example. Millions of skiers and billions of dollars annually means problems get looked at and addressed legislatively.

Jumping is no more impactful than climbing, which exists throughout the park system. And in contrast to Yosemite '80 we have years of Bridge Day (as well as Twin Falls) to show that the sport can be managed. But without a mass of people or dollars, it's difficult to get anyone to care enough to change the status quo, which was law passed to solve a different problem.

I recall reading ~10 years ago there was at least one official that seem amenable to changing it up, but I'm guessing he didn't last.

[turtlespeed 212]

billvon

>More completely, it's illegal because 50 years ago they were concerned with
>squatters resupplying via air drops, and now you have bureaucrats who don't like
>base jumping and have no interest in updating the law.

Well, no. It used to be legal around 1980. Then BASE jumpers trashed the place and so they shut it down.

Couldn't get the blood stains out?

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[cloud9 0]

This was never about Bundy it's about the overreach of the government bureaucrats. We had the BLM telling citizens they couldn't use the peoples land. We had cows grazing on land COWS the BLM came in with 200 armed officers started pushing people around and flexing the might of the government. Because cows were eating grass and the BLM wanted turtles to have it. The government pays farmers to plow under wheat, they pay corn farmers to grow corn for our gas tanks, they pay peanut farmers not to plant peanuts. Then they show up guns up because cows are eating grass in Nevada. The government paid a price for this idiocy and will continue to pay a price if they don't wise up. Give the land back to Nevada and leave the people alone.

[champu 1]

quade

Now, precisely what part of the question was "close minded" or deserved a response like that?

Your initial question to him...

quade

Do you believe that most laws are written to keep individuals from doing what they want OR do you believe that most laws are written to protect innocent members of society from the harm that could be done by others (both physical and financial)?

...was close minded because it was a false dichotomy. Laws get written for reasons all over the spectrum between altruism and malfeasance. Once on the books they get enforced in different ways over the same spectrum. Personally, I believe that most laws are initially dreamed up with good intentions but what happens between then and an enforcement action leaves room for all sorts of possibilties, you don't really have a choice for that viewpoint.

Also, he then stated this opinion...

cloud9

Overall most laws are written to appease a special interest group or to gain revenue for our different levels of government.

Which is technically correct (the best kind of correct.) Most laws are there because either a special interest group (big or small) asked for them, or the government wrote them of their own accord to be able to collect money. Laws written for these purposes can, again, be anywhere on that scale of good to bad.

You replied with this...

quade

So, let me get this straight. You believe the primary function of a stop sign at an intersection is to raise funds for the local government?

Which is misrepresenting his statement, ignoring the special interest group part of his comment. The primary function of a stop sign is to exist because someone asked for it to be there. It could be just a dangerous intersection without one (good thing someone asked in that case!) It could be because the person who's house its in front of felt that people went too fast and he doesn't like those damn kids who go too fast (okay, he might have a point.) It could also just be one of many stop signs the people in the neighborhood put up with the intention of making their street a pain in the ass to pass through, thereby making traffic a nightmare for others and/or just dumping it on someone else's street. (classic NIMBY crap where the loudest person wins.)

[kallend 1,634]

cloud9

Administrative law is the body of rules and regulations created by executive agencies and regulatory bodies (such as the EPA, OSHA, FCC, FTC, etc.). Administrative law has legal force only because of enabling statutes passed by the legislature. For instance, the EPA derives its authority to create laws regarding the environment from the Clean Air Act, Clean Water Act, and several other acts of Congress.
The significance of administrative law should not be underestimated: In a typical year, Congress passes around 300 laws, while administrative agencies write approximately 10,000 regulations. These laws, when violated, are adjudicated in special administrative courts that are separate from the usual legal system.

You see bureaucrats are enacting laws without the consent of the people and without recourse for the people. Congress is supposed to enact laws not an FCC bureaucrat.

Did you pass civics in school?

Congress passes laws that empower the various agencies to make regulations. Do you REALLY think Congress passed every one of the Federal Aviation Regulations (to give just one example)?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.