Voter issues? Nah, they dont exist do they......

[rushmc 18]

Quote

N.C. State Board Finds More than 35K Incidents of ‘Double Voting’ in 2012

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/374882/nc-state-board-finds-more-35k-incidents-double-voting-2012-andrew-johnson

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

rushmc

Quote

N.C. State Board Finds More than 35K Incidents of ‘Double Voting’ in 2012

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/374882/nc-state-board-finds-more-35k-incidents-double-voting-2012-andrew-johnson

You should probably read the original source material because somewhere along the way the headline you quoted has become wildly misleading.

http://www.wral.com/asset/news/state/nccapitol/2014/04/02/13534230/SBOE_JointCommittee_April_2014.pdf
The vast majority of it looks more like the "slides" from a Powerpoint presentation than an actual report. (What the fuck ever happened to words and data?)

BTW, NCs "solution"? A photo database of all registered voters.

Yeah, because if there's one thing we need in this country, it's another database of citizens.




Oh, also BTW, NC went to Romney. I guess we now know why.
http://www.politico.com/2012-election/results/president/north-carolina/

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[tkhayes 126]

35000 out of a claimed 101 million voter records? you mean..... 0.03%?

say it isn't so......That surely a reason to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on voter ID systems, purge legal voters from voting records and make it difficult for millions more to exercise constitutional rights.

If that is a reason for voter ID laws at that small a margin, then the margin/stats of gun homicides in this country should surely be a valid reason for removing those Constitutional rights as well.

Right?

[rushmc 18]

tkhayes

35000 out of a claimed 101 million voter records? you mean..... 0.03%?

say it isn't so......That surely a reason to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on voter ID systems, purge legal voters from voting records and make it difficult for millions more to exercise constitutional rights.

If that is a reason for voter ID laws at that small a margin, then the margin/stats of gun homicides in this country should surely be a valid reason for removing those Constitutional rights as well.

Right?

Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

But, in the end, one is too many
And the oprotunity needs to be closed
And states are doing just that and the SC is backing this move

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

rushmc

But, in the end, one is too many

Interesting. I didn't realize you were for zero-tolerance policies.

Good to know.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

quade

***But, in the end, one is too many

Interesting. I didn't realize you were for zero-tolerance policies.

Good to know.

Kind of like the left is when it comes to gun rights?

Anyway
In the end it becomes being consistant to me
If it is ok to force someone to have an ID to exersise one right, why then it is different for another?
None have been spelled out as more important than any of the others now have they?

At least the states and courts are getting it
Proof of citizenship to registrer is a good start IMO

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

rushmc

******But, in the end, one is too many

Interesting. I didn't realize you were for zero-tolerance policies.
Good to know.
Kind of like the left is when it comes to gun rights?

Not "kind of"; exactly.

I think it's interesting you find zero-tolerance policies malleable dependent on whether they meet your own purposes or not.

Generally speaking that kind of thing is known as hypocrisy.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Generally speaking that kind of thing is known as hypocrisy.

Yes, it is

And meet MY purposes?
I got no problem presenting an ID to buy a gun
I have no problem with a quick background check
I HAVE a problem when those checks and records are retained

So

YOU all just need be consistant
Just turning the worm your way

And talk about twisting
whew......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

Rush, the only thing twisting here is your argument in the wind.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

quade

Rush, the only thing twisting here is your argument in the wind.

I though one lines were not allowed anymore
And where is my twisting?

I want ID for voters
I am ok with ID's for gun buyer
I am ok with proof of citizenship for both
Neither right is better than the other

Explain to all of us my twisting argument

Please

Where is my hypocrisy?
You claimed that as well

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[tkhayes 126]

Quote

Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

so x 50 states is 1.5%, which is incredibly small, but also completely inaccurate, becuase if they reviewed 101 M voter records, why did they only find the 35000 that pertained to one state?

Studies like this I get a chuckle out of. delve into them for 5 minutes and shoot it full of holes.

And if one voter fraud is too many and must be stopped, then one gun death is too much and must also be stopped.

oh that's right, you would claim that the gun owners have rights.....hmmmm....

[rushmc 18]

tkhayes

Quote

Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

so x 50 states is 1.5%, which is incredibly small, but also completely inaccurate, becuase if they reviewed 101 M voter records, why did they only find the 35000 that pertained to one state?

Studies like this I get a chuckle out of. delve into them for 5 minutes and shoot it full of holes.

And if one voter fraud is too many and must be stopped, then one gun death is too much and must also be stopped.

oh that's right, you would claim that the gun owners have rights.....hmmmm....

I think gun buyers should have an ID
I think voters should have an ID
That is the jist of all of this
Nothing wrong with proving citizenship either
A possible 35,000 votes to be illegal is not just one
And I do not think you have shot holes in anything here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kelpdiver 2]

rushmc

Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

But, in the end, one is too many
And the oprotunity needs to be closed
And states are doing just that and the SC is backing this move

If one is too many, then you should be advocating modernization of all voter systems, starting with the elimination of all mechanical machines or punch card ballots, which tend highly to persist in the poorer voting precincts. Their 1% error rate goes so far beyond 1 vote. Next would be the replacement of Diebold with open source peer reviewed/scrutinized voting software code that allows voters to confirm their entries even after the election.

That is, if one vote matters, regardless of the probable party affiliation.

[Amazon 7]

kelpdiver

That is, if one vote matters, regardless of the probable party affiliation.

And then sanity and reality creeps into the conversation yet again.
http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/voter-fraud-north-carolina-not-so-fast-0?cid=sm_facebook

[rushmc 18]

kelpdiver

***
Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

But, in the end, one is too many
And the oprotunity needs to be closed
And states are doing just that and the SC is backing this move

If one is too many, then you should be advocating modernization of all voter systems, starting with the elimination of all mechanical machines or punch card ballots, which tend highly to persist in the poorer voting precincts. Their 1% error rate goes so far beyond 1 vote. Next would be the replacement of Diebold with open source peer reviewed/scrutinized voting software code that allows voters to confirm their entries even after the election.

That is, if one vote matters, regardless of the probable party affiliation.

Diebold code will not be an issue again untit the Dems loose the White House

For now it is ok

(btw, I dont like electronic voting machines with no paper trail)

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[davjohns 1]

tkhayes

35000 out of a claimed 101 million voter records? you mean..... 0.03%?

say it isn't so......That surely a reason to spend hundreds of millions of dollars on voter ID systems, purge legal voters from voting records and make it difficult for millions more to exercise constitutional rights.

If that is a reason for voter ID laws at that small a margin, then the margin/stats of gun homicides in this country should surely be a valid reason for removing those Constitutional rights as well.

Right?

Sigh...this is why I rarely peek in SC anymore.

Google is a good friend, but you have to be fair with what you find.

1. Voter turnout in the US General Elections 2012 = 130M...not sure where the 101 number came from. NC having 35,000 potential fraudulent votes could suggest as many as 1.75M nationally if we presume all fraudulent votes were captured and multiply that number by 50 states. There are much better ways of getting to an estimate, but this is something anyone here should be able to come up with in moments. Personally, I consider that many potential fraudulent votes worth addressing.

2. I'm not sure who is recommending a voter ID system, purging legal voters from the ranks, etc. My state already has a voter registration system. I would just like them to ask for my photo ID when I go to vote. Since the overwhelming majority of registered voters likely already have photo ID, I can't imagine giving ID to the remainder is that daunting a task.

3. Comparing asking for ID to complete elimination of a constitutionally protected right is next door to trolling...if not there already.

4. To another poster: I don't care who carried the state. I don't care who benefits from voter fraud. It is still wrong and eliminating it is a legitimate goal of any system that calls itself democratic.

If you take issue with anything I've written here, please use logic to refute my position. I love debate. I abhor argument.

Thanks.

David

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[turtlespeed 212]

Why is it, dare I ask, does it seem that no one besides you in this thread seem to have an issue with the voter fraud, but have issue with your right of center beliefs?

Telling

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[quade 3]

turtlespeed

Why is it, dare I ask, does it seem that no one besides you in this thread seem to have an issue with the voter fraud, but have issue with your right of center beliefs?

I don't see anybody attacking him for his right of center beliefs.

My objections are based on the mischaracterizations of the article linked, the innumeracy and lack of understanding in what is and isn't a reasonable margin of error when sampling data.

It is a leap to a conclusion that voter IDs are required because of this.

What is "telling" here is the amount of crying over spilled milk and attempts by one party to "fix" the system to enable voter suppression. Not Rush mind you, but the folks over at "The National Review" et. al.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

quade

***Why is it, dare I ask, does it seem that no one besides you in this thread seem to have an issue with the voter fraud, but have issue with your right of center beliefs?

I don't see anybody attacking him for his right of center beliefs.

My objections are based on the mischaracterizations of the article linked, the innumeracy and lack of understanding in what is and isn't a reasonable margin of error when sampling data.

It is a leap to a conclusion that voter IDs are required because of this.

What is "telling" here is the amount of crying over spilled milk and attempts by one party to "fix" the system to enable voter suppression. Not Rush mind you, but the folks over at "The National Review" et. al.

ID's should be required
And the states that care about keeping voting clean are going that way
And that is a good thing

And the Feds do not have the SC helping them stop this anymore


I also find it funny that stats around legal gun ownership show much lower numbers than the voting stats you complain about
Yet you think gun buyers should have ID's exercise that right

Why the inconsistancy on your part?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

turtlespeed

Why is it, dare I ask, does it seem that no one besides you in this thread seem to have an issue with the voter fraud, but have issue with your right of center beliefs?

Telling

Would that be the usual FAR from right center beliefs that anything that keeps "those" people who do not vote the same way as you do as a great position to win elections in any way you can because your party has a message that is abhorrent to MOST of the people of America, dare I ask??

[marks2065 0]

rushmc

***

Quote

Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

so x 50 states is 1.5%, which is incredibly small, but also completely inaccurate, becuase if they reviewed 101 M voter records, why did they only find the 35000 that pertained to one state?

Studies like this I get a chuckle out of. delve into them for 5 minutes and shoot it full of holes.

And if one voter fraud is too many and must be stopped, then one gun death is too much and must also be stopped.

oh that's right, you would claim that the gun owners have rights.....hmmmm....

I think gun buyers should have an ID
I think voters should have an ID
That is the jist of all of this
Nothing wrong with proving citizenship either
A possible 35,000 votes to be illegal is not just one
And I do not think you have shot holes in anything here

If they found this in one state, I bet there are other states that have fraud. Like the New Yorkers that vote in new York and Florida, or the county in Ohio (I think?) that voted 120% for Obama and 0% for Romney, or the dead voting in Florida or Chicago. Voter fraud has been around for many years and needs to be greatly reduced. Voting is probably the most important thing a citizen can do, and anything that important needs to watched and verified. Citizenship, picture ID, and yearly registration for proof of address should be the minimum requirements to vote. If the people were serious about having a great country they would want to make sure their vote counted and not cancelled by fraud. To have an election change because dead people, illegals, inmates, double voting or any other fraud only hurts our country and the people that live here.

[Amazon 7]

marks2065

******

Quote

Actually the 101 million was the records of voters in 28 states. The 35K issues was within NC voter roles alone

so x 50 states is 1.5%, which is incredibly small, but also completely inaccurate, becuase if they reviewed 101 M voter records, why did they only find the 35000 that pertained to one state?

Studies like this I get a chuckle out of. delve into them for 5 minutes and shoot it full of holes.

And if one voter fraud is too many and must be stopped, then one gun death is too much and must also be stopped.

oh that's right, you would claim that the gun owners have rights.....hmmmm....

I think gun buyers should have an ID
I think voters should have an ID
That is the jist of all of this
Nothing wrong with proving citizenship either
A possible 35,000 votes to be illegal is not just one
And I do not think you have shot holes in anything here

If they found this in one state, I bet there are other states that have fraud. Like the New Yorkers that vote in new York and Florida, or the county in Ohio (I think?) that voted 120% for Obama and 0% for Romney, or the dead voting in Florida or Chicago. Voter fraud has been around for many years and needs to be greatly reduced. Voting is probably the most important thing a citizen can do, and anything that important needs to watched and verified. Citizenship, picture ID, and yearly registration for proof of address should be the minimum requirements to vote. If the people were serious about having a great country they would want to make sure their vote counted and not cancelled by fraud. To have an election change because dead people, illegals, inmates, double voting or any other fraud only hurts our country and the people that live here.


Cool.. but the real reason remains the GOP does not have a message that works for most Americans and if they can make all "those" people stand in super long lines... or not show up at all because of intimidation. or deny's people who they deem not eligible because some GOP election worker does not think they are who they say they are.. after voting in the same precinct for 50 years or so, the GOP knocks off a few percentage points..
Personally I think it is un-American to deny any American to vote that can vote legally to vote.. but I just guess that does not seem to be a real issue for the GOP... bein all Patriotic and shit.. just does not mean what it used to for the Republican Party.

[tkhayes 126]

one of the possible explanations is the number of people that move from one state to another. they searched for names and DoB's to state that this is some sort of valid way of finding out that 'voter fraud' actually occurred. Which it is not. It jut have the appearance that voter fraud MIGHT have occurred.

It is entirely plausible that 35000 people moved from SC in a year and registered in other states. they may have even voted in other states. Just because they are on the rolls in two places and maybe even voted in two places.....does that mean they voted in the EXACT SAME election in two places?

hell no it does not.

But it makes the argument that supports voter fraud.

I register/vote in a municipal or county or state election in FL, then i move to NJ and I register/vote there in a primary and then federal election. Did I just commit voter fraud? No I did not. But the records shown in this study demonstrate CLEARLY that voter fraud was committed.

Now you use that statistic in a faux study like this to say that there is voter fraud. bullshit.

And BTW, voter ID laws would not actually fix or change that scenario. My ID is and was valid in both places and I legally voted in both places.

That is why I roll my eyes when stuff like this comes out. and that is why I am vocal about voter ID laws. That is why i shoot holes in studies like this with ease.

Do I want fraudulent voting? of course not. no one does.

Does the original post make a case that it exists? fuck no, it does not. Is it worth pursuing given the other plausible examples of how these stats might have come about? hardly.

Voter fraud claimants are making the claims - the onus is on them to prove it. When they come up with REAL proof of REAL voter fraud that is statistically significant, I am all ears.

[tkhayes 126]

Quote

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20131230/PC16/131239973

South Carolina gained 52000 people in one year. easily supporting the idea that tens of thousands of people move every year somewhere else....and they probably register to vote and vote in more than one state in a short period of time.

It is not voter fraud. It is a slight defect in the system. More voters are added every day as people turn 18. You cannot have a system that will have 100% perfect Identification of all voters every time. And again, when the problem becomes statistically significant, then we should do something about it. It is not, nor it appears, has it ever been. But of course we love the distraction of a scapegoat problem to blame our problems on.

[richravizza 25]

Here in CA. I just enrolled in Covered Ca.Health Insurance.
I entered all our SS#s, STATE and Fed. tax forms,and My FEDERAL TAX ID# being self employed.

My Verification Was Denied as a Ca. Resident. what? yep..
DENIED after 20+ years being a Resident,Filing and Paying my State taxes and Never having changed my Address.

SO what is Proof of Calf. Residence?

A F*cken WATER BILL.

On the same, PROOF of Residence Form was TWO BOXES I could check.

One For financial assistance,

One For Voter Registration.

NOPE,
No Voter Fraud Here. I'ts Legal LOL