regulator 0 #1 October 17, 2013 http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/63737924453/video-dave-ramsey-lays-out-the-facts-of-obamacare-for "You’re not exempt from math if you’re a Republican, and you’re not exempt from math if you’re a Democrat." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #2 October 17, 2013 I respect Dave Ramsey, but in this piece he's using incomplete examples and faulty assumptions specifically for the purpose of fear mongering. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 622 #3 October 17, 2013 That's funny - those are the exact reasons I don't respect him! That's his M.O.! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #4 October 17, 2013 livendiveI respect Dave Ramsey, but in this piece he's using incomplete examples and faulty assumptions specifically for the purpose of fear mongering. Blues, Dave Care to debate his points? How is forcing people to do something they do not want to do consistent with the principals that the Country was founded on? How is SS a "good" investment? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #5 October 17, 2013 regulatorhttp://poorrichardsnews.com/post/63737924453/video-dave-ramsey-lays-out-the-facts-of-obamacare-for "You’re not exempt from math if you’re a Republican, and you’re not exempt from math if you’re a Democrat." He lost me when he said that insurance companies charge more for people who parachute, than they do for people who do not parachute. As an actual skydiver with insurance I know this is completely false. So he lost me after that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #6 October 17, 2013 http://www.caseyresearch.com/articles/ten-things-to-expect-from-obamacare-in-2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #7 October 17, 2013 DaVinci***I respect Dave Ramsey, but in this piece he's using incomplete examples and faulty assumptions specifically for the purpose of fear mongering. Blues, Dave Care to debate his points? How is forcing people to do something they do not want to do consistent with the principals that the Country was founded on? How is SS a "good" investment? I don't have time today to get deep into details, but my basic problem with this is as follows: In order to believe his assertion that the ACA is going to massively increase the cost of everyone else's premiums, you have to assume that a) the number of currently uninsured people is a much larger fraction of the total population than the 15% reported by the Census Bureau and b) that the majority of these people are uninsured due to pre-existing conditions. Personally, every person I know who doesn’t carry insurance is lacking because they don't want to pay for it, not because they have a condition that precludes it or prices it out if their ability to pay. All of them are if average health. Additionally, it's implied that this is some new scary development, conveniently ignoring the fact that a majority of employer provided group plans already have Pre-existing conditions priced into their premiums using actuarial tables that assume some fraction of the insured population will have these expensive to treat conditions. I've had 6 different health plans over the last 20 years, and not one of them had coverage exclusions for pre-existing conditions. Yes, those plans do exist, but they're primarily privately purchased plans and represent a minority of the total. I agree that our SS program is unsustainable and needs to be reformed in some equitable manner. The people who are being forced to do something they don't want are mainly being forced to pay for the safety net they expect to be there if they need it. I'm fine with expecting them to pay their share just like the rest of us (and subsidizing it if they truly don't have the means). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #8 October 17, 2013 QuoteHe lost me when he said that insurance companies charge more for people who parachute, than they do for people who do not parachute. As an actual skydiver with insurance I know this is completely false. Try to get life insurance. So he is not lying, maybe using a blanket a bit too broadly. And many health insurance coverage try like hell not to cover risky activities.... Which is why many skydivers lie when they are asked how they got hurt, "I fell off a ladder". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #9 October 17, 2013 Bignugget***http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/63737924453/video-dave-ramsey-lays-out-the-facts-of-obamacare-for "You’re not exempt from math if you’re a Republican, and you’re not exempt from math if you’re a Democrat." He lost me when he said that insurance companies charge more for people who parachute, than they do for people who do not parachute. As an actual skydiver with insurance I know this is completely false. So he lost me after that. not completely false. I had a policy a few years ago that charged more for me than my 2 business partners because I am a skydiver. It was either that not be covered for a skydiving injury.You can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #10 October 17, 2013 Rick******http://poorrichardsnews.com/post/63737924453/video-dave-ramsey-lays-out-the-facts-of-obamacare-for "You’re not exempt from math if you’re a Republican, and you’re not exempt from math if you’re a Democrat." He lost me when he said that insurance companies charge more for people who parachute, than they do for people who do not parachute. As an actual skydiver with insurance I know this is completely false. So he lost me after that. not completely false. I had a policy a few years ago that charged more for me than my 2 business partners because I am a skydiver. It was either that not be covered for a skydiving injury. It is a completely false statement. I am a skydiver, I am not charged more. It only takes ONE case to disprove absolute statements like the one he made. He could have made the statement in ways that wouldn't be false, that wasn't one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rick 67 #11 October 17, 2013 gotcha he did make an absolute statement you are correctYou can't be drunk all day if you don't start early! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,384 #12 October 17, 2013 livendiveI've had 6 different health plans over the last 20 years, and not one of them had coverage exclusions for pre-existing conditions. If you are talking about *employers* plans, exclusion for pre-existing conditions is prohibited *unless* you have gone >63 days w/o insurance coverage. This was part of the HIPAA 1996 act."There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #13 October 17, 2013 QuoteIt is a completely false statement. No, it is not. 3:47: If a LIFE insurance company has more people dying than their life insurance premiums per person in that same group of people is going to be higher. And as a person with a wife who works in the industry... Unless you are covered by GROUP insurance and you state you are a skydiver on the application, your rate will go up. How do I know this? My wife is licensed to sell life insurance and she has sold policies to several people on the DZ. QuoteHe could have made the statement in ways that wouldn't be false, that wasn't one of them. Semantics aside (can you do that?) His point is still valid. If you make a company cover everyone no matter what, rates for healthy people have to go up to cover the ones who will cost more to cover. To put this in car terms.... The habitual drunk driver now has to be offered car insurance. The fact that he is a HUGE risk and has wrecked several cars is not allowed to be factored into his acceptance nor his rate. So the 45 year old white woman with zero accidents driving a Volvo will see a rate increase to cover the spread. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #14 October 17, 2013 DaVinci And as a person with a wife who works in the industry... Unless you are covered by GROUP insurance and you state you are a skydiver on the application, your rate will go up. How do I know this? My wife is licensed to sell life insurance and she has sold policies to several people on the DZ. That's a pretty big "unless" there. For most of my working life, companies have provided life insurance, typically at 2x salary. If you want to supplement beyond, then questions may be asked. But up to a threshold, and typical also with options provided with various membership organizations, rates are based on very simple criteria - age, gender, smoking or not, and then potentially height/weight. The 20 some skydivers who died annually are basically noise in the claims paid column. Motorcyclists, which have the same annual risk, are much bigger. But then, so are drivers who drink, versus teetollers who ride the bus/cab. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #15 October 17, 2013 QuoteThat's a pretty big "unless" there Not really. And it still does not change the very basic concept that to make sure everyone is covered at the same rate.... The people who would normally have low rates (and those that normally would not even carry anything) will have to be made to carry something and will have to pay more than they did. QuoteThe 20 some skydivers who died annually are basically noise in the claims paid column. Motorcyclists, which have the same annual risk, are much bigger. But then, so are drivers who drink, versus teetollers who ride the bus/cab. And yet when my wife sells a policy to a jumper they have two options: 1. Pay more. 2. Lie. Many policies have a two year window.... If anything happens after that two year window you are still covered. But this included in many cases suicides. Tell you what.... Just for fun, try to get life insurance and right after they give you a quote... Ask if it covers skydiving and see what happens. Your life experience up to this point has not covered this, maybe the only way you will learn is by doing. Try it and report back and let us know how things went. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #16 October 17, 2013 DaVinciQuoteThat's a pretty big "unless" there Not really. And it still does not change the very basic concept that to make sure everyone is covered at the same rate.... The people who would normally have low rates (and those that normally would not even carry anything) will have to be made to carry something and will have to pay more than they did. ***The 20 some skydivers who died annually are basically noise in the claims paid column. Motorcyclists, which have the same annual risk, are much bigger. But then, so are drivers who drink, versus teetollers who ride the bus/cab. And yet when my wife sells a policy to a jumper they have two options: 1. Pay more. 2. Lie. Many policies have a two year window.... If anything happens after that two year window you are still covered. But this included in many cases suicides. Tell you what.... Just for fun, try to get life insurance and right after they give you a quote... Ask if it covers skydiving and see what happens. Your life experience up to this point has not covered this, maybe the only way you will learn is by doing. Try it and report back and let us know how things went. Everyone is covered at the same rate? What is the rate, and why do I keep hearing such widely varying numbers? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #17 October 17, 2013 https://blog.compete.com/2013/10/15/obamacare-enrollment-stats/ 99.6% of Healthcare.gov Visitors Did NOT Enroll in Obamacare Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #18 October 17, 2013 QuoteEveryone is covered at the same rate? They are not allowed to consider pre existing conditions. They are only allowed to base it on age and sex, although I thought I heard something about smoking. So there might be variations depending on those factors, but they cannot use the real risk factors. It would be like charging for car insurance only on age and sex, but not being able to consider make and model of car or past driving history. Quoteand why do I keep hearing such widely varying numbers? Because there ARE factors that are included. For one, each STATE gets to decide the rates. So the rate for a 20 year old non-smoker in California might be different than Nebraska. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #19 October 17, 2013 DaVinciQuoteEveryone is covered at the same rate? They are not allowed to consider pre existing conditions. They are only allowed to base it on age and sex, although I thought I heard something about smoking. So there might be variations depending on those factors, but they cannot use the real risk factors. It would be like charging for car insurance only on age and sex, but not being able to consider make and model of car or past driving history. ***and why do I keep hearing such widely varying numbers? Because there ARE factors that are included. For one, each STATE gets to decide the rates. So the rate for a 20 year old non-smoker in California might be different than Nebraska. Cool, So everyone isn't covered at the same rate. Why did you say they were? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #20 October 17, 2013 QuoteSo everyone isn't covered at the same rate. Why did you say they were? Because they are by STATE. Not a difficult concept. Same pool, same rates. I know your whole intent is to get into semantics. But it just shows the weakness of your position. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bignugget 0 #21 October 17, 2013 DaVinciQuoteSo everyone isn't covered at the same rate. Why did you say they were? Because they are by STATE. Not a difficult concept. Same pool, same rates. I know your whole intent is to get into semantics. But it just shows the weakness of your position. So everyone in the same state has the same rates? No, they don't. My intent is to illustrate that your statement of "everyone being covered at the same rate" isn't accurate. In fact according to YOU, there are different rates by state, age, sex, and smoking. ......that isn't semantics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaDon 340 #22 October 17, 2013 beowulfhttps://blog.compete.com/2013/10/15/obamacare-enrollment-stats/ 99.6% of Healthcare.gov Visitors Did NOT Enroll in ObamacareYou aren't considered enrolled until you pay, and you have until Dec 15 to pay for coverage beginning in January. How many people do you think are going to pay in full 2 months before the bill is due? Moreover the stats are skewed by the number of people who had to log on several times due to the clunky start up. Also, who is really surprised that people will visit to get information so they can comparison shop before they buy, especially when the deadline is months away? If your intent was to suggest that 99.6% of visitors looked at all the plans on offer and rejected all of them, that's a pretty dumb suggestion. As I'm sure you know full well. Don_____________________________________ Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996) “Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #23 October 18, 2013 GeorgiaDon***https://blog.compete.com/2013/10/15/obamacare-enrollment-stats/ 99.6% of Healthcare.gov Visitors Did NOT Enroll in ObamacareYou aren't considered enrolled until you pay, and you have until Dec 15 to pay for coverage beginning in January. How many people do you think are going to pay in full 2 months before the bill is due? Moreover the stats are skewed by the number of people who had to log on several times due to the clunky start up. Also, who is really surprised that people will visit to get information so they can comparison shop before they buy, especially when the deadline is months away? If your intent was to suggest that 99.6% of visitors looked at all the plans on offer and rejected all of them, that's a pretty dumb suggestion. As I'm sure you know full well. Don That was the title of the blog entry. Try reading it before you judge it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #24 October 18, 2013 QuoteSo everyone in the same state has the same rates? No, they don't. Based on age and very few limiting factors... Yes. QuoteIn fact according to YOU, there are different rates by state, age, sex, and smoking. ......that isn't semantics. Yes it is, and it is your only argument. Care to debate the topic without the BS? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
