Good news for EV customers, bad for Fear Mongers

[CygnusX-1 42]

And not really news for those who own a 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, etc. prius. (Although I believe they are not Li based.)

http://www.designnews.com/document.asp?doc_id=261882&cid=NL_Newsletters+-+DN+Daily&dfpPParams=ind_184,industry_auto,aid_261882&dfpLayout=article

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Can EV Batteries Last 20 Years?

Lithium-ion batteries for electric cars may last far longer than we’ve been led to believe, a battery expert told the American Chemical Society in a speech this week.

Mikael Cugnet of the French Atomic Energy Commission said current estimates of an eight-year lithium-ion life have been based on accelerated tests that don’t necessarily provide an accurate picture of how long the batteries will really last in electric cars and hybrids. He believes that if managed properly, EV battery packs could operate reliably for 15 years, and possibly as long as 20 years.

”The accelerated testing that’s performed in labs is not exactly representative of what will happen during real road use,” Cugnet told Design News. “Accelerated testing is usually performed at much higher temperatures and in a much shorter time period than you’d see in real-life use. That’s why people are getting such low values.”

Cugnet contends that accelerated testing often takes place at temperatures as high as 40C (104F), which is higher than the mean temperature at most locations around the world. “That’s the way we do it because there’s not enough time to do a real field test,” he told us. “But it’s not accurate. It doesn’t represent what the battery will really see in the field.”

“Up to now, researchers have also based their estimates for lithium batteries on prior experience with lead-acid and nickel-metal hydride," Cugnet said. But he argues that packs made with those materials tend to use less consistent manufacturing processes.

”Lithium-ion batteries should perform better because they have fewer impurities,” he said. “So the degradation will not be as fast.” He added that electronic battery management is simpler and more reliable if material quality is more consistent from cell to cell.

Other factors also play into the life expectancy of lithium-ion batteries. The first of those factors -- temperature -- is the most important. Batteries that are exposed to high mean temperatures tend to degrade significantly faster than those in colder climates. “If you’re living in Abu Dhabi, the battery life will be much shorter than if you’re in a place that has colder winters,” Cugnet told us. “And if you have your car parked under the sun in Atlanta or Louisiana three months of every year, the battery won’t last 20 years.”

The wrong charging techniques can also shorten a battery’s life. Lithium-ion battery packs need to stay as close as possible to a 50 percent charge, he said, usually going no higher than 80 percent and no lower than 20 percent. Moreover, electric car owners should refrain from doing too many “fast charges,” in which an EV battery can be recharged in under an hour.

”At high power, there is deformation of the material on a particle scale,” Cugnet said. “If you’re really in a hurry, it’s OK to do it a few times,” he said. “But most of the time, you should charge your car overnight.”

If managed properly, and if the car’s manufacturer incorporates a good, active cooling system, lithium-ion EV batteries should operate much more than eight years before finally losing more than 20 percent of their original power. The truth won’t be known, however, until lithium cells have been on the road for a couple decades, Cugnet said.

“The extrapolation we’ve made from our own tests shows that lithium-ion packs can last 15 or even 20 years,” he said. “It mostly depends on how you charge it and what temperature it operates at.”

[Lefty 0]

Until they make an EV with a tactical luggage rail or a pistol grip steering wheel, I don't think "fear" is what critics are mongering. EVs are actually one of the most benign things I can think of, especially considering the people who tend to drive them.

Anyway:

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Other factors also play into the life expectancy of lithium-ion batteries. The first of those factors -- temperature -- is the most important. Batteries that are exposed to high mean temperatures tend to degrade significantly faster than those in colder climates. “If you’re living in Abu Dhabi, the battery life will be much shorter than if you’re in a place that has colder winters,” Cugnet told us. “And if you have your car parked under the sun in Atlanta or Louisiana three months of every year, the battery won’t last 20 years.”

The wrong charging techniques can also shorten a battery’s life. Lithium-ion battery packs need to stay as close as possible to a 50 percent charge, he said, usually going no higher than 80 percent and no lower than 20 percent. Moreover, electric car owners should refrain from doing too many “fast charges,” in which an EV battery can be recharged in under an hour.

So many rules.

Provoking a reaction isn't the same thing as saying something meaningful.
-Calvin

[rushmc 18]

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Until they make an EV with a tactical luggage rail or a pistol grip steering wheel, I don't think "fear" is what critics are mongering. EVs are actually one of the most benign things I can think of, especially considering the people who tend to drive them.

Anyway:

Quote

Other factors also play into the life expectancy of lithium-ion batteries. The first of those factors -- temperature -- is the most important. Batteries that are exposed to high mean temperatures tend to degrade significantly faster than those in colder climates. “If you’re living in Abu Dhabi, the battery life will be much shorter than if you’re in a place that has colder winters,” Cugnet told us. “And if you have your car parked under the sun in Atlanta or Louisiana three months of every year, the battery won’t last 20 years.”

The wrong charging techniques can also shorten a battery’s life. Lithium-ion battery packs need to stay as close as possible to a 50 percent charge, he said, usually going no higher than 80 percent and no lower than 20 percent. Moreover, electric car owners should refrain from doing too many “fast charges,” in which an EV battery can be recharged in under an hour.

So many rules.

Actually , generally speaking, I find those that drive these things (as well as handicapped stickered drivers) to be some of the biggest arogant ass holes on the road

Or maybe they just have trouble seeing because they have the noses so damned far up in the air

You tell me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[BillyVance 34]

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Actually , generally speaking, I find those that drive these things (as well as handicapped stickered drivers) to be some of the biggest arogant ass holes on the road

Or maybe they just have trouble seeing because they have the noses so damned far up in the air

You tell me

Generally speaking... maybe... In my brother and father's case (both have Priuses, and my bro also has a Rav4 electric), I've never seen them act like assholes on the road. Trust me, I'm THE asshole of the family and I don't even own an EV.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[NewGuy2005 51]

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Actually , generally speaking, I find those that drive these things (as well as handicapped stickered drivers) to be some of the biggest arogant ass holes on the road

Or maybe they just have trouble seeing because they have the noses so damned far up in the air

You tell me

Where do you live that you see enough EVs to make that kind of generalization? I've only seen a handful in my life.

[rushmc 18]

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Actually , generally speaking, I find those that drive these things (as well as handicapped stickered drivers) to be some of the biggest arogant ass holes on the road

Or maybe they just have trouble seeing because they have the noses so damned far up in the air

You tell me

Where do you live that you see enough EVs to make that kind of generalization? I've only seen a handful in my life.

NW corner of the state of Iowa
I see them all the time

We even have some I have never heard of

All in towns
No rural

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

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NW corner of the state of Iowa
I see them all the time

We even have some I have never heard of

All in towns
No rural

There must have been an absolute flurry of EV sale in Iowa in the last three months. This article(http://globegazette.com/news/iowa/electric-cars-may-face-iowa-registration-fee-jump/article_735ea3be-5a7e-11e2-994e-0019bb2963f4.html) says there were only 41 registered in the entire state in January.

Perhaps you meant hybrids?

- Dan G

[kallend 1,625]

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Actually , generally speaking, I find those that drive these things (as well as handicapped stickered drivers) to be some of the biggest arogant ass holes on the road

Or maybe they just have trouble seeing because they have the noses so damned far up in the air

You tell me

Where do you live that you see enough EVs to make that kind of generalization? I've only seen a handful in my life.

NW corner of the state of Iowa
I see them all the time

We even have some I have never heard of

All in towns
No rural

"All the time"; I'm impressed. In Chicago I see maybe one a week. Of course, rural NW Iowa is much more suitable for EVs than a city of 2.7 million with a bunch of charging stations.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,400]

>This article(http://globegazette.com/...4e-0019bb2963f4.html) says there were only 41
>registered in the entire state in January.

They all live within a mile of him. Amazing coincidence; otherwise he wouldn't have had a way to smear EV drivers.

[Bertt 0]

Are these different from the Boeing Dreamliner batteries? Those haven't done so well.

You don't have to outrun the bear.

[rushmc 18]

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NW corner of the state of Iowa
I see them all the time

We even have some I have never heard of

All in towns
No rural

There must have been an absolute flurry of EV sale in Iowa in the last three months. This article(http://globegazette.com/news/iowa/electric-cars-may-face-iowa-registration-fee-jump/article_735ea3be-5a7e-11e2-994e-0019bb2963f4.html) says there were only 41 registered in the entire state in January.

Perhaps you meant hybrids?

I see this as the same class of car, so yes. We also have an EV dealer (of some kind) in Lake Park, Iowa
Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

I would love to see your face the day you discover the car you just bought . . . is actually a hybrid. Lots of them out there now, and not all of them are obvious.

[kallend 1,625]

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NW corner of the state of Iowa
I see them all the time

We even have some I have never heard of

All in towns
No rural

There must have been an absolute flurry of EV sale in Iowa in the last three months. This article(http://globegazette.com/news/iowa/electric-cars-may-face-iowa-registration-fee-jump/article_735ea3be-5a7e-11e2-994e-0019bb2963f4.html) says there were only 41 registered in the entire state in January.

Perhaps you meant hybrids?

I see this as the same class of car, so yes. We also have an EV dealer (of some kind) in Lake Park, Iowa
Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

Yes, they are humans, with heads, torsos, limbs, etc.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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>Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

I would love to see your face the day you discover the car you just bought . . . is actually a hybrid. Lots of them out there now, and not all of them are obvious.

Car?

Doubt it
And I would really be surprise when I replace my 94 1 ton chevy with the stroker 383 I have in it, is a hybrid

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>And I would really be surprise when I replace my 94 1 ton chevy with the stroker
>383 I have in it, is a hybrid

It might be a 2004 Chevy Silverado. They don't even say "hybrid" on them, likely to placate the manly-men who don't want to be seen driving a wussy hybrid. If you buy it from a contractor it's more likely to be a hybrid; they like the AC power the truck provides for jobsite power. No separate generator.

Or a GMC Sierra, or a Dodge Ram, or a Ford F-150. You might even get the double whammy and end up with an E85 Silverado hybrid! You'd never be able to show your face again at the local gun store.

[livendive 8]

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I see this as the same class of car, so yes. We also have an EV dealer (of some kind) in Lake Park, Iowa
Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

Sometimes I drive a 2012 Camaro SS w/ 426 hp 383. Othertimes I drive a 2010 Prius. Maybe it depends on how stuck up I'm feeling when I walk into the garage?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[livendive 8]

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It might be a 2004 Chevy Silverado. They don't even say "hybrid" on them, likely to placate the manly-men who don't want to be seen driving a wussy hybrid. If you buy it from a contractor it's more likely to be a hybrid; they like the AC power the truck provides for jobsite power. No separate generator.

Contractor special. I actually considered one before buying my last Tundra. If I remember correctly it had the capacity to power our house during an outage (minus AC), would just require some monkeying with the electrical system in the garage.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Andy9o8 0]

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It might be a 2004 Chevy Silverado. They don't even say "hybrid" on them, likely to placate the manly-men who don't want to be seen driving a wussy hybrid. If you buy it from a contractor it's more likely to be a hybrid; they like the AC power the truck provides for jobsite power. No separate generator.

Contractor special. I actually considered one before buying my last Tundra. If I remember correctly it had the capacity to power our house during an outage (minus AC), would just require some monkeying with the electrical system in the garage.

Blues,
Dave

Would those be the evolutionary monkeys or the intelligent design monkeys?

Careful now, this is a trick question.

[DanG 1]

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I see this as the same class of car, so yes. We also have an EV dealer (of some kind) in Lake Park, Iowa
Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

That's awesome. You get called on BS, so you expand your insult to encompass even more people.

If I had to generalize, people who drive oversized trucks which have clearly never seen dirt or hauled lumber are some of the most obnoxious drivers out there.

Of course I'm way too wholesome and righteous to engage in generalizations. After all, I drive a Prius.

- Dan G

[ryoder 1,387]

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After all, I drive a Prius.

Drive a Prius here in the Boulder area, and you'll just blend in with the crowd.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[oldwomanc6 38]

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I see this as the same class of car, so yes. We also have an EV dealer (of some kind) in Lake Park, Iowa
Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

That's awesome. You get called on BS, so you expand your insult to encompass even more people.

If I had to generalize, people who drive oversized trucks which have clearly never seen dirt or hauled lumber are some of the most obnoxious drivers out there.

Of course I'm way too wholesome and righteous to engage in generalizations. After all, I drive a Prius.

I live in fairly rural area, and believe you me, my truck has seen plenty of dirt. After all they don't haul your trash away here.

I would not valet park a Prius, but might a Tesla.

lisa
WSCR 594
FB 1023
CBDB 9

[kallend 1,625]

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Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

This from the guy who criticized others for making generalizations.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[livendive 8]

Would't you like to know?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rushmc 18]

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I see this as the same class of car, so yes. We also have an EV dealer (of some kind) in Lake Park, Iowa
Those that drive this type of vehicle are all the same to me

That's awesome. You get called on BS, so you expand your insult to encompass even more people.

If I had to generalize, people who drive oversized trucks which have clearly never seen dirt or hauled lumber are some of the most obnoxious drivers out there.

Of course I'm way too wholesome and righteous to engage in generalizations. After all, I drive a Prius.

The premise of the thread is bs to begin with
(please re-read the title)

Go with the flow

And yes, I do mix them together

I see these cars drive over the speed limit and cut more people off than others

Must be because is it hard for them to see through their self-righteousness

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[DanG 1]

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I live in fairly rural area, and believe you me, my truck has seen plenty of dirt. After all they don't haul your trash away here.

I would not valet park a Prius, but might a Tesla.

I have no problem with trucks. My wife drives a pickup, and they don't pick up our trash here, either. It's the giant trucks with chrome and "No Fat Chicks" stickers (drivers generally a fat unwashed male), or the Escalade sized SUVs with soccer stickers and stick figure families (driver invariably an overdone, middle-aged woman on the cell phone) that have to go 1mph over parking lot speed bumps that drive me crazy.

- Dan G