Is going from a WL of 1.1 to 1.4 too much too soon?

[Newbie 0]

Advice needed please...

Might be selling my first set of gear soon - Hornet 190 loaded at 1.1 (currently 210lbs on exit).

Almost 300 jumps on this gear, stand up every landing, can land where i want to, completed all of Bill V's checklist for downsizing etc, enjoy straight in approaches, not looking to get into my swoops for now.

Thinking if i sell up, will look at getting a new set of gear designed around a 150 main, perhaps same size or larger (170?) reserve. Is this too much of a step down? I flew a 170 the other weekend, and it was noticeably a fair bit faster, but felt fine.

Thoughts and advice appreciated.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[dharma1976 0]

can you do everythign on this card with your canopy???

http://uspa.org/publications/form.pdf/Canopy_Prof_Card_07-04.pdf

if so you might be ready...

but remember it never hurts to take it slow and live a long time in the sport...

you dont want my arthritus

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[wmw999 2,157]

How does winter affect your jumping? If it means a long layoff, then a 150 to start the new season might not be the best of ideas.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Peej 0]

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you dont want my arthritus

Or the metal in my leg

Great advice so far from Dharma and Wendy.

Newbie: can you borrow a 170? I've always been told that it's never a good idea to skip a step when downsizing. So even if you buy a container that's built for a 150 you should be able to squeeze a 170 in there, just to do a few jumps on at least.

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[Newbie 0]

I do a lot of that sort of stuff just on regular jumps. I'm happy i could do them all, but i still don't know if that means i'm ready for a downsize to this wingloading level.

Has anyone downsized to this level in one go and did you notice it being quite severe?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[dharma1976 0]

or the floating screws in mine :-P

the doctor told me recently that I have a few screws loose

in my ankle that is

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Newbie 0]

Yeah i normally have a lay off of several months, but if i ended the season on a 150, i'd prob jump a 170 from a friends rig at the start of next season to warm myself up into it. I wouldn't want to downsize right after a few months lay off.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Newbie 0]

Yeah i know some people with spare 170s kicking about. Thats basically the other option - get a rig built for a 150 and stuff a 170 in there for a while. Thoughts on that as an option?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[wmw999 2,157]

Would you be trying to swoop this? I don't know anything about that, but if you're just trying to have a smaller rig on your back, why not stick with the 170 for a season, and really work it out?

If you get a container sized for a 170, and then put a 150 into it in a year, it'll be easier to pack and more comfortable to wear; these are good things.

I downsized from a 220-sq-ft F111 canopy to a 150 zp in a day. A jump on a 190, and about 3 on a 170. But I don't ever swoop, and I had 1100 jumps at the time. I didn't break myself, but it wasn't the smartest way to go. Really. I also don't have a down season -- winter here just means you wear long pants instead of shorts most days.

I did not master that 150, but I didn't hurt myself on it either because I PLF with abandon .

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Newbie 0]

Nah no swooping. I'm trying to build in an element of future proofing...basically if i get a 150 i could fly the 170 for a bit next season, get onto my 150 then use that for several years/several hundred jumps as per my 190, then maybe stuff a 135 or whatever in the same container rather than having to buy a new rig.
Thoughts?

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Peej 0]

I'd advise it more than going straight from the 90 to the 150.

I haven't followed the most aggressive downsizing pattern - but i haven't been the most conservative pilot either. I put around 50 or so jumps on a 150 before i went down to my Safire 135, and i'm glad i did.

I was lucky that we don't really have an off season here and i managed to squeeze in a lot of jumping. Still, there was much falling over when i first got the 135 and i popped up on a couple people's radars as someone to watch.

If i did it again i would have stayed on the "in betweener" longer.

Advertisio Rodriguez / Sky

[Newbie 0]

Thanks for the advice, sounds like a few on the 170 would be advisable, regardless of anty downtime over winter.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[Ron 7]

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Has anyone downsized to this level in one go and did you notice it being quite severe?

Yep, and I hooked the fucker in on the third jump. Nice little hospital trip, but was really lucky in that I just hurt really bad and did not break anything...Even then I had to use crutches for three days.

It really does pay to go slow in this sport.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Newbie 0]

Yeah i think i'll step it down one at a time after what you, Peej and others have said.

Thanks all.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[matthewcline 0]

Kind of like Ron's situation, I did a dramatic down size (70 feet dropped in one step), I had the "I am tough and not stupid so no worries" attitude.

About 5 or 6 jumps later I was doing multiple PLF's across about 150 yards of dirt, cross wind and rapidly approaching a hanger. I got into a situation I had handled before but with a 170 not a 100.

I got VERY VERY VERY LUCKY and only had to re-inflate my ego, dust off my pride and the borrowed rig.

Did I mention I was lucky? Very Lucky?

Don't skip any steps, I am gonna need you to coach me in better canopy skills in a year or two I will be looking for a refresher, it is some thing I do from time to time, even though I am "qualified" to fly the canopy I have.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[skybytch 259]

I'm curious - what are your reasons for downsizing?

One size at a time is the smart way to downsize. Put at least as many jumps on a 170 as you've put on your 190 before going to a 150. If you're planning to get the new gear while you're on your off-season, wait until you are jumping again to sell your 190; use that to get current again, then go to the 170.

If your current rig was built for the 190, you don't need to buy a whole new rig - you should be able to put a 170 into it no problem. Of course you may just want all new gear, in which case ignore what I just said.

Since no one else has mentioned it, think hard about the reserve size before you decide. Remember that reserve rides don't always happen in perfect conditions; you can't always count on landing your reserve in your normal landing area. Ask yourself if you are confident that you can (and if you really want to) land whatever size F111 7 cell in a backyard. Downwind. Unconcious.

[Newbie 0]

I'm thinking about selling all my gear to a newly graduated A license holder. I want to downsize so that i get more forward speed, not really on landing (i will get into swooping but not right now, and it will be done over time) but more while flying around. I see my friends flying with a nice amount of forward speed, and i'd like to do that too. I think if i was going to get a 150 main, i'd like to have a larger reserve. I hear Wings are nice containers and can accomodate a larger reserve than main (i wouldn't be happy about downsizing to a 150 and having a sub 150 reserve given the hypothetical you outlined).

Do you not think doing 300 jumps on a 170 is excessive though, in so much as the need to safely downsize to a 150? Surely if i can fly the 170 safely and do all the things on the USPA downsize checklist in 50 jumps, that would make me more or less safe to then begin flying a 150?

It's this whole "do x amount of jumps on this canopy to be safe" thing that i'm not getting. It just seems very arbitary, doesn't it?

Not being antagonistic, just trying to understand the reasoning.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[174fps 1]

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Yeah i know some people with spare 170s kicking about. Thats basically the other option - get a rig built for a 150 and stuff a 170 in there for a while. Thoughts on that as an option?

I put a 170 Spectre in my Voodoo V3 (150 tempo reserve)
for about 300 jumps before getting my 150
generally you can go one size larger or one size smaller on most rigs.

Andrew

[phoenixlpr 0]

I was under WL 1.2 ~ jump nr 180 and 1.4 ~ nr 260.
WL does not kill you, bad decisions under any WL can.

[skybytch 259]

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Do you not think doing 300 jumps on a 170 is excessive though, in so much as the need to safely downsize to a 150? Surely if i can fly the 170 safely and do all the things on the USPA downsize checklist in 50 jumps, that would make me more or less safe to then begin flying a 150?

I don't think 300 jumps on a particular wingloading before downsizing is excessive at all. I know people who've done 1000+ jumps at 1.2 before downsizing - they could fly the shit out of that canopy, and being able to do so made their eventual downsize much easier and safer.

Think about all the different conditions and situations you've flown your 190 in. How many of those were new to you (i.e. you hadn't dealt with them before) in your last 250 jumps? Now think about the possible conditions and situations that you haven't flown your 190 in, and that may not present themselves to you in your next 50 jumps.

Additionally, if swooping is in your future, you're probably going to be safer learning to swoop under a 1.2-ish wingloading than you would be under a 1.4 wingloading.

[dharma1976 0]

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I was under WL 1.2 ~ jump nr 180 and 1.4 ~ nr 260.
WL does not kill you, bad decisions under any WL can.

bad education leads to bad decisions...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[billvon 2,444]

>WL does not kill you, bad decisions under any WL can.

Indeed. And one of the worst decisions you can make as a new jumper is to get a high WL.

[Ron 7]

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I was under WL 1.2 ~ jump nr 180 and 1.4 ~ nr 260.
WL does not kill you, bad decisions under any WL can.

Agreed, but it is easier to get hurt at a higher wingload. You can't make the same amount of mistakes with a higher WL and expect to be fine.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Ron 7]

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I want to downsize so that i get more forward speed, not really on landing (i will get into swooping but not right now, and it will be done over time) but more while flying around

The problem is the more speed flying around *always* means more speed on landing.

And as for swooping...It is easier to learn to swoop with a canopy that is well within your skill set than a canopy you can barely fly.

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Do you not think doing 300 jumps on a 170 is excessive though

Nope. I know people with thousands of jumps that jump a 170. You could jump a 170 for the rest of your, hopefully long, career. I myself did 370 jumps on a 220 sqft, 7 cell, f111 canopy before I got a new canopy.

The race to be a cool swooper does not always go to the swift, but often the ones that live long enough to get better.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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Surely if i can fly the 170 safely and do all the things on the USPA downsize checklist in 50 jumps, that would make me more or less safe to then begin flying a 150?

No. Going through the downsizing checklist only means that you can do those things when you're thinking about them under ideal conditions. It doesn't mean you'll instinctively do them when things go wrong. 50 jumps are definately not enough to adjust your muscle memory and perceptions; or to yield a high probability of something going wrong after which you get to test yourself with less risk than you'd have under a smaller canopy.

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Do you not think doing 300 jumps on a 170 is excessive though

It's not unreasonable.

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It's this whole "do x amount of jumps on this canopy to be safe" thing that i'm not getting. It just seems very arbitary, doesn't it?

It is somewhat arbitrary.

Everybody's different and the effects of each canopy change are different. When I switched from a 134 elliptical (Batwing) to a more radical 120 (Stiletto) after 200 jumps, totaling about 600 jumps the thing wouldn't always swoop in a straight line. It hurt to walk for a few months following a hard landing where I lacked the experience to recognize how low I was and correct it without popping back up high and stalling. Going from a 155 to 135 square with a lot less jumps under the 155 hadn't caused any obvious problems.

You're the only one with all the information, but don't yet have the experience to evaluate it. 600 jumps before getting to my Stiletto wasn't enough to have me making fully informed descisions. Another 600 jumps under that Stiletto (after which I still had a lot to learn) showed me that I didn't know a lot before that, and provides enough of a yard stick to show me that 300 jumps under a 105 arround the same wing loading (1.6 - 1.8) hasn't been enough to get that dialed in.

People have a limited number of datapoints. Lots of us mostly got away with things that weren't good ideas - I only bruised my heels. Deciding to down size sooner because some of us were lucky isn't prudent.

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Not being antagonistic, just trying to understand the reasoning.

If you were to downsize as fast as allowed by Brian Germain's WNE chart you'd be spending up to 200 jumps at a size.

I'd also suggest a year-per-canopy minimum so you get a wide range of conditions (winds, density altitude, currency in places with seasons).