billvon 2,400 #126 August 20, 2012 >In fact, some companies paid their CEOs more money than they paid in taxes. So? I bet you get paid more than you pay in taxes. My wife runs a rigging business and she definitely takes in more money than she pays in taxes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #127 August 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteNot for what it is intended for. It is not a "Living" wage, it is a "minimum", and it is pretty decent when applied as intended. If minimum wage is too low for those individuals, do like Bill pointed out, work harder, get the raise, get the education, make yourself worth more for, more pay. Matt Still no recognition that the minimum wage is set too low. There that help ya out some? Or is this what you want? IMO it is not too low. If it is not what you want to use it for, fine, still not too low, IMO. It is not meant a living wage, but a minimum wage. It is not that hard a concept to understand, or is it? MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,623 #128 August 20, 2012 Quote Going into debt is a poor way to be able to buy lots of stuff. It's how I bought my first house.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #129 August 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteNot for what it is intended for. It is not a "Living" wage, it is a "minimum", and it is pretty decent when applied as intended. If minimum wage is too low for those individuals, do like Bill pointed out, work harder, get the raise, get the education, make yourself worth more for, more pay. Matt Still no recognition that the minimum wage is set too low. There that help ya out some? Or is this what you want? IMO it is not too low. If it is not what you want to use it for, fine, still not too low, IMO. It is not meant a living wage, but a minimum wage. It is not that hard a concept to understand, or is it? Matt If a basic algorithm in the machine is losing value year on year for decades then it's time to do something about it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #130 August 20, 2012 >It's how I bought my first house. That was probably a good investment. In general houses appreciate in value. (Although taking out loans that you do not have a good plan for paying back can be a disaster, as we've seen over the past few years.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #131 August 20, 2012 >If a basic algorithm in the machine is losing value year on year for decades then >it's time to do something about it. Agreed. Best get a faster/smaller/cheaper machine to do the same thing, so you stop losing money. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #132 August 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNot for what it is intended for. It is not a "Living" wage, it is a "minimum", and it is pretty decent when applied as intended. If minimum wage is too low for those individuals, do like Bill pointed out, work harder, get the raise, get the education, make yourself worth more for, more pay. Matt Still no recognition that the minimum wage is set too low. There that help ya out some? Or is this what you want? IMO it is not too low. If it is not what you want to use it for, fine, still not too low, IMO. It is not meant a living wage, but a minimum wage. It is not that hard a concept to understand, or is it? Matt If a basic algorithm in the machine is losing value year on year for decades then it's time to do something about it. So what you actually want is not a "Mimimum" wage, but an "Entitlements" wage. A wage that would guarantee that low output gets higher pay. Instead of remembering it is not a living wage, but a minimum wage, as some one mentioned - to avoid servitude and slavery type uses. Maybe, we should stop the apples and oranges comparisons, and it will be a more on point discussion. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #133 August 20, 2012 QuoteIn 1980, the average US CEO was paid 42 times as much as the average worker when tax rates for the richest stood at 70%. Today, that ratio has widened to 380 times – exacerbated in part, no doubt, by the fact that CEOs are able to dramatically reduce their tax burdens by a reduction in top tax rates, as well as several new loopholes introduced in recent years. In fact, some companies paid their CEOs more money than they paid in taxes. Take Aubrey McClendon, CEO of Oklahoma-based Chesapeake Energy, who was paid $17.9m in 2011, while his company gave Uncle Sam just $13m on sales of $11.64bn. You do realize that they don't actually pay the CEOs this amount. Most of this is stock or stock options. Doing so gives the CEO a larger vested interest in company performance.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #134 August 20, 2012 QuoteYou do realize that they don't actually pay the CEOs this amount. you do realize that DreamDancer doesn't care - it's not even close to the end game that he wants (destruction of personal wealth at ALL levels poor/middle/rich and the establishment of a pure nanny state) ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #135 August 20, 2012 Quote>If a basic algorithm in the machine is losing value year on year for decades then >it's time to do something about it. Agreed. Best get a faster/smaller/cheaper machine to do the same thing, so you stop losing money. People aren't machines. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #136 August 20, 2012 Quote>It's how I bought my first house. That was probably a good investment. In general houses appreciate in value. (Although taking out loans that you do not have a good plan for paying back can be a disaster, as we've seen over the past few years.) Wasn't that what 'flipping' was all about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkydiveJonathan 0 #137 August 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteNot for what it is intended for. It is not a "Living" wage, it is a "minimum", and it is pretty decent when applied as intended. If minimum wage is too low for those individuals, do like Bill pointed out, work harder, get the raise, get the education, make yourself worth more for, more pay. Matt Still no recognition that the minimum wage is set too low. There that help ya out some? Or is this what you want? IMO it is not too low. If it is not what you want to use it for, fine, still not too low, IMO. It is not meant a living wage, but a minimum wage. It is not that hard a concept to understand, or is it? Matt It's also meant to keep its value over time - which it obviously hasn't. So time to update the algorithm. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jinlee 0 #138 August 20, 2012 Quote>They should eat cake Only if it's cheap! Living within your means is a skill some people never learn (unfortunately.) Here is an example of how as an employer I cope with wage issues. I have 2 guys, one is in Bucharest, Romania and the other Cario, Egypt. I pay them via PayPal. For the job they preform there is no way I would be able to pay an American for the same skill set. As an example an American would need $2,500. These guy perform the same work, are eager to work and receive $500 to $600 for the same skill set. .... and here is the kicker, they are more skilled at what they do. Here is a quote QuoteVery few schools -- colleges included -- teach things like PHP, Web-based Java, UNIX-based environments, Javascript, even CSS/HTML. I interviewed several people over the course of last month and I can tell you this is true. I don't know what my applicants are studying in college but it doesn't apply in the real world. Unless a college student takes it upon themselves to educate themselves, what they are learning in college will be of no use upon graduation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #139 August 20, 2012 >People aren't machines. You are correct. Machines are all the same; it makes sense to apply the same rules to all machines of the same model. People are different, each with different skills, different work ethics and different abilities. It makes sense to pay them different amounts. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #140 August 20, 2012 QuoteWe are losing sight that "Minimum Wage" is not meant as a sole source for life's needs wage. It is an entry level pay scale, for high schooler's, as a supplemental source income for retirees, or one of several jobs. Can you cite a source for this or is this simply opinion?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #141 August 20, 2012 >Wasn't that what 'flipping' was all about? No, flipping is buying and selling houses quickly to cash in on a real estate bubble. Investing is buying something and holding onto it as it appreciates. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #142 August 20, 2012 >>We are losing sight that "Minimum Wage" is not meant as a sole source for life's needs wage. >Can you cite a source for this or is this simply opinion? From Wikipedia: =================== Living wage In public policy, a living wage or subsistence wage is the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet basic needs (for an extended period of time or for a lifetime). These needs include shelter (housing) and other incidentals such as clothing and nutrition. In some nations such as the United Kingdom and Switzerland, this standard generally means that a person working forty hours a week, with no additional income, should be able to afford a specified quality or quantity of housing, food, utilities, transport, health care, and recreation. In addition to this definition, living wage activists further define "living wage" as the wage equivalent to the poverty line for a family of four. The living wage differs from the minimum wage in that the latter is set by law and can fail to meet the requirements of a living wage - or is so low that borrowing or application for top-up benefits is necessary. ==================== Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #143 August 20, 2012 QuoteQuoteWe are losing sight that "Minimum Wage" is not meant as a sole source for life's needs wage. It is an entry level pay scale, for high schooler's, as a supplemental source income for retirees, or one of several jobs. Can you cite a source for this or is this simply opinion? Bill handled it. I think there has been confusion between the two, hence the discussions side trips at times. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #144 August 20, 2012 I read that Wiki page as being world-wide generic, not US specific. Now, I'm not exactly up on where the concept of minimum wage stems from, if that's ancient Egypt or modern US, but what I'm asking for are arguments used in favor or against it being set in such a way as stated by Matt as it specifically pertains to US law. Remember, what's normal and legal in one country, doesn't nessasarily apply to all. For instance the concept of freedom of speech or what constitutes torture. That's almost certainly true as well when talking about justification for setting wages in the US compared to anywhere else. Again, can anyone cite, or is Matt's statement simply opinion? To me it sounds like opinion rather than fact, but I'm open to be proven wrong.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #145 August 20, 2012 QuoteI read that Wiki page as being world-wide generic, not US specific. Now, I'm not exactly up on where the concept of minimum wage stems from, if that's ancient Egypt or modern US, but what I'm asking for are arguments used in favor or against it being set in such a way as stated by Matt as it specifically pertains to US law. Remember, what's normal and legal in one country, doesn't nessasarily apply to all. For instance the concept of freedom of speech or what constitutes torture. That's almost certainly true as well when talking about justification for setting wages in the US compared to anywhere else. Again, can anyone cite, or is Matt's statement simply opinion? To me it sounds like opinion rather than fact, but I'm open to be proven wrong. I too could be wrong, but I was always taught that minimum wage and living wage happened to be different , and one could even have two or three minimum wage jobs to meet living wage level. http://lafenty.hubpages.com/hub/Minimum-Wage-VS-Living-Wage MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #146 August 21, 2012 Yeah, my entire point is what was originally intended in the US. The article you cite mentions minimum wage originally being set at 86% of poverty level with it drifting downward considerably since then. If it has drifted downward from its original intent, it seems to me bringing it back to what was originally intended isn't too far out of line. Of course, that would require it being raised.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #147 August 21, 2012 >The article you cite mentions minimum wage originally being set at 86% of poverty level . . . Hmm. That would suggest it has never been meant as a way to support all of one's life needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #148 August 21, 2012 Quote>It's how I bought my first house. That was probably a good investment. In general houses appreciate in value. If you ignore inflation. Real house prices in America have been essentially flat for the last 60 years with periodic bubbles that inevitably revert to the mean because the real wages needed to buy homes are not increasing. Here's the Case-Shiller index adjusted for inflation through the end of 2011. Case-Shiller looks at resale prices for individual homes so it provides more useful information than other metrics like the median sales price which is distorted by things like the trend towards bigger homes (the average new home was 1400 square feet in 1970 and 2700 in 2009). Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #149 August 21, 2012 Quote>The article you cite mentions minimum wage originally being set at 86% of poverty level . . . Hmm. That would suggest it has never been meant as a way to support all of one's life needs. However, it does suggest it should be tied to something quantifiable as opposed to left to capricious whim and opinion of what may or may not be appropriate as a "starter" wage for teenagers and retirees.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DrewEckhardt 0 #150 August 21, 2012 Quote>The article you cite mentions minimum wage originally being set at 86% of poverty level . . . Hmm. That would suggest it has never been meant as a way to support all of one's life needs. With 98.2% of households (impoverished included) owning at least one television in 2005 it seems to support wants which should get filled after needs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
