Happy White People's Day

[Marinus 0]

Well spoken, informative and a clever way to shift the goal posts. I do especially like the subtle way you shortened the time since civil right were granted from almost 50 years to 35 years. Let's face it, the people who do remember segregation are almost all elders now, and they'll die out in the next couple of decades. It's about time to be over slavery and to get over segregation. It should be remembered but people who dwell on those things are a problem because they actively keep segregation alive.

I'm btw member of a severely discriminated group that was granted full civil rights only a mere decade ago. I'm over it, so guess how much consideration I have for people who bitch and whine about discrimination that happened before they were born.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Pigford v Glickman

How many more $Billions until white guilt is eased?

http://www.libertynewsonline.com/article_301_29166.php

It can never be erased because it's part of our history, silly.

I think that reading THIS BOOK might help you to better understand what the OP was trying to say.

[billvon 2,478]

>Still does not change that they created a system of govt that has lasted longer than
>most of the govts on this planet . . .

As governments go the US is very young. That's not a bad thing but it definitely hasn't lasted very long compared to some other big governments (Rome, England etc.)

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Well spoken, informative and a clever way to shift the goal posts. I do especially like the subtle way you shortened the time since civil right were granted from almost 50 years to 35 years. Let's face it, the people who do remember segregation are almost all elders now, and they'll die out in the next couple of decades. It's about time to be over slavery and to get over segregation. It should be remembered but people who dwell on those things are a problem because they actively keep segregation alive.

I'm btw member of a severely discriminated group that was granted full civil rights only a mere decade ago. I'm over it, so guess how much consideration I have for people who bitch and whine about discrimination that happened before they were born.

Well, it's easy for you, from the Netherlands, to tell us to "get over it" since you don't have to live here among people who not only haven't gotten over it, but still feel that the Civil Rights Act should be repealed.

[Marinus 0]

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Well, it's easy for you, from the Netherlands, to tell us to "get over it" since you don't have to live here among people who not only haven't gotten over it, but still feel that the Civil Rights Act should be repealed.

It's very ignorant of you to assume that we as a people (and I as person for that matter) never ever had to get over any injustice done to us. But apparently we're better at it than you are.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Well spoken, informative and a clever way to shift the goal posts. I do especially like the subtle way you shortened the time since civil right were granted from almost 50 years to 35 years. Let's face it, the people who do remember segregation are almost all elders now, and they'll die out in the next couple of decades. It's about time to be over slavery and to get over segregation. It should be remembered but people who dwell on those things are a problem because they actively keep segregation alive.

I'm btw member of a severely discriminated group that was granted full civil rights only a mere decade ago. I'm over it, so guess how much consideration I have for people who bitch and whine about discrimination that happened before they were born.

No clever shifting of goal posts, I was quite clear that I was referencing my thoughts when I was being told about the history of the university I work for when I started here, in 1996. It is true that another 16 years have passed, and many of those people will now be retired or deceased. Still, you'd perhaps be surprised how many senior administrators continue to work into their 70's.

I agree that the people who grew up with segregation and Jim Crow will die out in the next couple of decades. In the meantime, they are still here and they still have influence, especially in families and cultures that pay heed to the "wisdom" of their elders. This goes for both sides of the racial divide here in the US; for example some people who were at the front lines in the civil rights struggle (Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, etc) still see the world through the lens of the early 1960s, and they probably always will. It's kind of human nature, like people think the best music is inevitably the music that was popular when they were in their teens or early twenties. Like any revolutionary change, it won't be complete until the "old guard" is dead and gone and well buried.

I'm aware that you belong to a group that has suffered much discrimination; in this country that discrimination is very much still ongoing. I'm glad for you that you have been able to move past the resentment, I'm sure your life is much healthier for that. Unfortunately, for all its dynamism American culture is still very traditional and resistant to change. People complain when a little trace of color is added to the $5 bill. It's no surprise that this is the only major economy that hasn't gone Metric, Americans are still convinced that one day the rest of the world will switch to US miles. And in a country that claims to be centered on Christian values, most people are still incapable of forgiveness, which accounts for the unseemly enthusiasm for the death penalty. Cultural values are adhered to for no better reason than "that's the way it's always been". In such a society, change (even for the better) is always going to be slow. I completely agree it's well past time to stop dwelling on the past, but there's a lot of inertia build into the American view of the world.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Well, it's easy for you, from the Netherlands, to tell us to "get over it" since you don't have to live here among people who not only haven't gotten over it, but still feel that the Civil Rights Act should be repealed.

It's very ignorant of you to assume that we as a people (and I as person for that matter) never ever had to get over any injustice done to us. But apparently we're better at it than you are.

I made no such assumption about your people. I simply pointed out that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to what's really happening here in the US.

[Marinus 0]

Don't forget this is SC, it's sort of my moral duty to question your discussion techniques here.

While I was lucky to be born into a relatively progressive society, this was more or less neutralized by the fact that I was born into a orthodox Christian family. So I suffered my share of bigotry and hatred. I'll be the first to admit I still feel resentment because of that, I just try my best to not live by that resentment and become part of the vicious cycle.

Thanks for your very interesting post, btw.

[Marinus 0]

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I made no such assumption about your people. I simply pointed out that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to what's really happening here in the US.

Yeah, one group wronged another, and while things are corrected decades ago, there's still a lot of hurt feelings etc. everywhere. It's a rather common and understandable phenomenon but it will get you nowhere in the end. Better to team up with the people who want equality (of whatever ethnicity) against the bigots.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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I made no such assumption about your people. I simply pointed out that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to what's really happening here in the US.

Yeah, one group wronged another, and while things are corrected decades ago, there's still a lot of hurt feelings etc. everywhere. It's a rather common phenomena.

As far as what's left over here in the U.S., it's far more than just hurt feelings.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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***Better to team up with the people who want equality (of whatever ethnicity) against the bigots.

That's true. But the bigots here in the U.S. are constantly trying to rewrite history to make us forget that many of the wrongs have never been corrected. We've never had a reconciliation. They don't want one. On July Fourth, they patriotically worship the flag and watch fireworks and sing about freedom, then they become indignant when someone asks them, "if we're so free, then why is it that we have the highest per capita incarceration rate in the world?" Did you know that in 2008 approximately one in every 31 adults (7.3 million) in the United States was behind bars, or being monitored (probation and parole) and that 70% of them are non-whites?

America does have many reasons to celebrate the Declaration of Independence, but it's also necessary to face the truth. Apparently many of us don't like to be reminded of the truth on July Fourth. That's what this is about.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Has it occurred to you that we have more crime because people feel privileged and have a sense of entitlement that makes them feel more justified in committing a crime? Has it occurred to you that we have a huge illegal immigration problem and that criminals are pouring over our borders and joining street gangs? Has it occurred to you that we might just be better at arresting criminals?

Or are you saying that we falsely jail people at a higher rate than the rest of the world does?

[pirana 0]

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People are pissed off precisely because it is true and reminds them what a fucked up deal it was. People pretty much don't ever want to be reminded that the myths they hold dear are simply myths.

Not that they'll actually admit it.

A lot of our founding fathers were fucked up.

If you base your entire political belief system on dogmatic adherence to what they believed was right (I'm looking at you, Tea Party), then it kind of blows your theories out of the water when you're reminded how fucked up slavery was and how these same guys who are otherwise so seemingly faultless and sacrosanct when it comes to some issues, were completely and utterly in the wrong about something as basic as "all men are created equal."

Bottom line - very few people are more influential than the system in which they live. The way they lived was part of the system of the times. Otherwise, all men should feel horrible for being men because it took so long for women to get the rights they have and for the rights they still don't have in most places; all white people should feel terrible because their ancestors kept black slaves; all people of western European descent should feel terrible because of the imperialistic colonizing habits of their ancestors (and the continued efforts to impose their will on the rest of the world), and so on and so forth.

Whining, nothing but whining.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[ManagingPrime 0]

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Or are you saying that we falsely jail people at a higher rate than the rest of the world does?

I'm willing to bet that an argument could be made that more and more laws are added to the books every year that turn more and more americans into criminals.

Would also be willing to submit that there is selective enforcement of those laws.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Or are you saying that we falsely jail people at a higher rate than the rest of the world does?

I'm willing to bet that an argument could be made that more and more laws are added to the books every year that turn more and more americans into criminals.

Would also be willing to submit that there is selective enforcement of those laws.

So what crimes (other than the normal BS arguments about all these 1000's of people who are in jail for simple possesion of pot) are we jailing people for that they should be imprisoned for committing?

Selective enforcement does not create more criminals, it creates fewer.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Has it occurred to you that we have more crime because people feel privileged and have a sense of entitlement that makes them feel more justified in committing a crime?

Silly right-wing talking point. It's absolute nonsense.

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Has it occurred to you that we have a huge illegal immigration problem and that criminals are pouring over our borders and joining street gangs?

More unsubstantiated right wing nonsense. This just isn't true. No matter how much it's repeated.

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Has it occurred to you that we might just be better at arresting criminals?

That's funny. Yeah ... we're better at arresting minorities and putting them away.

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Or are you saying that we falsely jail people at a higher rate than the rest of the world does?

We selectively arrest more people who don't look like us.

We criminalized marijuana/hemp back in the bracero days in order to jail Mexicans and we came up with ridiculous sentences for crack cocaine users in order to jail black people. Currently we are dreaming up an "illegal immigration" problem in order to jail brown people and put them in concentration camps run by corporations who profit from detaining human beings in "tent camps". We use the "drug war" to selectively jail minorities.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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Or are you saying that we falsely jail people at a higher rate than the rest of the world does?

I'm willing to bet that an argument could be made that more and more laws are added to the books every year that turn more and more americans into criminals.

Would also be willing to submit that there is selective enforcement of those laws.

Exactly.

[Gravitymaster 0]

So you are saying we falsely arrest minorities and many who are in jail did nothing? Since many Police Officers are minorities, are you claiming they are part of this Grand Conspiracy to arrest other minorities? How does "the man" keep them silent?

[davjohns 1]

When I was in college, we discussed the fact that 70% of inmates were black. We discussed that 70% of crimes were committed by blacks. Made sense to me. Always confused me that people found the incarceration rate outrageous and only compared it to population size.

I did a quick search to see if the stats were still the same. I found this article: http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0514hm.html

Seems things haven't changed much. People still ignore the cause and effect of 'crime begets incarceration' and pretend that race is the problem.

I was a cop once. I later did criminal defense. I assure you that you have to work hard to get locked up for any length of time in Alabama. I have defended non-violent offenders on their sixth or seventh felony and had the prosecutor offer to extend their current probation with no negotiation necessary. Six or seven felonies and they have never seen the inside of a prison.

It is also true that every level of the system allows a chance to get out. The cop can give you a bye. The prosecutor can choose not to go after you. The judge can cut you loose. The jury can let you go. The appeals court can turn you loose. By the time you get to prison, it is highly unlikely that you haven't done anything. It is highly likely that you've done much more than what you were convicted of.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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So you are saying we falsely arrest minorities and many who are in jail did nothing? Since many Police Officers are minorities, are you claiming they are part of this Grand Conspiracy to arrest other minorities? How does "the man" keep them silent?

I don't think it's a grand conspiracy. It would be relatively easy to fix if that were the case. The problem is that we make too many laws that criminalize victimless activities. We give the police too much latitude in making arrests or detaining people. We allow racial profiling in too many situations. The list goes on. The net result is what we see in our prison population and in the huge number of American citizens who live in poverty with very little hope of getting out. The deck is stacked in favor of white, Christian, wealthy people in America. The evidence is all around us.

I can't possibly explain it to you here, of course. It took Tim Wise a couple of hundred pages in his book Dear White America: Letter to a new minority.

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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When I was in college, we discussed the fact that 70% of inmates were black. We discussed that 70% of crimes were committed by blacks. Made sense to me. Always confused me that people found the incarceration rate outrageous and only compared it to population size.

I did a quick search to see if the stats were still the same. I found this article: http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0514hm.html

Seems things haven't changed much. People still ignore the cause and effect of 'crime begets incarceration' and pretend that race is the problem.

I was a cop once. I later did criminal defense. I assure you that you have to work hard to get locked up for any length of time in Alabama. I have defended non-violent offenders on their sixth or seventh felony and had the prosecutor offer to extend their current probation with no negotiation necessary. Six or seven felonies and they have never seen the inside of a prison.

It is also true that every level of the system allows a chance to get out. The cop can give you a bye. The prosecutor can choose not to go after you. The judge can cut you loose. The jury can let you go. The appeals court can turn you loose. By the time you get to prison, it is highly unlikely that you haven't done anything. It is highly likely that you've done much more than what you were convicted of.

OK. So you are basically saying that blacks and minorities in the U.S. commit most of the crimes and that is why they make up the majority of the prison population. It's a circular argument. The important question, that is not addressed is WHY? Don't you think that as patriotic Americans we should be alarmed?

Do you believe that blacks and latinos in America are innately predisposed to criminal activity?

(That article you quoted is long-winded way to beg the question )

[davjohns 1]

It is not a circular argument. It is cause and effect. The cause of higher minority percentages in prison is that higher percentages of minorities are committing crimes. To be a circular argument, high minority percentages in prison would have to lead back to higher minorities committing crimes.

However, you are correct that this cause and effect begs the question; what is causing the higher minority participation in crime to begin with?

I cannot agree that the minority is inherently prone to ciminal behavior. There is no support for that argument other than the results. Results leading one to argue cause suggests crazy things like; breathing leads to death. One does precede the other often, but there is no causal relationship.

I suspect there is a cultural element that provides a greater level of acceptance for criminal behavior in some inner city minority environments. I think an entitlement mentality can lead to frustration that could justify criminal behavior. There also seems to be some media glorification of gang/drug/criminal activity that surely has an effect. Those are just off the top of my head. No research involved. I suspect an objective answer would be very hard to find. It seems to me that most researchers set out to prove their pre-conceived notions and this case would be prime for that sort of conduct.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[Rstanley0312 1]

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When I was in college, we discussed the fact that 70% of inmates were black. We discussed that 70% of crimes were committed by blacks. Made sense to me. Always confused me that people found the incarceration rate outrageous and only compared it to population size.

I did a quick search to see if the stats were still the same. I found this article: http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0514hm.html

Seems things haven't changed much. People still ignore the cause and effect of 'crime begets incarceration' and pretend that race is the problem.

I was a cop once. I later did criminal defense. I assure you that you have to work hard to get locked up for any length of time in Alabama. I have defended non-violent offenders on their sixth or seventh felony and had the prosecutor offer to extend their current probation with no negotiation necessary. Six or seven felonies and they have never seen the inside of a prison.

It is also true that every level of the system allows a chance to get out. The cop can give you a bye. The prosecutor can choose not to go after you. The judge can cut you loose. The jury can let you go. The appeals court can turn you loose. By the time you get to prison, it is highly unlikely that you haven't done anything. It is highly likely that you've done much more than what you were convicted of.

OK. So you are basically saying that blacks and minorities in the U.S. commit most of the crimes and that is why they make up the majority of the prison population. It's a circular argument. The important question, that is not addressed is WHY? Don't you think that as patriotic Americans we should be alarmed?

Do you believe that blacks and latinos in America are innately predisposed to criminal activity?

(That article you quoted is long-winded way to beg the question )

No not really because the premise is sound even if you do not think it is.... do I thin they are predisposed to crime... no. Do I think how they are raised and the culture they live in makes them more likely to commit crime.... yes sadly. The more they live on handouts the worse it will get. The repressing is being done by the enablers.

Life is all about ass....either you're kicking it, kissing it, working it off, or trying to get a piece of it.
Muff Brother #4382 Dudeist Skydiver #000
www.fundraiseadventure.com

[headoverheels 292]

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I have defended non-violent offenders on their sixth or seventh felony and had the prosecutor offer to extend their current probation with no negotiation necessary. Six or seven felonies and they have never seen the inside of a prison.

Were they black?

[ChangoLanzao 0]

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No not really because the premise is sound even if you do not think it is.... do I thin they are predisposed to crime... no. Do I think how they are raised and the culture they live in makes them more likely to commit crime.... yes sadly. The more they live on handouts the worse it will get. The repressing is being done by the enablers.

I've heard this argument before. It is thoroughly unconvincing, randian nonsense.

The poor are in this situation because they are lazy and take advantage of handouts given them by the "enablers" .

It still begs the question.

You think blacks and latinos are innately lazy because of their culture. Otherwise, there would be just as many whites in the same situation. Why don't white people also take just as much advantage of the "enablers"? Is it because they are not innately lazy and stupid like the blacks and latinos? Is that what you think?

Your premise is either racist or just simply wrong.