ACA upheld

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>Freeloaders dont pay taxes

Then they go to jail and don't freeload on ER's any more.

They go to jail and then get free medical and 3 squares a day

Now that will make a real difference huh......

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[billvon 2,400]

>They go to jail and then get free medical and 3 squares a day

Correct! Just like any other criminal. Thus removing the deadbeats clogging up the ER's.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

The whole "broccoli" argument seems to me to indicate either a lack of understanding of the ACA, or a deliberate and disingenuous attempt to mislead. Broccoli is a very specific item; the appropriate comparison to broccoli would be a law that required everyone, male or female, to purchase a mammogram (or some other very specific medical procedure) every year. The law doesn't do that. Similarly, requiring that you buy your food only from Safeway would be comparable to requiring you to buy insurance from a specific insurer, say Blue Cross for example, and the law doesn't do that either. A defensible position might be to compare the "individual mandate" to buying food in general. Currently, we have a health care system that allows those who could afford health insurance to choose to spend their money elsewhere, knowing that of they get sick enough they can go to the hospital and be treated (sufficient to save their lives), and stick everyone who does have insurance with the bill. This is not very different than someone who would prefer to spend their money on skydives, then goes to the grocery store, gets what they need, and hand me the bill on their way back to the drop zone. Many (I suspect most) of us have a problem with having people who are really in need either starving or dying/suffering permanent disability due to a treatable condition, so as a society we choose to provide some level of "safety net". But, everyone would be pissed as hell to be handed a grocery bill by someone who then goes out to the parking lot and hops into a Lexus and drives off. Having the ability to purchase health care insurance, and choosing not to, puts everyone else in the position of either picking up the tab when they get sick/injured, stiffing the medical professionals who treat them, or having to stand around and watch people who have had a run of bad luck (for example, surviving cancer but finding themselves uninsurable when they relapse) die if they can't afford the treatment out-of-pocket. Currently as a society we opt for the first choice, which often also involves the second, but there's no shortage of people who it seems would be perfectly happy with the third choice.

Anyway, if you think the government is over-reaching you have the option to support a party whose whole platform is to reign in the "over-reaching", at least when it comes to those who work for a paycheck. Of course, then you also get a government that tells you who you can marry, and what you can and can't do with your own body (well, especially if you're female), but life is full of choices.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>They go to jail and then get free medical and 3 squares a day

Correct! Just like any other criminal. Thus removing the deadbeats clogging up the ER's.

Saves a lot of tax dollars then?

So the freeloaders will cost us even more tax dollars

Brilliant!

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Southern_Man 0]

Quote

Currently, we have a health care system that allows those who could afford health insurance to choose to spend their money elsewhere, knowing that of they get sick enough they can go to the hospital and be treated (sufficient to save their lives), and stick everyone who does have insurance with the bill.

Right, we have a broken system created by excess government regulation so we are going to fix it by means of more government regulation.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[billvon 2,400]

>Saves a lot of tax dollars then?

Yes. Most people prefer to not go to prison, which is why it works as a deterrent. (But if you really want those three square meals and free healthcare in a prime location - go for it. Just refuse to pay your taxes. You'll kill two birds with one stone!)

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>Saves a lot of tax dollars then?

Yes. Most people prefer to not go to prison, which is why it works as a deterrent. (But if you really want those three square meals and free healthcare in a prime location - go for it. Just refuse to pay your taxes. You'll kill two birds with one stone!)

CBO states MORE people will be without HC because of this law

Freeloaders dont pay

Taxes and costs are going up as they already have

Send to jail if you want to
Freeloaders still dont pay

Pay me now
or

Pay me MORE later

Great solution

Supporters should be proud

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[GeorgiaDon 340]

Quote

Quote

Currently, we have a health care system that allows those who could afford health insurance to choose to spend their money elsewhere, knowing that of they get sick enough they can go to the hospital and be treated (sufficient to save their lives), and stick everyone who does have insurance with the bill.

Right, we have a broken system created by excess government regulation so we are going to fix it by means of more government regulation.

By "excess government regulation", do you mean (or include) EMTALA? A former student of mine trained and worked as an EMT (he thought it would help hime get into medical school, and I think it did eventually). I asked him how much time EMTs spend searching a car accident scene to locate wallets/purses/ID/insurance cards before transporting injured people to the hospital. He said none, if those things are missing then the police will find them and bring them along later. Similarly, when they respond to a 911 call about a heart attack, they don't search the patient's house to see if they can find proof of insurance, they transport and leave it to family members to bring insurance info.

Imagine a scenario where a family member is in an accident, they're critically injured and in the accident their purse was thrown from the car and is in the ditch. They get to the hospital but are refused treatment because they don't have proof of insurance, and die, despite you having faithfully paid the insurance premiums every month. No EMTALA, no obligation to treat. Literally, every year thousands of insured people would be refused treatment and die or suffer worse consequences than they otherwise would have, just because they arrive at the hospital before their insurance info does.

Sure, some people use EMTALA to game the system. But what would you do to replace it, that wouldn't also lead to the scenario I described?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[airdvr 197]

Quote

>Freeloaders dont pay taxes

Then they go to jail and don't freeload on ER's any more.

Do you really believe that?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[billvon 2,400]

>Do you really believe that?

Do I believe that people in jail don't freeload on ER's any more? Yes.

Do I believe that people who don't pay their taxes eventually go to jail? Yes. (Big fines are more commonplace, but if you don't pay them either, you go to jail.)

[airdvr 197]

Quote

>Saves a lot of tax dollars then?

Yes. Most people prefer to not go to prison, which is why it works as a deterrent. (But if you really want those three square meals and free healthcare in a prime location - go for it. Just refuse to pay your taxes. You'll kill two birds with one stone!)

The people you are referring to don't have taxable income, and pay no taxes..Why would they care?

Please don't dent the planet.

Destinations by Roxanne

[normiss 622]

Free food and free healthcare!
I like it!

[billvon 2,400]

>CBO states MORE people will be without HC because of this law

Bullshit. From their latest report:

============
Compared with prior law, the ACA is now estimated by CBO and JCT to reduce the number of nonelderly people without health insurance coverage by 30 million to 33 million in 2016 and subsequent years, leaving 26 million to 27 million nonelderly residents uninsured in those years (see Table 3 at the end of the report). The share of legal nonelderly residents with insurance is projected to rise from 82 percent in 2012 to 93 percent in 2016 and subsequent years. That share rose to 95 percent in CBO and JCT's previous estimate.

According to the current estimates, from 2016 on, between 20 million and 23 million people will receive coverage through the new insurance exchanges, and 16 million to 17 million additional people will be enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP as a result of ACA. Also, 3 million to 5 million fewer people will have coverage through an employer compared with the number under prior law.
============

Is this that right winger math again? Or perhaps you were listening to Rush Limbaugh and he quoted one line from the report, like:

"ACA is now estimated by CBO and JCT to reduce the number of nonelderly people . . .health insurance coverage by 30 million . . . "

" . . . More are expected to be uninsured. . . ."

" . . . 3 million to 5 million fewer people will have coverage . . . ."

[normiss 622]

Quote

Yes. Most people prefer to not go to prison, which is why it works as a deterrent.

If this is true, why the skyrocketing increase in jail population.
More so when you consider the increase of additional layered laws.

I call bullshit.

[mnealtx 0]

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the appropriate comparison to broccoli would be a law that required everyone, male or female, to purchase a mammogram (or some other very specific medical procedure) every year. The law doesn't do that.

Coverage for mammograms is part of the required package...even if you're a single male.

Quote

Of course, then you also get a government that tells you who you can marry, and what you can and can't do with your own body (well, especially if you're female),

Like MyPlate and the Bloomy drink bans, you mean?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[normiss 622]

THEY won't.

The rest of us will when we cover the costs.
The costs that were moved from the healthcare and/or taxes and/or penalties columns to the corrections column.

It's a different section of government which allows the numbers to show a reduction in healthcare costs.

I love/hate statistics. They work just like a massage parlor.
Happy ending depends on how you rub them.

[billvon 2,400]

>If this is true, why the skyrocketing increase in jail population.

Primarily because of the skyrocketing increase in tough sentencing laws and number of drug laws. Empty baggie? Three strikes, you're out! Secondarily due to incarceration of illegal immigrants.

Are you really going to tell me that prison population is going up because people like it there?

[rushmc 18]

Quote

>CBO states MORE people will be without HC because of this law

Bullshit. From their latest report:

============
Compared with prior law, the ACA is now estimated by CBO and JCT to reduce the number of nonelderly people without health insurance coverage by 30 million to 33 million in 2016 and subsequent years, leaving 26 million to 27 million nonelderly residents uninsured in those years (see Table 3 at the end of the report). The share of legal nonelderly residents with insurance is projected to rise from 82 percent in 2012 to 93 percent in 2016 and subsequent years. That share rose to 95 percent in CBO and JCT's previous estimate.

According to the current estimates, from 2016 on, between 20 million and 23 million people will receive coverage through the new insurance exchanges, and 16 million to 17 million additional people will be enrolled in Medicaid and CHIP as a result of ACA. Also, 3 million to 5 million fewer people will have coverage through an employer compared with the number under prior law.
============

Is this that right winger math again? Or perhaps you were listening to Rush Limbaugh and he quoted one line from the report, like:

"ACA is now estimated by CBO and JCT to reduce the number of nonelderly people . . .health insurance coverage by 30 million . . . "

" . . . More are expected to be uninsured. . . ."

" . . . 3 million to 5 million fewer people will have coverage . . . ."

CBO say higher taxes and more uninsured

I guess I didnt know that the CBO was considered right winger? Or is that just a projection?

http://cbo.gov/publication/43076

Full text here

http://cbo.gov/sites/default/files/cbofiles/attachments/03-13-Coverage%20Estimates.pdf

Quote

CBO and JCT now estimate that the insurance coverage provisions of the ACA will have a net cost of just under $1.1 trillion over the 2012–2021 period—about $50 billion less than the agencies’ March 2011 estimate for that 10-year period (see Table 1, following the text).3 The net costs reflect:
■ Gross additional costs of $1.5 trillion for Medicaid, the Children’s Health

Quote

CBO and JCT’s projections of health insurance coverage have also changed since last March. Fewer people are now expected to obtain health insurance coverage from their employer or in insurance exchanges; more are now expected to obtain coverage from Medicaid or CHIP or from nongroup or other sources. More are expected to be uninsured. The extent of the changes varies from year to year, but in 2016, for example, the ACA is now estimated to reduce the number of people receiving health insurance coverage through an employer by an additional 4 million enrollees relative to the March 2011 projections. In that year, CBO and JCT now estimate that there will be 2 million fewer enrollees in insurance exchanges. In the other direction, CBO and JCT now estimate that, in 2016, the ACA will increase enrollment in Medicaid and CHIP slightly more than previously estimated (but considerably more in 2014 and 2015), and it will reduce the number of people with nongroup or other coverage by 3 million less and the number of uninsured people by 2 million less than previously estimated.

Maybe they are just right wing when you dont agree with them

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 622]

No way - we all know better than that.

The general disregard for laws and lawful behavior is another topic entirely.

There will always bee a willful and criminal disregard of laws by some of the population.
No matter how many laws and penalties we add to it.

Which generally seems to have the inconvenient result of having more impact on innocent/non-intentional offenders.

There are already HUGE consequences to not paying your bills. Poor people generally don't care. They can't. They accept the result of being poor because there are no other options. Like a lot of people without healthcare policies. They cannot afford them. Period.

[SkyDekker 1,123]

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Coverage for mammograms is part of the required package...even if you're a single male.

And some single men are referred for mammograms. Men do get breast cancer.

[normiss 622]

The plan better cover contraception for us men too.

Catholics too!

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

So you like tax dollars going directly to private insurance companies?

Rather more than I like my tax dollars going to defense contractors or to bail out millionaire bankers, or to subsidize wealthy farmers.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

So you were full of sh1t when you claimed the biggest tax increase ever. Situation normal.

Do you know how much these 10 taxes will cost you?

1. Hospital Insurance Tax. Beginning in 2013, Obamacare increases the Hospital Insurance (HI) portion of the payroll tax from 2.9 percent to 3.8 percent for families earning more than $250,000 a year and for single filers earning more than $200,000 annually. The increased HI tax is also applied to investment income for the first time. The 3.8 percent surtax on investment income is the most economically damaging tax in Obamacare. And these tax increases won’t remain just on families making more than $250,000 a year for long. As the JEC explains, this tax is not indexed to inflation: “This means that in just 10 years from now, the so-called ‘high-income’ thresholds will have effectively ratcheted down to $152,000 and $190,000 in today’s dollars.” This tax increase amounts to $210 billion between 2013 and 2019.

Effect on me - ZERO

2. Mandate Penalties. In 2014, Obamacare’s individual and employer mandates go into effect, forcing individuals to purchase coverage and employers to offer coverage to their workers. The penalties paid in association with these mandates are an estimated $65 billion between 2014 and 2019.

Effect on me - ZERO

3. Health Insurance Provider Fee. Starting in 2014, Obamacare imposes an annual fee on health insurance providers based on each company’s share of the total market. This totals a $60 billion tax hike between 2014 and 2019.

Effect on me - most like ZERO to NOT MUCH

4. “Cadillac” Tax. In 2018, Obamacare puts a new 40 percent excise tax on “Cadillac” health plans, meaning plans that cost more than $10,200 for an individual and $27,500 for families. However, this tax is not indexed to medical inflation, causing it to eventually tax “Honda” plans at this rate as well. The JEC points out that “[t]he bulk of revenues from the ‘Cadillac’ tax would not be paid by platinum health insurance plans, but rather by employees who are forced to exchange tax-free health insurance benefits for taxable wages after employers reduce or eliminate health insurance.” This tax amounts to $32 billion in higher taxes in the first two years of its implementation.

Effect on me - ZERO

5. Prescription Drug Fees. Since 2011, Obamacare has put an annual fee on manufacturers and importers of branded drugs based on each individual company’s share of the total market. Between 2011 and 2019, this will amount to a $27 billion tax increase.

Effect on me - ZERO to NOT MUCH

6. Ethanol Tax. In 2010, Obamacare excluded ethanol from the existing cellulosic biofuel producer tax credit. This will hike taxes $24 billion from 2010–2019.

GOOD

7. Medical Device Tax. Beginning in 2013, Obamacare imposes a 2.3 percent excise tax on medical device manufacturers. This will raise taxes on patients needing medical devices, who will ultimately pay the tax through higher prices, by $20 billion from 2013 to 2019.

Effect on me - ZERO to NOT MUCH

8. Business Regulation Costs. Beginning in 2012, Obamacare raises corporate taxes through stricter enforcement, because businesses will be required to report more information on their business activities. This will raise taxes $17 billion from 2012 to 2019.

GOOD - I detest individuals or corporations who evade taxes by underreporting. Probably a net benefit to me

9. Reducing Medical Deductions. In 2013, Obamacare raises the floor on itemized medical deductions from 7.5 percent of adjusted gross income to 10 percent, meaning Americans must spend 2.5 percent more of their income before they get a medical deduction, costing $15 billion from 2013 to 2019.

Effect on me - ZERO


10. FSA Limits. Starting in 2014, Obamacare limits the amount of pre-tax dollars that taxpayers can deposit in flexible savings accounts (FSAs) to $2,500 a year. This results in an extra $13 billion in taxes from 2014 to 2019.

Effect on me - ZERO

Thanks for documenting how little extra this costs me (and almost certainly you too) in exchange for bringing the USA in line with the rest of the western world. In fact I may be better off.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

The whole "broccoli" argument seems to me to indicate either a lack of understanding of the ACA, or a deliberate and disingenuous attempt to mislead.
Don

DING DING DING - WE HAVE A WINNER.

And clearly it worked, as we see from rushmc's and airdivrs posts.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,625]

Quote

Quote

>Saves a lot of tax dollars then?

Yes. Most people prefer to not go to prison, which is why it works as a deterrent. (But if you really want those three square meals and free healthcare in a prime location - go for it. Just refuse to pay your taxes. You'll kill two birds with one stone!)

CBO states MORE people will be without HC because of this law

NO, It does NOT.

Quote

Supporters should be proud

Yes, we are.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.