Disturbing

[aphid 0]

Amidst all the noise about Occupy Whatever, Romney vs/Obama, tax cuts vs increases, Fox vs MSNBC, I hope news like this motivates you and yours to be serious about supporting your soldiers. They could use it...

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/06/07/us-soldier-suicide-war.html

John

[GQ_jumper 4]

You want an honest opinion, so everyone here who has never served can piss all over it while proclaiming their expertise?

For all the soldiers that HAVE been deployed, shutting down the wars is crushing. All my guys are on edge, and have been so for the last year since we came home. I get complaints every day about not doing anything and needing to find another fight. After 10 years of fighting its part of our culture now and we need to find a purpose in life.

Believe it or not life is simple when you are deployed, for combat MOSs at least. All we have to do is survive which is a basic human instinct. When we come home all the stress of the "real-world" gets to us. Every time I've ever redeployed I've disappeared for a couple days or weeks and not talked to anyone until I got my head back on straight.

Might be different for support soldiers who spend the majority of their time inside the wire though. I had the misfortune of living on a well established compound my last trip to the box and it was like living in a reality TV show/high school. Everyone on the base knew each others business, and it was rumor central. I dated someone on the base and everyone in the area knew who I was with and how things were going with us, so that just added in another set of stressors that different people cope with in different ways. So I can understand how that transition can be a rough one too.

Either way its a different world over there, and coming home and having to adjust to a life that doesn't involve doing what we signed up for, and making all the extra money we make during deployments is rough. I feel like my career no longer has a purpose because I don't have a deployment on the horizon, whereas I remember a few years ago when I spent more time in the middle east than I did at home. 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks. Don't tell my wife I said that of course

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[aphid 0]

Thank you for your candid reflection. In my country we are currently having a debate about the budget for specific new military hardware. I'm of the opinion that we could shelve just one F-35 jet and pay for every bit of assistance our soldiers might require after returning from a hostile environment.

I hope your civilian friends repeatedly express their gratitude and support for your service.

[Skyrad 0]

Best post I've read in a long time.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[lawrocket 3]

As a former REMF Army Officer who never deployed, I very much appreciate what you have to say. Thank you for writing that.

I also have the impression that while the effect may be the greatest for those in the combat arms, it is by no means limited to them. It's been described to me by many as being that life there had some structure and some purpose.

At the end of First Blood, Rambo has a lot to say. While it takes a few listens to get through Stallone's slavering incoherence, he said about the war that "you don't just turn it off." And that he could do things there, be in charge of equipment and back here he couldn't even keep a job parking cars.

It's generally been seen that there IS a hard time adjusting. Coming back home nothing is the same. Joe Snuffy comes back from 14 months away and it isn't the same. Maybe he's married, and his wife and kids have learned to get by without him. He used to mow the lawn - kids do it now. He used to manage home repairs. The wife has gotten pretty nifty with a hammer and drill now. He used to prepare dinner? Not anymore.

Everything's different. And back in this world, he's not among people that he trusts his very ass with. There's been described to me as a clarity and an order to things when deployed. You can't ever find it again.

I came up when there were still plenty of old NCOs from Vietnam. I learned how to be an officer by buying them beer and listening to them tell stories (I learned from them describing people fucking up and, goodness, those lessons came in handy). And as they got to know me better they talked. They'd had 20-25 years to make sense of it. Said one, "I've just gotten better. I always miss it."

Suicide prevention was always a big issue that leadership stressed when I was in. I don't know about the last ten years (man, ten YEARS!) but it was a huge thing then.

I hope that they can come to some solutions with it because it's a shame. I'm so very glad an fortunate that I don't understand it.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[GQ_jumper 4]

I tried to write the paragraph about non combat arms MOSs in a non-disparaging manner, but I honestly just don't understand what it must be like to live inside the wire for 15 months. My fourth trip over I spent a LOT of time on the FOB, far more than I would have liked because I was in charge of company operations that trip. And it was a very unique(terrible!) experience. It felt like my life was under a microscope all the time, which is why I likened it to a combination of high school and a reality show.

Either way though, inside or outside the wire you are spot on with your assessment about how difficult it is when you realize that the world didn't stop turning in your absence. Everything is different, people have new stories that don't involved you, there are new inside jokes in your circle of friends and family that you aren't privy to, and the worst thing for me was always the IDF alarms. Strangely enough the indirect fire alert system on the FOB was an identical sound to the alarm tone on the iPhone, so anytime somebody would set an alarm I'd jump, and people who haven't been there didn't understand. After my second trip my mom stopped trying so hard to spend time with me after deployments. My parents would always come to see me return since I am stationed close to home, we would get dinner together and she would just say, "call when you're ready to visit" and would leave me alone for a month because she knew I was going to disappear. Turning the switch on is easy, and I hate to liken myself to Rambo, but flipping it off is near impossible. Of course he was an SF operator so I guess it works!

And in response to Aphid, yes my friends do express their gratitude at every opportunity, sometimes to the point of making me uncomfortable. I go out with friends and I feel like I'm a war hero in the middle of a parade which is nice at times, but I'm also hesitant to accept because there have been far greater warriors who have done braver things and sacrificed more in combat than I have. Its still nice to have such supportive friends though.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[nanook 1]

+1

you can never come home.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[GQ_jumper 4]

Quote

+1

you can never come home.

Don't threaten me with a good time!

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[RonD1120 58]

Quote

You want an honest opinion, so everyone here who has never served can piss all over it while proclaiming their expertise?

For all the soldiers that HAVE been deployed, shutting down the wars is crushing. All my guys are on edge, and have been so for the last year since we came home. I get complaints every day about not doing anything and needing to find another fight. After 10 years of fighting its part of our culture now and we need to find a purpose in life.

Believe it or not life is simple when you are deployed, for combat MOSs at least. All we have to do is survive which is a basic human instinct. When we come home all the stress of the "real-world" gets to us. Every time I've ever redeployed I've disappeared for a couple days or weeks and not talked to anyone until I got my head back on straight.

Might be different for support soldiers who spend the majority of their time inside the wire though. I had the misfortune of living on a well established compound my last trip to the box and it was like living in a reality TV show/high school. Everyone on the base knew each others business, and it was rumor central. I dated someone on the base and everyone in the area knew who I was with and how things were going with us, so that just added in another set of stressors that different people cope with in different ways. So I can understand how that transition can be a rough one too.

Either way its a different world over there, and coming home and having to adjust to a life that doesn't involve doing what we signed up for, and making all the extra money we make during deployments is rough. I feel like my career no longer has a purpose because I don't have a deployment on the horizon, whereas I remember a few years ago when I spent more time in the middle east than I did at home. 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks. Don't tell my wife I said that of course

Thank you for your service and for the candid post.


We worked so very hard in the 80's to get services for the Vietnam vets. By the beginning of the 90's we had a handle on the problems. Not a perfect system by any means but at least we were curbing the stateside self-destruction without drugging the vet into oblivion.

Now, with the GWOT vets we seem to be back to square one. Counseling groups are not effective or they are not being utilized.

As a former group leader, we say the power is in the group. The members will pull themselves up. It is called the therapeutic milieu. The band of brothers must stick together to survive. Death is as real in the states as it is in the box or down range. Watch each other's six. Vietnam vets have a saying, Together Then, Together Again.

Whatever you have to deal with here, one of your buddies is dealing with the same thing. You guys figured it out over there, you can figure it out here.

I belong to the VVA and the Patriot Guard Riders. We are survivors and we are willing to share the secrets. Seek us out, we are all over the country.

Look for the shiny things of God revealed by the Holy Spirit. They only last for an instant but it is a Holy Instant. Let your soul absorb them.

[davjohns 1]

I am inclined to agree. Returning home was much more disruptive to mental balance than the time in theater. We are well prepared for what we will face when we hit the sand. Life in the box hits a pace and we are good with it. Then, we return to our families and are a bit lost. I've been back over two years and I still feel it.

We understand our enemy and our mission. Life outside of war is far more complex. We start longing for the simplicity of US v. THEM.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[jimmytavino 16]

sadly , your subject wording is perfect for the topic... i took the time to read the entire link, alll the way to the last paragraph, to be sure. These losses of life are among active duty. and don't include honorably discharged veterans. and at home reservists..ANd it's just for the first 155 days of the year,,, 200+ more days to go. GQ_jumper...your post is frank, and sensible and i believe it to be accurate. Because of our volunteer only Armed Services, there is little doubt that those joining, do so with great Patriotism, Energy and a desire to Step UP... Our ( those who have never served ) ( of whom i am One, BUT .... NOT as you describe......"proclaiming ANY sort of expertise"...)...Our gratitude to these men and women of strength and character, who absolutely "take up the battle" on behalf of the USA... should be unquestioned.... Respect for and "smart and maximum utilization " of, returning troops, is a win - win for everyone... When consdering returning Vets, We're talking about well trained people who know how to work together, can understand the intricacies of a complex project, and can fully envision the way their team can accomplish it,,,,and ( UNLIKE much of the Private sector,,, and certainly UNLIKE our local state and federal Governments!!!! ) CAN go out, and GET stuff Done...How more more evidence of THAT, than multiple tours of Duty,,,,,, do we need?? I long ago learned that some guy in a suit, with a big-deal college degree or multiple diplomas, but who NEVER had it tough,,, doesn't always compare , to the guys in the trenches. the clock punchers. the skilled tradesmen and other folks of simple means,,,, which builds solid character..Don't always judge a mans integrity by his attire.....but i digress..... Can't states and counties create teams to do Local projects, like property rehabilitations,,, Like taking vacant homes and buildings, and re-working them to house..... OH i dunno,,, Maybe Homeless Vets?? or Homeless FAMILIES????? create a REAL sense of community, where residents and School children, can SEE these Teams in action... and can SEE the houses and buildings restored.... Man, 10 Gallons of paint!!!! can do wonders... Every city in this country has vacant, abandoned, deteriorating properties. Many now belong to one govt. entity or another, through neglect of the last owner regarding payment of property taxes.. So go through neighborhoods, identify the houses which should be Knocked Down.... Salvage, anything from Fancy Moldings, to doors, useable fixtures to windows, strip the copper,,,, ( before the desperate residents of the neighbohood get there ) and then Use those components to re-work the places that ARE still in good shape.. I bet an Army Soldier who ran a tank crew,,,, can certainly operate the type of excavator that would help in such demolition... and working with a Crew,,, which is a long lost art, in most cases can result in a TON of work getting done in a short amount of time. Then you truck in some topsoil, to that "now vacant " lot, and allow folks in the Local community, to "GASP" !! Grow a vegetable garden !!! win Win Mostly you create a sense of need, of inclusion, in everyone, especially those who ARE having a tough time, for whom there is no job, awaiting their return and sometimes, no family..........You enlist these talented people to do what they CAN... with immediate noticable Visible evidence, everywhere...

One of the BEST posts here so far , has been the idea of NOT building, Just ONE F 35........in order to steer That funding, toward a much more beneficial result.. The well being of those who made it possible for the pontificators, politicians, CEOs and wall street Big Shots,,,, to carry on, as in the past, (seemingly turning a blind eye on those who have served, making THEIR way of life possible ) is of far greater importance than the stock value of McDonnel Douglas Lockheed MArtin... etc etc.... as for the pentagon?????? that over bloated bastian of spending and bureaucracy ... well THEIR "projection" of 136.2 suicides.... just goes to show how FAAAAR out of reality THEY are... Can someone tell me what Two tenths of a soldier is????... OH wait... i KNOW... it's equal to 100 % of most elected officials..

jmy

[grimmie 173]

John, as you know one of my organizations I try to support as much financialy as I can is the DAV (Disabled American Veterans). It irks me to no end how much people love to post their military memes on facebook and put thier "I support the troops" bumper stickers on their cars, but don't give a dime to any of the veteran's organizations.
Here in San Diego I have had the pleasure of meeting some wonderful men and women at the Navy Hospital. When you see the men and women there and the personal, physical and mental sacrifices they made, it is very humbling.
Thanks you for your service guys.
I urge all of you to donate what you can to a veteran's organization. They deserve our help.

[TriGirl 268]

Quote

I dated someone on the base and everyone in the area knew who I was with and how things were going with us, so that just added in another set of stressors that different people cope with in different ways... 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks. Don't tell my wife I said that of course

Are these the same person? If so, I'd imagine she could relate.

See the upside, and always wear your parachute! -- Christopher Titus

Shut Up & Jump!

[tkhayes 126]

Quote

Either way its a different world over there, and coming home and having to adjust to a life that doesn't involve doing what we signed up for, and making all the extra money we make during deployments is rough. I feel like my career no longer has a purpose because I don't have a deployment on the horizon, whereas I remember a few years ago when I spent more time in the middle east than I did at home. 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks.

we trained you to deploy and fight wars - we can also un-train/re-train you to do something else. Too bad no one budgeted for that....

[wmw999 2,121]

I don't think it's that easy. You condition someone to a life where things are black and white and high-adrenaline a lot of the time. You give them either: lots of autonomy, or a really clear-cut chain of command.

Then after they've done this for awhile, you send them into a world where everything is gray, and things aren't as exciting. It's kind of like taking up golf for a sport when you've been a skydiver all your life. Works for some people, not at all for others.

They have to (just as some skydivers have to quit due to life-altering injuries), but it never feels the same again.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[tkhayes 126]

agree that it is difficult - I never said it wasn't.

But the other extremem is that we built killing machines and therefore we must continue to use them as killing machines forever.

and that is rubbish.

it costs money. Politicians start wars and look at salaries equipment and the cost of bullets. That is about it. If we brought them all home, closed half the military bases around the world, we would have a military budget that could easily afford the re-education and treatment that these people need.

Or we can just forget it and hope the problem goes away

[wmw999 2,121]

Both of the posters in this thread are functioning very successfully in the "real" world. This dialog is really more of a lens through which we can view the people who don't adapt as successfully, and possibly help them to find solutions to their own issues.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[davjohns 1]

I'm not sure how well different people adapt. It still confuses me that I slept fine over there. Rocket attacks only annoyed me because I had to get up and let someone know I wasn't dead. IEDs and small arms fire were just something that delayed me from doing what I needed to; kind of like a flat tire. Once I got back, I started waking up in the middle of the night in a dead panic with no idea why. It makes no sense.

I've talked to other people. It seems to happen to varying degrees to most. We don't talk about it much. It's just something you live with. Makes me wonder about some people who aren't talking...

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Quote

Quote

I dated someone on the base and everyone in the area knew who I was with and how things were going with us, so that just added in another set of stressors that different people cope with in different ways... 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks. Don't tell my wife I said that of course

Are these the same person? If so, I'd imagine she could relate.

Nice try but I wasn't married during my last deployment. The woman I am now married to and I were dating prior to the deployment and had a falling out due in absolutely no part to infidelity on either side as you imply. So I was single during my last trip to Iraq. Since my return we have worked out the issues and were married in February. So while I appreciate you trying to color me as an adulterer you couldn't be further from the truth, I hold marriage to be sacred, as does my wife. So I would appreciate it very fucking much if you would think twice before trying to insult someone publicly like that.

I'll also refer you to my recent post in the immigration bill thread where I point to the lack of reading comprehension skills in these forums. Right before I made the joke about not telling my wife I also comedically referred to my current situation as my new life, which would imply that there has been a drastic change since my last deployment. Its called the English language, try to keep up please.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[davjohns 1]

Quote

Quote

Quote

I dated someone on the base and everyone in the area knew who I was with and how things were going with us, so that just added in another set of stressors that different people cope with in different ways... 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks. Don't tell my wife I said that of course

Are these the same person? If so, I'd imagine she could relate.

Nice try but I wasn't married during my last deployment. The woman I am now married to and I were dating prior to the deployment and had a falling out due in absolutely no part to infidelity on either side as you imply. So I was single during my last trip to Iraq. Since my return we have worked out the issues and were married in February. So while I appreciate you trying to color me as an adulterer you couldn't be further from the truth, I hold marriage to be sacred, as does my wife. So I would appreciate it very fucking much if you would think twice before trying to insult someone publicly like that.

I'll also refer you to my recent post in the immigration bill thread where I point to the lack of reading comprehension skills in these forums. Right before I made the joke about not telling my wife I also comedically referred to my current situation as my new life, which would imply that there has been a drastic change since my last deployment. Its called the English language, try to keep up please.

I don't know what was in TriGirl's mind, but I took her post to imply that you were dating a woman and later made that same woman your current wife. I see you took it as a slight, but Tri isn't ordinarily like that. Her comment that the woman could relate means 'if the woman was in theater with you and is currently out of theater with you' she can probably relate to your feelings on the matter. That makes the same woman both the dated and the mated.

It's called the English language....oh wait...you used that one.

And Tri is military, BTW.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[GQ_jumper 4]

Quote

Quote

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I dated someone on the base and everyone in the area knew who I was with and how things were going with us, so that just added in another set of stressors that different people cope with in different ways... 8 months gone, 5 months home for endless cycles was a great way to live IMO, and this new life sucks. Don't tell my wife I said that of course

Are these the same person? If so, I'd imagine she could relate.

Nice try but I wasn't married during my last deployment. The woman I am now married to and I were dating prior to the deployment and had a falling out due in absolutely no part to infidelity on either side as you imply. So I was single during my last trip to Iraq. Since my return we have worked out the issues and were married in February. So while I appreciate you trying to color me as an adulterer you couldn't be further from the truth, I hold marriage to be sacred, as does my wife. So I would appreciate it very fucking much if you would think twice before trying to insult someone publicly like that.

I'll also refer you to my recent post in the immigration bill thread where I point to the lack of reading comprehension skills in these forums. Right before I made the joke about not telling my wife I also comedically referred to my current situation as my new life, which would imply that there has been a drastic change since my last deployment. Its called the English language, try to keep up please.

I don't know what was in TriGirl's mind, but I took her post to imply that you were dating a woman and later made that same woman your current wife. I see you took it as a slight, but Tri isn't ordinarily like that. Her comment that the woman could relate means 'if the woman was in theater with you and is currently out of theater with you' she can probably relate to your feelings on the matter. That makes the same woman both the dated and the mated.

It's called the English language....oh wait...you used that one.

And Tri is military, BTW.

Well then if I misread it then my apologies and I have to leave it up and take my medicine since I posted about it. Stupid English language

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Skyrad 0]

There is no replacement for it, nothing will ever come close but most will spend the rest of their lives trying to rediscover what they once had but they never will.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Think she was just pulling your plonker.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[GQ_jumper 4]

Quote

Think she was just pulling your plonker.

I know now! But what was said was said so I still have to man up and answer up for it, thats why I left the post up.

Not enough people do things like that nowadays when they mess up.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[Skyrad 0]

Fair play to ye.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca