normiss 643 #101 April 24, 2012 Given no mention in the multiple police reports, no mention in his medical record of treatment for his injuries, and would be nothing more than hearsay at this point and not admissible IF it goes to trial.....what's your point??? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #102 April 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteTrayvon is 100% dead. His killer is 100% alive. And there is nearly a 100% probability TM would be alive had he left GM alone There is the 100% fact that Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn't got out of his truck to follow him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ianmdrennan 2 #103 April 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteSo GM's unwarranted suspicion becomes TM's death. Yeah, TM reacted poorly, but it wasn't unprovoked. It's OK for me to provoke you, and then shoot you if you react strongly enough. That's correct - if lethal force is being used against you, you have the right to defend yourself. That's the part of this whole discussion I have a problem with. Yes, I know we have to defend ourselves, and I don't have a problem with the principal behind SYG - but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who can pick a fight, end up getting an ass whooping, and then shoot the other person under SYG. To me, that seems to be against the spirit of the law. Note: I'm not saying the above did, or didn't, happen regarding the incident in question. I'm commenting purely on your statement. IanPerformance Designs Factory Team Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #104 April 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteTrayvon is 100% dead. His killer is 100% alive. And there is nearly a 100% probability TM would be alive had he left GM alone There is the 100% fact that Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn't got out of his truck to follow him. So look at the lines above Any conclusions?"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #105 April 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteTrayvon is 100% dead. His killer is 100% alive. And there is nearly a 100% probability TM would be alive had he left GM alone There is the 100% fact that Trayvon would still be alive if Zimmerman hadn't got out of his truck to follow him. So look at the lines above Any conclusions? Zimmerman shouldn't have profiled Trayvon. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
normiss 643 #106 April 24, 2012 You have proof of this? The investigating detective that testified has said otherwise. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #107 April 24, 2012 Quote That's the part of this whole discussion I have a problem with. Yes, I know we have to defend ourselves, and I don't have a problem with the principal behind SYG - but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who can pick a fight, end up getting an ass whooping, and then shoot the other person under SYG. Don talked about that too, but I don't think it is founded in legal reality. Losing a fight is not the same as being beaten to death. Getting punched isn't life theatening. Getting your face kicked when you're curled on the ground - yes. And having your head shoved repeatedly against concrete - yes. A CCW holder that initiates a fistfight is on tenuous ground, no doubt. But that action doesn't mean he's indefinitely given up his right to self defence either. If the other person escalates it (pulls out a knife, or the aforementioned actions), he is allowed to respond. And if the CCW person withdrawals from the fight or attempts to, and the other person reinstigates, the burden has shifted to that person. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #108 April 24, 2012 QuoteYou have proof of this? The investigating detective that testified has said otherwise. Specifically too Along with the FACT the GZ's family was neighbors to and was tourtoring 2 black girls of said neighbors WHO said during and interview that they (the black girls children who GZ and family was helping) was not racist Kevin would ruin a persons life for his own racist leanings This is what is really sad and criminal"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #109 April 24, 2012 Quote...Nearly eight in 10 Americans agree with the arrest of Trayvon Martin's accused killer, George Zimmerman. That's according to a CNN and ORC International poll. If we polled Americans if they thought black guys wearing hoodies are more likely to commit crime, do you think we'd get 7 or 8 of 10 too? You've been going on and on about how unfair our society is, yet when the ignorant masses vote for something you like, it becomes legitimate? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #110 April 24, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteSo GM's unwarranted suspicion becomes TM's death. Yeah, TM reacted poorly, but it wasn't unprovoked. It's OK for me to provoke you, and then shoot you if you react strongly enough. That's correct - if lethal force is being used against you, you have the right to defend yourself. That's the part of this whole discussion I have a problem with. Yes, I know we have to defend ourselves, and I don't have a problem with the principal behind SYG - but I have a hard time feeling sorry for someone who can pick a fight, end up getting an ass whooping, and then shoot the other person under SYG. To me, that seems to be against the spirit of the law. Even if SYG didn't exist, Zimmerman was justified in shooting Martin due to the lethal force that was being employed against him. His back was 'against the wall' (ground) and he had no way to retreat and nowhere to retreat to. SYG changed nothing about the situation.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #111 April 25, 2012 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote I'd find it offensive to be suspected. You hit the nail on the head. People take offense to being suspected versus just taking actions to eliminate themselves as a suspect either proactively or reactively. If you're Black don't walk the streets. Or you will be eliminated. Criminal thugs tend to dress a certain way, perhaps not wear the same things? They also act a certain way towards authority figures, perhaps not act that way? Bolas, You have been watching too many TV shows and movies.Criminals come in all sizes, shapes and clothing. Yes, most gangbangers, skin heads, bikers, etc. tend to dress a certain way. But many thugs, murderers, rapists, muggers,purse snatchers etc. are dressed in everyday clothing. Some of the worst crimes I have seen commited were by very ordinary looking folks.If hoodies are a sign of criminals, then most everyone at the World Series of Poker should be arrested. It's not one thing, it's the combination. Were TM at the mall or the WSP his outfit alone would be a nonissue.Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #112 April 25, 2012 QuoteZimmerman probably suspected Martin of being a burglar, not a violent criminal. QuoteWhy? Probably because he was male, black, and wore a hoodie. Sucks to be black, doesn't it. Makes walking down the street a suspicious activity. Wendy, you are letting your emotions get in your way here. Breathe and read it again. EM was a visitor in the neighborhood. He was an unknown. He was in an area that had experienced crime by unknown entities to point of needing to put up a neighborhood watch program of some sort. An unknown, a stranger, walking through at night gets noticed by the watchman. The watchman follows and calls. There is nothing there that is race related. You're being duped by the Sharptons of the world into believing it was all race-driven and that's just NOT the case. What happened after that initial contact may or may not be racial in tone. They both may have been hurling racial epithets at each other. Who knows? How do you know that this wasn't black on Hispanic racially motivated? "I'm going to go back and kick that spics ass." You don't know. So why did you elect to assume it was "anybody" on black racism? So quick to convict.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #113 April 25, 2012 Zimmerman may or may not be guilty of murder. He may or may not be guilty of racial profiling, civil rights violations, or some other charge that may be included in his indictment. It is entirely possible that the events of that night happened just the way he said they did. On the other hand, it is also possible that Z spotted a black guy in the neighborhood, chased him down and shot him like a dog. Doesn't matter either way. His guilt or innocence is completely irrelevant. Zimmerman has been selected by the media, community organizers, and the US Congress to make a payment against "institutional racism" whether racism in this incident was factor or not. There are too many powerful people who are too heavily and publicly invested in their portrayal of Zimmerman and his motives for there to be any other outcome. His "official" condemnation will hopefully appease the race-baiters for a few months before another payment becomes due. Just an observation - I think Z's attorney is making a mistake pursuing the "SYG defense" rather than plain old self defense. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #114 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteZimmerman probably suspected Martin of being a burglar, not a violent criminal. QuoteWhy? Probably because he was male, black, and wore a hoodie. Sucks to be black, doesn't it. Makes walking down the street a suspicious activity. Wendy, you are letting your emotions get in your way here. Breathe and read it again. EM was a visitor in the neighborhood. He was an unknown. He was in an area that had experienced crime by unknown entities to point of needing to put up a neighborhood watch program of some sort. An unknown, a stranger, walking through at night gets noticed by the watchman. The watchman follows and calls. There is nothing there that is race related. You're being duped by the Sharptons of the world into believing it was all race-driven and that's just NOT the case. I think that many educated white people who play the race card may either just be trying to use it as a means to further some type of an agenda, or are just simply ignorant of rough urban life where crime is prevalent and suspicion high. They never really lived it nor been suspected of suspicion themselves and seem to perceive it as being a bad thing. In an overall white society, this perception may be considered racist because they don't see how a person of ANY race can actually be perceived as being suspicious because the inner city tends be mostly populated by minorities, therefore more minority suspects - and that's all they really see for the most part. This false perception may cause them to feel a sense of white guilt and they attempt to compensate through the injustice of emotional pleas...this is not the solution. The only real solution to this problem is personal responsibility. I've been falsely suspected many times, but I knew my environment - evil Detroit. Whether I was just being questioned or had a gun to my head, I always tried to leave my ego behind and reason with my accuser/assailant...this has been very successful for my survival. I tried to avoid scenarios that would only escalate the situation and put myself in even more danger...and yes, sometimes that involved me not pulling a gun and even choosing not to carry most of the time. Nobody knows who you are in the city...everybody is a potential suspect. The important part is to keep your cool and use your brain...keep all the egotistical emotional impulses for the SC - a great source for venting. Another source of the problem is that this is a country based on greed and ultimately it's all about money... it affects both white and black. Many white kids driving a nice car in the ghetto are suspected of buying drugs, and many of them are. The cops find a reason to pull them over and BAM! - a nice pay day from the rich white folks from the suburbs...you have to ask yourselves the question, why they don't just go after the known pushers, many of whom are black? Is it racism? I could go into detail, but the system is designed to keep these offenders as customers of the state, pushing them into the ground and coming back for more...it's not a black and white thing...it's a money thing. They prey on those with money and ambition, but not strong enough to escape the system nor their own vices...vices that the system actually caters to...a double headed monster indeed. Big enough picture for you?Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wlsc 0 #115 April 25, 2012 ...The conservative movement doesn’t understand anti-racism as a value, only as a rhetorical pose. This is how you end up tarring the oldest integrationist group in the country (the NAACP) as racist. The slur has no real moral content to them. It’s all a game of who can embarrass who. If you don’t think racism is an actual force in the country, then you can only understand its invocation as a tactic. From that perspective, then of course George Zimmerman is a victim of “racism” and so is this man in Mobile, of whom the people writing about him know absolutely nothing. It’s a game, in which hurling insults around indiscriminately is entirely within the rules... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #116 April 25, 2012 Quote ...The conservative movement doesn’t understand anti-racism as a value, only as a rhetorical pose. well that's a bit ironic, dontcha think? Quote It’s a game Well it certainly appears to have come to that...and I did enjoy playing it with you in the other thread. Other than that, my posts in this thread stand as truth.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skypuppy 1 #117 April 25, 2012 Quote Well, in the media-edited cut I believe he says he thinks he's black. And the media editing does matter . Why not stay in his truck and let the police deal with it, as they police suggested? Wendy P. It's been said that there had been break-ins in the area recently. We do not know how long it would have taken the police to arrive had not the shots been heard on the 911 call. It's entirely possible that the response time of the police would have been long enuf that a 'suspicious' person would have disappeared before they arrived. In that case, I see no reason why GZ should not try to keep an eye on the person who has raised his suspicions.If some old guy can do it then obviously it can't be very extreme. Otherwise he'd already be dead. Bruce McConkey 'I thought we were gonna die, and I couldn't think of anyone Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #118 April 25, 2012 Quote Quote Well, in the media-edited cut I believe he says he thinks he's black. And the media editing does matter . Why not stay in his truck and let the police deal with it, as they police suggested? Wendy P. It's been said that there had been break-ins in the area recently. We do not know how long it would have taken the police to arrive had not the shots been heard on the 911 call. It's entirely possible that the response time of the police would have been long enuf that a 'suspicious' person would have disappeared before they arrived. In that case, I see no reason why GZ should not try to keep an eye on the person who has raised his suspicions. It's well known that police response time is slow, and often no one would be sent at all for a case of "suspicious person walking on street." A few months ago an older homeowner in the Berkeley Hills was beaten to death by a crazy person (off meds). It started with the victim coming upon a stranger in front of his house. He went inside and called 911. His call was deemed non critical and no one was dispatched. (adding to the intrigue, the police were keeping officers in reserve should the Occupy Oakland event going on get out of hand) 20 minutes later the victim went back out to take care of it himself and was killed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #119 April 25, 2012 This is why I think its good that it went to trial. I don't know how that will turn out, but if it *hadn't* gone to trial, we'd basically be telling the populace that there are no consequences for shooting someone, so long as you can spin it corrrectly and have no witnesses. That's too dangerous a message to send, therefore a trial and legitimate determination of guilty or not guilty is needed. If the latter is the outcome, I suspect there will be some tweaks to the law to prevent picking a fight just for the opportunity to end it. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #120 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteTrayvon is 100% dead. His killer is 100% alive. And there is nearly a 100% probability TM would be alive had he left GM alone Which is, not surprisingly, very similar to the probability he'd be alive if GM had left him alone. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Coreece 190 #121 April 25, 2012 Quoteif it *hadn't* gone to trial, we'd basically be telling the populace that there are no consequences for shooting someone, so long as you can spin it corrrectly and have no witnesses. What a complete load of shit...you don't put someone on trial or not just to send or not send the wrong message... It's funny this new thread is titled the bigger picture, but it's not...it's just the same old pot of piss.Your secrets are the true reflection of who you really are... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #122 April 25, 2012 QuoteI'd find it offensive to be suspected. Offended sure, but I generally forget being offended pretty easily. My real problem would begin when someone started chasing me. I'd perceive that as a threat. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #123 April 25, 2012 QuoteStarting to sound like he failed his drug screen too. Of course that won't matter. To be fair, it might matter, but I agree that it shouldn't. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #124 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteI'd find it offensive to be suspected. Offended sure, but I generally forget being offended pretty easily. My real problem would begin when someone started chasing me. I'd perceive that as a threat. Blues, Dave Wait .... I thought you said it was *SO* difficult to switch from flight to fight, before?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #125 April 25, 2012 QuoteQuoteQuoteI'd find it offensive to be suspected. Offended sure, but I generally forget being offended pretty easily. My real problem would begin when someone started chasing me. I'd perceive that as a threat. Blues, Dave Wait .... I thought you said it was *SO* difficult to switch from flight to fight, before? WTF? For one, I've never said that. For two, even if I had, it would be completely irrelevent to this conversation. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
