Bigger picture: TM vs GZ

[DanG 1]

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And yes, Florida law allows exactly that under certain cases - like having lethal force employed against you in a fight, even if you started it.

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No, that's only true in your made up situation - as stated, the law doesn't allow that scenario.

Which is it, allowed in certain circumstances, or not allowed?

- Dan G

[DrewEckhardt 0]

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I know that if I'm followed I get paranoid. Since I'm 5'4" and 57, that translates into walking into the nearest public place with people for protection.

I hope that works for you.

A few weeks ago I took my wife and daughter to see Cirque du Soleil on the light rail and some kid in his 20s jumped across the isle and hit an old man in the face. The old man moved and no one did anything. Then the kid got up and started pumelling the old man. I got my family out of the way to reduce the risk to us and everyone else did the same thing or stood and gawked.

Fortunately the kid didn't have too much fight in him and stopped. He even had the decency to wait around to be arrested.

I hope things go as well for you.

Other people get beaten worse and/or raped in public places with plenty of people around who do nothing or at best call the police who can pull the surveillance footage and perhaps arrest a perpetrator later.

[wlsc 0]

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Really, Wendy? Really? How about you quit taking Sharpton/Jackson's word for the situation and actually look up what the law says about it?

You are very rude.

[wlsc 0]

...From colonial times into the 1960s, the overwhelming majority of those executed were African American, and although most victims and perpetrators of crime are of the same race, the overwhelming majority of victims in cases where executions took place were white. Hundreds of African Americans have been executed for a variety of crimes against white victims, including scores of African American men executed for rape. However, just four whites have been executed for crimes against African American victims, all murders...

[Southern_Man 0]

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And yes, Florida law allows exactly that under certain cases - like having lethal force employed against you in a fight, even if you started it.

Yes, it appears Florida law does allow you to provoke a confrontation and then when it is going badly to use your gun. Although in that case you do have a duty to try to get out of the fight without using deadly force. Here is the relevant part of the statute:

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[normiss 635]

are the number that approx. 2-3% of the population commits 90% of the crimes still accurate?

[wlsc 0]

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are the number that approx. 2-3% of the population commits 90% of the crimes still accurate?

Don't know it ever was. I do know that Whites commit the majority of crime.

[normiss 635]

thanks for instantly invalidating all the "info" you have posted

[kelpdiver 2]

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I think it's really cute that Wendy thought this thread would be anything but a regurgitation of talking points, wild speculation, ridiculous strawmen, and partisan dick dancing.

she didn't tag it [on topic].

(though I'd think that if a topic is clearly too broad to succeed, they should just declare that tag as null and void)

[grimmie 177]

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I'd find it offensive to be suspected.

You hit the nail on the head. People take offense to being suspected versus just taking actions to eliminate themselves as a suspect either proactively or reactively.

If you're Black don't walk the streets. Or you will be eliminated.

Criminal thugs tend to dress a certain way, perhaps not wear the same things? They also act a certain way towards authority figures, perhaps not act that way?

Bolas, You have been watching too many TV shows and movies.
Criminals come in all sizes, shapes and clothing. Yes, most gangbangers, skin heads, bikers, etc. tend to dress a certain way. But many thugs, murderers, rapists, muggers,purse snatchers etc. are dressed in everyday clothing.
Some of the worst crimes I have seen commited were by very ordinary looking folks.

If hoodies are a sign of criminals, then most everyone at the World Series of Poker should be arrested.

[mnealtx 0]

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And yes, Florida law allows exactly that under certain cases - like having lethal force employed against you in a fight, even if you started it.

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No, that's only true in your made up situation - as stated, the law doesn't allow that scenario.

Which is it, allowed in certain circumstances, or not allowed?

Nice snippage - let me put it back into context:

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Just for the sake of the "bigger picture", am I correct to believe that in your opinion a person who starts a confrontation is legally justified in resorting to deadly force if the fight goes against them, and at some point they start to feel their life is in danger?

Where's your evidence Zimmerman started the confrontation? And yes, Florida law allows exactly that under certain cases - like having lethal force employed against you in a fight, even if you started it.

and:

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What that leads to is a situation where any belligerent asshole, knowing that they are carrying, can accost someone confident in the knowledge that they have an ace in the hole.

No, that's only true in your made up situation - as stated, the law doesn't allow that scenario.

Florida law: 776.041 Use of force by aggressor.—The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:
(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or
(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:
(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or
(b) In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

So...Zimmerman *was* allowed to defend himself against the use of deadly force, and would *not* be able to "use lethal force (just) because the fight was going against him".

Two-fer-one debunk...gotta love it.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

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If hoodies are a sign of criminals, then most everyone at the World Series of Poker should be arrested.

Last year the Feds did shut down most of online poker...

[kelpdiver 2]

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So GM's unwarranted suspicion becomes TM's death. Yeah, TM reacted poorly, but it wasn't unprovoked.

It wasn't unwarranted - the neighborhood had a burglary problem. Keeping an eye on a stranger disguising his appearance (the hoodie isn't as suspicious as a ski mask, but it does cover up the person) isn't provocation. Chasing him with a drawn gun would be. Shouting "I'm gonna kill you, boy" would be. We know the latter didn't happen - he was on the 911 call. We have no evidence that the former did.

GeorgiaDon asserts a fear that people will use CCW+SYD to start fights that they have an upper hand in. It includes a conclusion that GZ is getting away with this, suffering no losses. Which is quite false - he's been in jail, paying money, hiding when he's not in jail, facing very real death threats for the next several years if not convicted. He is not better off, or remotely close to it, before this shooting occurred.

The consequences of a shooting are such that the non criminal is not going to want to do it. Never mind the fact that the outcome of survival is not guaranteed. And the criminal is not going to engage the police in advance of doing it. And this is seen in the frequency of these sorts of events.

Because of this, I personally find the burden of evidence has to be the same as the one required by our legal system - actual evidence that he committed a criminal act. Not "I think he acted poorly and created this situation."

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Fucking vigilantes who want every single person to be able to take the law into their own hands. Think of the fun we would have had if TM had been 18, and legally carrying concealed. Of course, he'd still be suspicious for walking to the store

Neighborhood watch isn't vigilantism. And how many vigilantes dial 911 in advance? GZ has been fully forthcoming, when hiding from public still managed to turn himself in immediately when the charges were placed.

TM would need to be 21 to carry (legally).

[mnealtx 0]

Well said, kelp - kudos.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wlsc 0]

...Nearly eight in 10 Americans agree with the arrest of Trayvon Martin's accused killer, George Zimmerman.

That's according to a CNN and ORC International poll.

Zimmerman was arrested last week and charged with murder in the shooting death of the unarmed Florida teen.

The survey finds 78 percent of those polled say they thought Zimmerman should have been arrested...

[devildog 0]

4 out of 5 enjoy gang rape.

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[rushmc 18]

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4 out of 5 enjoy gang rape.

9 outa 7 people have trouble with statistics

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[devildog 0]

87% of statistics are made up

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[rushmc 18]

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87% of statistics are made up

75% of the time

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[normiss 635]

75% of statistics are made up

[wlsc 0]

Trayvon is 100% dead. His killer is 100% alive.

[devildog 0]

Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that he's only MOSTLY dead

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.

[normiss 635]

Starting to sound like he failed his drug screen too.
Of course that won't matter.

[wlsc 0]

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Starting to sound like he failed his drug screen too.
Of course that won't matter.

Latest is that Zimmerman was drunk.

[rushmc 18]

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Trayvon is 100% dead. His killer is 100% alive.

And there is nearly a 100% probability TM would be alive had he left GM alone

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln