Florida Teen Shot

[fernjack455 0]

Finally, you "get" something.

[AndyBoyd 0]

Minor mistake on my part. It is the defendant, not the prosecution, who bears the burden of showing that he should get immunity. For lawyers with access to Westlaw, the case is Darling v. State, 2012 WL 636305. The "stand your ground" issue is a peripheral issue in the case, but the court gives a quick, easy to understand overview of FL's "stand your ground" law.

Sorry to interrupt with the actual legal principles. Carry on shouting at one another.

[mnealtx 0]

Andy -

Regardless of duty to retreat, the defendant still has to prove ability, opportunity and jeopardy on the part of the assailant in order to use lethal force, do they not?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[popsjumper 2]

I think we're all bozos on this bus...with the exception of the black panther guys...they're just assholes.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[AndyBoyd 0]

Self-defense law is more complicated than it seems, and I'm not a FL attorney, so I don't want to steer anyone wrong. Self-defense and "stand your ground" seem to be different, but obviously related, principles in FL law. Andy9o8 posted a link in post 582 to a FL case that explained FL self-defense law. The FL "stand your ground"immunity statute states:

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

As I said in an earlier post, "stand your ground" in FL is different than self-defense. Self-defense is a defense to prosecution. This means if you are charged with murder, you can assert the defense of self-defense at trial. "Stand your ground" is immunity from prosecution. In other words, if you can prove you are entitled to "stand your ground" immunity at a pre-trial hearing, the court will dismiss the charges and there will be no trial.

To use the example of the Zimmerman case (and I am NOT taking a position -- just using it as an example), IF the prosecution charges him, my understanding of the FL law is that if his attorney asserted "stand your ground", the court would hold a hearing at which witnesses, including Zimmerman, would testify as to what they saw. The attorneys would then argue whether those facts fit the statute or not. If the court thought the facts fit the statute, the court would dismiss the case.

I have to reiterate that I am not a FL attorney, and I'm just taking my best shot at interpreting FL law.

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

Self-defense law is more complicated than it seems, and I'm not a FL attorney, so I don't want to steer anyone wrong. Self-defense and "stand your ground" seem to be different, but obviously related, principles in FL law. Andy9o8 posted a link in post 582 to a FL case that explained FL self-defense law. The FL "stand your ground"immunity statute states:

"A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or to another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

As I said in an earlier post, "stand your ground" in FL is different than self-defense. Self-defense is a defense to prosecution. This means if you are charged with murder, you can assert the defense of self-defense at trial. "Stand your ground" is immunity from prosecution. In other words, if you can prove you are entitled to "stand your ground" immunity at a pre-trial hearing, the court will dismiss the charges and there will be no trial.

To use the example of the Zimmerman case (and I am NOT taking a position -- just using it as an example), IF the prosecution charges him, my understanding of the FL law is that if his attorney asserted "stand your ground", the court would hold a hearing at which witnesses, including Zimmerman, would testify as to what they saw. The attorneys would then argue whether those facts fit the statute or not. If the court thought the facts fit the statute, the court would dismiss the case.

I have to reiterate that I am not a FL attorney, and I'm just taking my best shot at interpreting FL law.

Thanks, Andy - and I realize that you have to disclaim your statements. I should have emphasized that I was speaking in the abstract and not specifically to Florida law and I apologize for not making that clear. However, my question seems to be confirmed by the quote from the other Andy, where it states "including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm".

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[jclalor 12]

Just watched the footage of Zimmerman being brought into the police station. For a man who just had his nose broken and the back of his head pounded into the ground, not a drop of blood, abrasion, or any signs of a what he described happened to him are visible.

[rushmc 18]

Nice post

More to your point

And of course to show some of the stand your ground comments to be less than accurate

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/294609/it-s-not-about-stand-your-ground-john-r-lott-jr

The FL case is not about stand your ground laws

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[AndyBoyd 0]

Quote

Nice post

More to your point

And of course to show some of the stand your ground comments to be less than accurate

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/294609/it-s-not-about-stand-your-ground-john-r-lott-jr

The FL case is not about stand your ground laws

This case will be about stand your ground if his attorney makes that claim. But first, Zimmerman has to be charged. At that point, he will have several options. He could cut a deal, i.e. plea bargain. This seems unlikely given his attorney's public comments. If he chooses not to plea bargain, he can assert stand your ground, and try to have the case dismissed. Or he could go to trial and assert plain old self-defense. So, I suppose it is right to say the case is not necessarily about stand your ground. It could end up being ordinary self-defense. But if I were his attorney, I sure would take a shot at stand your ground immunity first rather than risking a trial.

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Nice post

More to your point

And of course to show some of the stand your ground comments to be less than accurate

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/294609/it-s-not-about-stand-your-ground-john-r-lott-jr

The FL case is not about stand your ground laws

This case will be about stand your ground if his attorney makes that claim. But first, Zimmerman has to be charged. At that point, he will have several options. He could cut a deal, i.e. plea bargain. This seems unlikely given his attorney's public comments. If he chooses not to plea bargain, he can assert stand your ground, and try to have the case dismissed. Or he could go to trial and assert plain old self-defense. So, I suppose it is right to say the case is not necessarily about stand your ground. It could end up being ordinary self-defense. But if I were his attorney, I sure would take a shot at stand your ground immunity first rather than risking a trial.

As any good attorney would.

Thanks for taking the time to post on this

I enjoy your insight.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Just watched the footage of Zimmerman being brought into the police station. For a man who just had his nose broken and the back of his head pounded into the ground, not a drop of blood, abrasion, or any signs of a what he described happened to him are visible.

the plot thickens... this is EXACTLY why he should have been held for a full investigation and not had police officers who were familiar with him make the decision to release him (so that any and all physical evidence on his person is now gone)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2719868/network-broadcasts-surveillance.html

wow really 2012 and I still have to make URLs clicky manually... yeesh....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mnealtx 0]

Oh, yes... it was a grand conspiracy between Zimmerman and the entire Sanford PD to murder a kid that had only been in the area a few days.

So, where was the interaction between Zimmerman and Martin, or between Martin and the Sanford PD so that they even *knew* he was in town to begin with, so they could plan out their nefarious plot?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Zenister 0]

no grand conspiracy at all.. just piss poor police work.

at minimum they should have taken all his clothes into evidence and had detailed photographs taken of his injuries.

Police work is as much about protecting yourself and your department from accusations of bias as it is the actual investigation.

they failed.

Halon's Razor applies
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Quote

Just watched the footage of Zimmerman being brought into the police station. For a man who just had his nose broken and the back of his head pounded into the ground, not a drop of blood, abrasion, or any signs of a what he described happened to him are visible.

the plot thickens... this is EXACTLY why he should have been held for a full investigation and not had police officers who were familiar with him make the decision to release him (so that any and all physical evidence on his person is now gone)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2719868/network-broadcasts-surveillance.html

so is this the highest resolution we can get? Or did jclalor get something with actual detail. With this tiny video, no way to tell anything other than the fact I wasn't aware of - that he was brought down to the station, handcuffed behind the back. Wasn't that was the outrageous people have been demanding? It was done. It's funny - I think this improper "exclusive" release does more to support the notice that process was followed rather than the other way around.

I don't think you can tell if a nose is broken from this sort of video - I'm going to say no. But the cut, if serious enough to benefit from stitching, maybe, maybe not. The lack of blood on the clothes can easily be explained by them letting him change before taking him in.

[Zenister 0]

and why the fuck would you let a potential murder suspect change clothes? Why would they even administer first aid (except in the case of life threatening injuries) without documenting FIRST?

Are you kidding me?

I've no dog in this fight whatsoever, and no opinion on the truth of what happened. The only fact that matters is someone died, and everything about this is just plain sloppy on the part of the involved officers which plays right into the hands of anyone with an agenda, feeds the frenzy that is occurring as we type.

Most departments spend more time documenting road fatalities than the Sanford police department appears to have done in this case...

edit: you can make it full screen, but its unlikely it exists in better resolution (no real reason for high res cameras in what is essentially a situational awareness environment and its likely those were installed before cheaper high res cameras were widely available, they wouldnt spend the money upgrading without a good reason)..

there are enough frames of him standing nearly still to create an enhanced image but honestly I dont care enough to do so, I'll leave that to the professionals who get paid to do it. (The other problem with enhancing digital imagery by compositing frames is its very very easy to manipulate how you wish and nearly impossible to detect because the enhancement itself is manipulation therefore anything done outside of an official environment is suspect, this isnt CSI where you push a button on a computer and it happens automatically, there is limited information available in a digital image and good composite enhancement is an art as much as a technical skill... yes the conspiracy nutters will claim it was manipulated whichever way they believe regardless)

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[mnealtx 0]

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Most departments spend more time documenting road fatalities than the Sanford police department appears to have done in this case...

According to the police report, the initial dispatch was 1917hrs and the time the report was completed was 0307 the next day. Since 8 hours of is evidently insufficient in your eyes, how many MORE hours do you think they should have spent at the scene, pray tell?

Also, regarding Zimmerman's injuries, the report mentions Zimmerman being treated by medical personnel at the scene.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[airtwardo 6]

Quote

and why the fuck would you let a potential murder suspect change clothes? Why would they even administer first aid (except in the case of life threatening injuries) without documenting FIRST?

Are you kidding me?

I've no dog in this fight whatsoever, and no opinion on the truth of what happened. The only fact that matters is someone died, and everything about this is just plain sloppy on the part of the involved officers which plays right into the hands of anyone with an agenda, feeds the frenzy that is occurring as we type.

Most departments spend more time documenting road fatalities than the Sanford police department appears to have done in this case...

How is it that you're privy to exactly what all was collected and what wasn't?

...or are you assuming things are as you say they are?

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

[Zenister 0]

Report =! investigation. If you think they spent that entire time investigating I have a bridge to sell you.

its a guarantee there were hours not spent collecting evidence in between the incident and the report being filed. The fact they dont have his clothes in physical evidence is an obvious failure of process. Its possible pictures were taken on scene (will wait and see) but as this video clearly shows there is no blood on his shirt from the 'broken nose'

As I said I have no opinion on the truth of what happened, but it is quite obvious the police failed to gather the evidence they should have for a fatality shooting. Hell if I were Zimmerman and it happened as he claimed I'd have INSISTED on them having my clothes, taking pictures, full motion video of my injuries etc... if you claim self defense you'd better be prepared to defend that claim for quite a long time both publicly and privately. Having such evidence only strengthens your defense against exactly the kind of zoo that is happening now.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

Quote

Quote

and why the fuck would you let a potential murder suspect change clothes? Why would they even administer first aid (except in the case of life threatening injuries) without documenting FIRST?

Are you kidding me?

I've no dog in this fight whatsoever, and no opinion on the truth of what happened. The only fact that matters is someone died, and everything about this is just plain sloppy on the part of the involved officers which plays right into the hands of anyone with an agenda, feeds the frenzy that is occurring as we type.

Most departments spend more time documenting road fatalities than the Sanford police department appears to have done in this case...

How is it that you're privy to exactly what all was collected and what wasn't?

...or are you assuming things are as you say they are?

if youve been paying attention they've already admitted they do not have the clothes Zimmerman wore that night.

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[1969912 0]

Quote

Wasn't that was the outrageous people have been demanding? It was done. It's funny - I think this improper "exclusive" release does more to support the notice that process was followed rather than the other way around.

Pretty much what I was thinking. And who's to say they didn't document his injuries (if any)?

"Once we got to the point where twenty/something's needed a place on the corner that changed the oil in their cars we were doomed . . ."
-NickDG

[billvon 2,415]

>Also, regarding Zimmerman's injuries, the report mentions Zimmerman being treated
>by medical personnel at the scene.

So how do you explain the lack of visible injuries, if your description of the extent of the violence against him is correct?

[mnealtx 0]

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Report =! investigation. If you think they spent that entire time investigating I have a bridge to sell you.

Prove it and we'll discuss terms on the bridge. Major Crimes unit was called to the scene by the responding officers. You have NO way to know how much time was spent investigating the scene.

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its a guarantee there were hours not spent collecting evidence in between the incident and the report being filed.

Again, you have no way to know that.

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The fact they dont have his clothes in physical evidence is an obvious failure of process.

Must be an interesting place you live in, where the police strip prisoners before taking them to the station.

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Its possible pictures were taken on scene (will wait and see)

Why wait now?

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but as this video clearly shows there is no blood on his shirt from the 'broken nose'

I was COMPLETELY unaware that every broken nose resulted in a bloody shirt. Thanks for pointing that out for us all.

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As I said I have no opinion on the truth of what happened, but it is quite obvious the police failed to gather the evidence they should have for a fatality shooting.

Is that in your professional opinion, Investigator? Again, you have NO way to know that, unless you're on the Sanford PD - are you?

Quote

Hell if I were Zimmerman and it happened as he claimed I'd have INSISTED on them having my clothes, taking pictures, full motion video of my injuries etc... if you claim self defense you'd better be prepared to defend that claim for quite a long time both publicly and privately. Having such evidence only strengthens your defense against exactly the kind of zoo that is happening now.

Again, you have NO way of knowing what evidence (photo or otherwise) was taken at the scene.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

>Also, regarding Zimmerman's injuries, the report mentions Zimmerman being treated
>by medical personnel at the scene.

So how do you explain the lack of visible injuries, if your description of the extent of the violence against him is correct?

MY description of violence was limited to 'blow to the head', as I recall. You evidently have me confused with another poster in that regard.

I can't access the video, so I can't speak to physical evidence of his injury in video - I *can*, however, attest that in my own experience, a punch that produced a bloody nose at the time only showed a bit of redness just an hour or so later. Is there a timestamp in the video so we know at what time Zimmerman was taken to station?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

Quote

Quote

Its possible pictures were taken on scene (will wait and see)

Why wait now?

maybe that will be in the next leak?

[devildog 0]

Quote

Quote

Just watched the footage of Zimmerman being brought into the police station. For a man who just had his nose broken and the back of his head pounded into the ground, not a drop of blood, abrasion, or any signs of a what he described happened to him are visible.

the plot thickens... this is EXACTLY why he should have been held for a full investigation and not had police officers who were familiar with him make the decision to release him (so that any and all physical evidence on his person is now gone)

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/28/2719868/network-broadcasts-surveillance.html

wow really 2012 and I still have to make URLs clicky manually... yeesh....

What thickens?

"Although it’s unclear what time it was taken, it was likely taken after Zimmerman was administered first aid at the shooting scene"


They have no idea when this was taken. Their position on when is complete speculation. If it was even an hour after the fact (if not hours) what would you expect after he already had first aid? A still bleeding nose? Are they just going to let his face stay caked with blood? Of course not.

What you guys are suggesting is that the police arrived and in the span of seconds, all came to the conspiracy consensus that they should file false reports.

"Hey! You just get here?"

"Yeah, why?"

"We're gonna set up that little black kid and tell the white guy to tell everyone he was punched in the face. You in?"

"But I could lose my job. My career. Go to jail...but you're right... it's just too good to pass up! I'm in. Pass it along."

You stop breathing for a few minutes and everyone jumps to conclusions.