The latest push in the War on Women . . .

[billvon 2,478]

. . . has fortunately failed. The Blunt Amendment, which would have made women dependent on their employer's whims on birth control, was defeated in the Senate.

Good to see they're getting something right on occasion.

[lawrocket 3]

It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[billvon 2,478]

>It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot
>be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

No more so than HIV treatments or the medication Bidil are things that "cannot be obtained without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

But you'd still see a big stink if employers could deny benefits to gays or blacks based on their personal preferences. It's odd that since it's women, many people think it's OK.

[nbblood 0]

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>It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot
>be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

No more so than HIV treatments or the medication Bidil are things that "cannot be obtained without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

But you'd still see a big stink if employers could deny benefits to gays or blacks based on their personal preferences. It's odd that since it's women, many people think it's OK.

Yeah, and my toothpaste is a preventative measure for my dental treatment. I think my employer should pay for my toothpaste and my toothbrushes. Oh, and food keeps me from suffering from the medical condition malnutrition. There should be an insurance plan that covers that preventative measure too. And.....and......and.....

We are truly in the era of entitlement. "Somebody else must pay for everything I am 'entitled' to." [/rant]

Blues,
Nathan

If you wait 'til the last minute, it'll only take a minute.

[rehmwa 2]

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It's odd that since it's women, many people think it's OK.

what a divisive way to phrase that....men like to have sex without worrying about pregnancy too. Paying or not having to pay for it, is not equivalent to making it legal or illegal. Planning for parenthood is not a female-only issue. Most insurance plans cover vasectomies, but do they pay for condoms either?

It just seems like an odd place for government to be butting into for either a pro or a con position. The entire health care thing has escalated government into an entirely new level of control over people's lives and incomes. I can only assume that people are excited about it or not depending on the extent of freebies they can now envision themselves getting vs giving.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,478]

>what a divisive way to phrase that....men like to have sex without worrying
>about pregnancy too.

Right. But there are currently no medications, or medically fitted devices like IUD's, that work as contraception for men. Hence an employer's denial of such coverage is an exclusively female issue.

If they denied coverage of Bidil it would become a black issue. Because although there are a great many heart disease medications out there, Bidil is used only by blacks.

>Paying or not having to pay for it, is not equivalent to making it legal or illegal.

Agreed.

>Planning for parenthood is not a female-only issue. Most insurance plans cover

Nope. Nor do they pay for contraceptive sponges, because you do not need to see a doctor or get a prescription for them - hence they are not covered by healthcare plans.

However, if someone proposed a law that allowed companies to opt out of covering vasectomies, but not tubal ligation - then you would indeed have an example of an anti-male law.

>It just seems like an odd place for government to be butting into for either a pro or
>a con position.

Also agreed.

[kallend 1,683]

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>It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot
>be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

No more so than HIV treatments or the medication Bidil are things that "cannot be obtained without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

But you'd still see a big stink if employers could deny benefits to gays or blacks based on their personal preferences. It's odd that since it's women, many people think it's OK.

Yeah, and my toothpaste is a preventative measure for my dental treatment. I think my employer should pay for my toothpaste and my toothbrushes. Oh, and food keeps me from suffering from the medical condition malnutrition. There should be an insurance plan that covers that preventative measure too. And.....and......and.....

We are truly in the era of entitlement. "Somebody else must pay for everything I am 'entitled' to." [/rant]

If you could buy birth control pills over the counter like food and toothpaste, you would have point.

However, the USA has chosen to make them a MEDICAL item needing a prescription from a physician. Which is why they should be covered by MEDICAL insurance like any other MEDICAL item.

And your point is, therefore, silly.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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>It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot
>be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

No more so than HIV treatments or the medication Bidil are things that "cannot be obtained without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

But you'd still see a big stink if employers could deny benefits to gays or blacks based on their personal preferences. It's odd that since it's women, many people think it's OK.

BS Bill

pure bs

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[livendive 8]

I'm glad my employer-provided health plan includes coverage for contraceptives, as these helped my daughter experience tolerable periods years before she became sexually active (they were so bad I once had to take her to the ER). Denying such care would be the moral equivalent of denying treatment for sickle cell anemia.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[rehmwa 2]

Again - Dave brings out the real and medical reason for this. Not just the crappy strawmen and political scripting....


regulating periods, various other health reasons for the pill are out there other than just to enable risk-free (~) sex.

this would be a MUCH more honest and reasonable debate if those were the topic of debate - then it's a no brainer


seems that if gov was out of it, the market would drive this anyway - any company that doesn't offer this on their health plan would draw substandard workers - or at least like minded workers. They then have to change or survive, or deal with it.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[billvon 2,478]

>regulating periods, various other health reasons for the pill are out there other than
>just to enable risk-free (~) sex.

Agreed.

[Southern_Man 0]

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seems that if gov was out of it, the market would drive this anyway - any company that doesn't offer this on their health plan would draw substandard workers - or at least like minded workers. They then have to change or survive, or deal with it.

Maybe, although there are far more options than most people admit in these sorts of debates (nuanced debate is very difficult in fora anyway). It is not really a choice between health insurere providing "free" birth control and people going without birth control. That is a false dichotomy. The cheapest forms of female birth control run $4 a month at Wal-Mart. People can afford that without unnecessary hardship. I know that doesn't work for everybody or every medical condition.

Personally if (and there are assumptions built into this) the market had more options I would choose to work somewhere that the health plan was more of a catastrphic coverage and I could have more in salary. Just to play the numbers--$5000 before any coverage kicked in. In exchange my health insurance cost $5000/yr instead of $8000 and I got to keep the difference in salary). I personally have not used $3000 of health care total in the past five years.

Honestly the debate over birth control is emblamatic of the way health "insurance" has become not a way to mitigate risk but a payment plan for ordinary routine purchase of health care with costs and outcomes very disconnected.

I don't disagree that this debate would have been very different if it was not women's birth control at issue. I do disagree generally that health insurance necessarily needs so many mandated services.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[wolfriverjoe 1,371]

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Maybe, although there are far more options than most people admit in these sorts of debates (nuanced debate is very difficult in fora anyway). It is not really a choice between health insurere providing "free" birth control and people going without birth control. That is a false dichotomy. The cheapest forms of female birth control run $4 a month at Wal-Mart. People can afford that without unnecessary hardship. I know that doesn't work for everybody or every medical condition.

Personally if (and there are assumptions built into this) the market had more options I would choose to work somewhere that the health plan was more of a catastrphic coverage and I could have more in salary. Just to play the numbers--$5000 before any coverage kicked in. In exchange my health insurance cost $5000/yr instead of $8000 and I got to keep the difference in salary). I personally have not used $3000 of health care total in the past five years.

Honestly the debate over birth control is emblamatic of the way health "insurance" has become not a way to mitigate risk but a payment plan for ordinary routine purchase of health care with costs and outcomes very disconnected.

I don't disagree that this debate would have been very different if it was not women's birth control at issue. I do disagree generally that health insurance necessarily needs so many mandated services.

The real cost isn't the cost of filling the scrip. It's the cost of seeing the doc to get the scrip in the first place. And yes, I know that there are a good number of places that offer low cost women's health. Planned Parenthood is one of the biggest. And a lot of these places are under fire because they depend on either charity or government funds to operate. And a lot of those funds are drying up for both political and economic reasons.

And I have a plan along the lines you suggest. Just like car insurance, running a big deductible results in a much lower premium. I personally have a $5K deductible. Other than my flight physical (and my company paid DOT physical), I've seen a doc once in the past 5 years.

BUT, having the doc bill the insurance, which I then pay because I haven't hit the dedutible, is a huge amount cheaper. I saw the doc last fall for a couple issues that came up during my last physical (and a few other things that I wanted to look into). The bill for one office visit, and one return for a blood draw and it's accompanying lab work was over $800.
Because it went through the insurance first, the discounts, and all the other games that get played dropped the bill to less than $400.

Half of what I would have paid if I just walked in off the street.

"There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy

"~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo

[ryoder 1,412]

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It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

As a former insurance agent, I can argue for that position: The purpose of insurance to to substitute a large, infrequent, unpredictable expense with a small, frequent, predictable expense. And it should not be a surprise for women of child-bearing age to know they will need it. Furthermore, anytime you funnel money through an insurance company, there will be overhead, so the money being paid in benefits will always be less than the premiums paid in.

On the flip side, through a series of mishaps last year I set a new personal record for hospital visits, and was astounded in looking at the billing paperwork to see that the insurance companies pay the providers a small fraction of "list price". So had I been paying for that out-of-pocket, I would have paid several times what the insurance paid.

"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones.

[riddler 0]

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On the flip side, through a series of mishaps last year I set a new personal record for hospital visits, and was astounded in looking at the billing paperwork to see that the insurance companies pay the providers a small fraction of "list price". So had I been paying for that out-of-pocket, I would have paid several times what the insurance paid.

Medical billing is one big, complicated joke. The doctor will bill a $20 service as $150, knowing that the insurance company will pay only $35. When the insurance company doesn't pay it, they will bill the patient $35. When the patient doesn't pay it, they are out $20.

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[jclalor 12]

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It find it interesting that birth control is now something that is framed as "cannot be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

It find it interesting that skydiving is now something that is framed as "cannot be done without employers paying for insurance that offers it."

[jclalor 12]

I don't think it's the cost of BC that pisses off the right; it's the fact that these sluts are having sex for pleasure and not for replenishing the shrinking Christian population.

At least Rush thinks their sluts.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/02/sandra-fluke-rush-limbaugh_n_1316304.html

[riddler 0]

If you think the War on Women is bad here, you should see how bad it is in third-world countries!

Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD

[Remster 26]

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I don't think it's the cost of BC that pisses off the right; it's the fact that these sluts are having sex for pleasure and not for replenishing the shrinking Christian population.

At least Rush thinks their sluts.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/02/sandra-fluke-rush-limbaugh_n_1316304.html

You obviously misunderstood... Rush didn't mean it in a bad way. I mean, sluts are people too? And what chance does an old decrepit ex-addict has to score, other than with sluts or whores? Really, he meant it as a compliment.

Remster

[rushmc 18]

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I don't think it's the cost of BC that pisses off the right; it's the fact that these sluts are having sex for pleasure and not for replenishing the shrinking Christian population.

At least Rush thinks their sluts.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/02/sandra-fluke-rush-limbaugh_n_1316304.html

You obviously misunderstood... Rush didn't mean it in a bad way. I mean, sluts are people too? And what chance does an old decrepit ex-addict has to score, other than with sluts or whores? Really, he meant it as a compliment.

No, by her own admission she is one

She goes to a school where tuition is what, 25K +? Room and board is what, 10K?

And she says she cant afford birth control becuase she is having so much sex?

So we should pay for her contraseptives so she can keep having sex?

I'll bet mommy and daddy are proud of there little 20 year old

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,683]

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So we should pay for her contraseptives so she can keep having sex?

Where did she say she wanted YOU to pay? She wants her insurance, for which she pays the premiums, to pay.

Next, she's a LAW student and she's 30, not 20.

Not that FACTS ever stood in the way of a RUSH rant.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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“Without insurance coverage, contraception, as you know, can cost a woman over $3,000 during law school. For a lot of students who, like me, are on public interest scholarships, that’s practically an entire summer’s salary. 40% of the female students at Georgetown Law reported to us that they struggle financially as a result of this policy.

Time for another entitlement


But how can they afford this expensive school and not afford birth control?


This is a trumped up stupid topic

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

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So we should pay for her contraseptives so she can keep having sex?

Where did she say she wanted YOU to pay? She wants her insurance, for which she pays the premiums, to pay.

Provided by a school that she knew going in was a relgious institution so, now she want to push HER beleifs on it when she did not have to go there to begin with

AND, and as an Obama care mandate, tax dollars will eventually subsidize

She dont like

She can go elswhere

Or she can keep her knees together or have the male wear a condum

One more thing to clarify

Those who need if for medical reasons other than birth control, I think they have a point

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[kallend 1,683]

Quote

Quote

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So we should pay for her contraseptives so she can keep having sex?

Where did she say she wanted YOU to pay? She wants her insurance, for which she pays the premiums, to pay.

Provided by a school that she knew going in was a relgious institution so, now she want to push HER beleifs on it when she did not have to go there to begin with

AND, and as an Obama care mandate, tax dollars will eventually subsidize

She dont like

She can go elswhere

Or she can keep her knees together or have the male wear a condum

One more thing to clarify

Those who need if for medical reasons other than birth control, I think they have a point

Rush by name and Rush by nature.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rushmc 18]

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Quote

Quote

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So we should pay for her contraseptives so she can keep having sex?

Where did she say she wanted YOU to pay? She wants her insurance, for which she pays the premiums, to pay.

Provided by a school that she knew going in was a relgious institution so, now she want to push HER beleifs on it when she did not have to go there to begin with

AND, and as an Obama care mandate, tax dollars will eventually subsidize

She dont like

She can go elswhere

Or she can keep her knees together or have the male wear a condum

One more thing to clarify

Those who need if for medical reasons other than birth control, I think they have a point

Rush by name and Rush by nature.

Thank You

I am proud of my name

And my parents are proud of me

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln