masterrig 1 #26 December 10, 2011 QuoteQuoteYes americans you are so free. Let me know how it goes when you want to burn an american flag or video tape a police officer Never leave your beloved safe country! We're free enough to let anyone who doesn't like it here to allow them to GTFO. Free enough? How 'bout 'spoiled'? Like Merle Haggard said; "If, you don't love it... leave it!" Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kd5xb 1 #27 December 10, 2011 What's really interesting to me, and something that I would bet the "World Court" would turn over, is that the guy being imprisoned has been sentenced for something he did in another country, not the one imprisoning him.I'm a jumper. Even though I don't always have money for jumps, and may not ever own a rig again, I'll always be a jumper. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #28 December 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes americans you are so free. Let me know how it goes when you want to burn an american flag or video tape a police officer Never leave your beloved safe country! We're free enough to let anyone who doesn't like it here to allow them to GTFO. Free enough? How 'bout 'spoiled'? Like Merle Haggard said; "If, you don't love it... leave it!" I remember when the "America - love it or leave it" slogan was current during the Vietnam War protest days. I've always thought it was one of the stupider political slogans of American discourse; one that made conservatives look like silly caricatures. In a free, democratic society, we have just as much right - indeed, duty! - to try to improve our country by constructively criticizing our government and society, as we do to improve the kids we raise when we reprimand them for doing stupid, irresponsible shit and tell them how to properly behave themselves. I, for one, am sick to death of criticism of the government, or criticism of social conditions that need improvement, being slandered as "un-American" or "tearing the country down", etc., whether by Merle Haggard, Richard Nixon, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich or anyone else. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #29 December 11, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes americans you are so free. Let me know how it goes when you want to burn an american flag or video tape a police officer Never leave your beloved safe country! We're free enough to let anyone who doesn't like it here to allow them to GTFO. Free enough? How 'bout 'spoiled'? Like Merle Haggard said; "If, you don't love it... leave it!" I remember when the "America - love it or leave it" slogan was current during the Vietnam War protest days. I've always thought it was one of the stupider political slogans of American discourse; one that made conservatives look like silly caricatures. In a free, democratic society, we have just as much right - indeed, duty! - to try to improve our country by constructively criticizing our government and society, as we do to improve the kids we raise when we reprimand them for doing stupid, irresponsible shit and tell them how to properly behave themselves. I, for one, am sick to death of criticism of the government, or criticism of social conditions that need improvement, being slandered as "un-American" or "tearing the country down", etc., whether by Merle Haggard, Richard Nixon, Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich or anyone else. I am sick of it too. Like you said, it's just a slogan from a by gone era. I put that out there, a bit tongue-in-cheek. What I get tired of is people complaining about our government and not doing something about it. We keep voting into office the very causes of many of our problems. We don't press them to really do their jobs the way they were meant to be done. Just wanted to add... Just from my own observation, it appears to me that we in this country are spoiled and wasteful. We spread the word to 'NOT' litter yet, I've seen people throw trash out their window while their vehicle bore a 'Don't Litter' bumper sticker. Yup! I gave the guy's license number with veh. description to the Sheriff. We 'expect' everything yet give-back little. We tend to have an 'It's all about me!' attitude. We stretch our rights to the breaking point. We demand respect but don't 'earn' respect. So-on and so-on. If, folks would open their eyes and 'really' look around them, they might see things a bit differently. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,128 #30 December 12, 2011 QuoteWhat's really interesting to me, and something that I would bet the "World Court" would turn over, is that the guy being imprisoned has been sentenced for something he did in another country, not the one imprisoning him. Really not that unusual. The US, among many other countries, have laws that criminalize conduct by their citizens in other countries. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #31 December 12, 2011 QuoteQuoteWhat's really interesting to me, and something that I would bet the "World Court" would turn over, is that the guy being imprisoned has been sentenced for something he did in another country, not the one imprisoning him. Really not that unusual. The US, among many other countries, have laws that criminalize conduct by their citizens in other countries. Even more than that, if one considers the growing use of the doctrine of Universal Jurisdiction. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gher 0 #32 December 12, 2011 QuoteThe next time you think the US is fucked up beyond all reason, read this story and ask yourself how many years would you have gotten? http://www.cnn.com/2011/12/08/world/asia/thailand-american-insults/index.html Isn't that where DreamDancer, our resident hater of "the 1%" lives? Odd that he'd choose a Monarchy to live in... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #33 December 13, 2011 Quote Isn't that where DreamDancer, our resident hater of "the 1%" lives? Odd that he'd choose a Monarchy to live in... The weird bit about all this is that most of the people of Thailand do love their monarch. This isn't like our leadership of Iran and Syria clamping down on dissidents. Yet here we are, seeing people jailed for doing as little as linking to an unsanctioned article or book. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,128 #34 December 13, 2011 QuoteThe weird bit about all this is that most of the people of Thailand do love their monarch. This isn't like our leadership of Iran and Syria clamping down on dissidents. Yet here we are, seeing people jailed for doing as little as linking to an unsanctioned article or book. Interesting comment, since many Americans wanted Assange killed for providing links to unsanctioned information. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #35 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe weird bit about all this is that most of the people of Thailand do love their monarch. This isn't like our leadership of Iran and Syria clamping down on dissidents. Yet here we are, seeing people jailed for doing as little as linking to an unsanctioned article or book. Interesting comment, since many Americans wanted Assange killed for providing links to unsanctioned information. ka-BOOM!My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #36 December 13, 2011 Quote Interesting comment, since many Americans wanted Assange killed for providing links to unsanctioned information. Yes, because a book about the President of Thailand is EXACTLY the same as classified information about military operations, plans and sources. Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #37 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe weird bit about all this is that most of the people of Thailand do love their monarch. This isn't like our leadership of Iran and Syria clamping down on dissidents. Yet here we are, seeing people jailed for doing as little as linking to an unsanctioned article or book. Interesting comment, since many Americans wanted Assange killed for providing links to unsanctioned information. perhaps, though I don't quite see the parallel as much as you and your America hatred does. I also didn't support such attacks on him, or the farce of the sexual charges made against him. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,128 #38 December 13, 2011 Quoteperhaps, though I don't quite see the parallel as much as you and your America hatred does. I see the parallel as far as breaking government bans on information. That's about it. As far as your assumption about my hatred regarding the US. Meh, whatever helps you sleep at night. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 December 13, 2011 QuoteQuoteperhaps, though I don't quite see the parallel as much as you and your America hatred does. I see the parallel as far as breaking government bans on information. That's about it. As far as your assumption about my hatred regarding the US. Meh, whatever helps you sleep at night. When someone resorts to "meh" and "whatever" in the same sentence, one can safely translate that to "I don't know what the fuck I'm talking about." As I wrote early on, if the US had rules like Thailand, the majority of the country would have been jailed at some point for comments about Clinton, Shrub, and Obama. People may not like the Shield laws, but they do exist. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ion01 1 #40 December 13, 2011 The United states of america is not a democracy!! Its a republic and if you don't like the constitution then you can leave. The founders made it a republic because they understood that democracy results in socialism and oppression! Here is a simple illustration: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PGMQZEIXBMs I will spare you all the quotes from the founders. the Federalist papers are a good place to start to understand such concepts. Once again we are not a democracy! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #41 December 13, 2011 QuoteThe founders made it a republic because they understood that democracy results in socialism and oppression! Actually, they made it a Republic because frequent travel and fast communication was impractical in the mid-1700s. There simply was no way to practically hold elections on every topic that needed to be considered, so a representative government made the most sense. Try to not rewrite history.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #42 December 13, 2011 QuoteThe United states of america is not a democracy!! Its a republic Sigh. Every time I use "democracy" as an abbreviated term of convenience (rather than the longer "democratic republic with a constitution") I get some twit who thinks he needs to define basic terms for me, notwithstanding my advanced degree in political science and government. Quoteif you don't like the constitution then you can leave. Aside from the fact that you're totally misunderstanding and twisting what I said, what part of " 'Love it or leave it' is a stupid slogan" do you not understand? Seriously, you're embarrassing yourself. Time to bring your game up. Start out with reading comprehension, then move outward from there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 December 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteThe founders made it a republic because they understood that democracy results in socialism and oppression! Actually, they made it a Republic because frequent travel and fast communication was impractical in the mid-1700s. There simply was no way to practically hold elections on every topic that needed to be considered, so a representative government made the most sense. Incorrect, sir. Read Federalist #10. QuoteTry to not rewrite history. Like you just attempted?Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aphid 0 #44 December 14, 2011 QuoteRead Federalist #10. Kindly excuse my foreign ignorance. What does this reference? John Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 December 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteRead Federalist #10. Kindly excuse my foreign ignorance. What does this reference? John The The Federalist Papers are a series of 85 articles or essays promoting the ratification of the United States Constitution. NB: "Publius", one of the authors of the Federalist Papers and the author of #10, is believed to have been James Madison. Outside of the noted Federalist Paper, there are a number of quotes from the Founding Fathers that disproves Quade's claim on the reason for a representative republic vs. a pure democracy. Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers: We are a Republican Government, Real liberty is never found in despotism or in the extremes of democracy...it has been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience has proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity. John Adams: Democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide. Thomas Jefferson: A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where 51% of the people may take away the rights of the other 49%. James Madison: Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their death. John Quincy Adams: The experience of all former ages had shown that of all human governments, democracy was the most unstable, fluctuating and short-lived.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
aphid 0 #46 December 14, 2011 Thank you for the link. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #47 December 14, 2011 QuoteThank you for the link. You're quite welcome - there's some interesting reading in both the Federalist and anti-Federalist papers.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #48 December 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteThe founders made it a republic because they understood that democracy results in socialism and oppression! Actually, they made it a Republic because frequent travel and fast communication was impractical in the mid-1700s. There simply was no way to practically hold elections on every topic that needed to be considered, so a representative government made the most sense. Incorrect, sir. Read Federalist #10. That's one man's opinion about one man's pseudonymous opinion. The practicalities of the day are what actually drove the decision. It simply would not have been possible to do otherwise. It's the same reason we have the Electoral College. What Federalist 10 is actually talking about is how to cut down on influence peddling -- Factionalism. It makes a certain case for it, but I think we can now see the flaw in it. It's actually easier to influence this smaller group of representatives.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #49 December 14, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThe founders made it a republic because they understood that democracy results in socialism and oppression! Actually, they made it a Republic because frequent travel and fast communication was impractical in the mid-1700s. There simply was no way to practically hold elections on every topic that needed to be considered, so a representative government made the most sense. Incorrect, sir. Read Federalist #10. That's one man's opinion about one man's pseudonymous opinion. The practicalities of the day are what actually drove the decision. It simply would not have been possible to do otherwise. It's the same reason we have the Electoral College. The quotes of the Founding Fathers prove you wrong. QuoteWhat Federalist 10 is actually talking about is how to cut down on influence peddling -- Factionalism. It makes a certain case for it, but I think we can now see the flaw in it. It's actually easier to influence this smaller group of representatives. No. He uses factionalism as a comparison point between a straight Democracy and a Republic. From #10: QuoteFrom this view of the subject, it may be concluded, that a pure Democracy, by which I mean a Society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the Government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of Government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party, or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is, that such Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths. Theoretic politicians, who have patronized this species of Government, have erroneously supposed, that by reducing mankind to a perfect equality in their political rights, they would, at the same time, be perfectly equalized and assimilated in their possessions, their opinions, and their passions. A Republic, by which I mean a Government in which the scheme of representation takes place, opens a different prospect, and promises the cure for which we are seeking. Let us examine the points in which it varies from pure Democracy, and we shall comprehend both the nature of the cure, and the efficacy which it must derive from the Union.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #50 December 14, 2011 QuoteThe quotes of the Founding Fathers prove you wrong. Really? Quote them. I don't mean a pseudonym, I mean an actual quoteS from Founding FatherS. Clearly Fed 10 isn't it. That's simply one man's opinion and he didn't have the balls to sign his name to it. AND there were dissenting opinions as well. Go for it. Show me the quotes that prove me wrong and it wasn't done for practical reasons of travel and communications. You make it sound as if Fed 10 was actually an important piece of how the US Constitution was created. It wasn't. It certainly wasn't considered all that important in its own time. It was simply a minor opinion.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
