Are all the current US wars for oil proffits?

[shropshire 0]

Really?

WW2 - land Grab
Falkland - land Grab
American Indian wars - land grab
Roman Empire - Land Grab
Mongal wars - land Grab
British/Zulu war - Land Grab
Viking invasion .... oh yeah ,... land Grab
etc......... etc.......

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[doi 0]

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How is the war in Afghanistan about wealth, land, or resources?

Why don't we turn this around and ask you what you think the Afghanistan war is about, why it is justified and how well the mission is going.

You need not go into too much detail, just the limp edition will do. I am interested in what type of mind I am up against here.

What are your thoughts on the matter, you know mine.

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If that war were about building a pipeline, I'm pretty sure the pipeline would have at least been started by now.

And you are certain it hasn't...how?

[doi 0]

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i disagree. I think religion and political ideology has started more wars and caused more deaths than any other reason.

Explain how those things do not fall in the, 'Power' category?

[Gravitymaster 0]

While I don't disagree that land and greed have been a major cause of wars, I still submit that religion and political ideology (sometimes the same) have been responsible for more wars than land and greed. I also realize that often, the media does not identify the precise causes of some of the conflicts around the world. Clashes are frequently described as being ethnic in origin, even though religion may have been a main cause.

The true causes of unrest are sometimes difficult to determine. Frequently, there are a mixture of political alliances, economic differences, ethnic feuds, religious differences, and others. But all to often they are for religious beliefs such as Muslims against Jews and Christians.

In Northern Ireland, "the troubles" refer to about three decades of violence, largely between the Roman Catholics nationalist community who sought union with Ireland and the primarily Protestant unionist community who want to remain part of the UK. It was largely rooted in discrimination by the Protestant majority against the Catholic minority. Between 1969 and 2001, 3,526 people were killed by Republican and Loyalist paramilitary groups and by British and Irish security forces. An uneasy peace was attained by the Belfast Agreement of 1998 and has endured.

The Rwanda genocide was mainly an ethnic conflict between the Hutu majority and the Tutsi minority. The religious split in the country (75% Christian, mostly Roman Catholic, and 25% indigenous) appears to not have been a significant factor. On the order of 800,000 Tutsi and moderate Hutu were murdered, mostly by being hacked to death.

The war in Bosnia-Herzegovina was among three faith groups, (Muslim, Roman Catholic, and Serbian Orthodox). The Serbian Orthodox Christian attacks on Muslims was elevated to the level of genocide.

The horrendous civil war in Sudan has a significant religious component among Muslims, Christians and Animists. But inter-tribal warfare, racial and language conflicts are also involved.

The Second Congo War (a.k.a. Africa's World War and the Great War of Africa) started in 1998 in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. By 2008, 5.4 million persons had been killed, largely from disease and starvation. Hostilities continue to the present.

A group of world religious leaders from the Buddhist, Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox Christian, Jewish, Muslim and many other faiths met in Geneva Switzerland during 1999-OCT. They issued a document, The Geneva Spiritual Appeal, asking political and religious leaders and organizations to ensure that religions are not used to justify violence in the future. Delegates believed that many of the then-current 56 conflicts have religious elements.

Add in Bosnia, Cote' d'lvoire, the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition and nearly every conflict in the Middle East for the past 20 centuries. Plus the fact that U.N. peace keeping forces are currently station in Cyprus to prevent ongoing violence between Greeks (Christians) and Turks (Muslims), the extermination of Christians in East Timor, the ongoing conflicts between India and Pakistan which has the potential to lead to nuclear war in the future, ongoing conflicts between Israel and the Palestinians (I know it's reported as an issue with land but let's be honest, they don't like Israel b/c they don't like Jews). The conflicts between Communist China and Tibet (Buddists).

I could go on but I think you get my point.

[DanG 1]

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Why don't we turn this around and ask you what you think the Afghanistan war is about, why it is justified and how well the mission is going.

You made the argument. Back it up.

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You need not go into too much detail, just the limp edition will do. I am interested in what type of mind I am up against here.

You first. As background, I spent about a year and a half in Afghanistan working with the local population and local authorities in both the East and South ofthe country.

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What are your thoughts on the matter, you know mine.

I don't know yours, which is why I asked. I claim that all wars have been about Krispy Kreme doughnuts. And I have provided as much explanation for my theory as you have for yours.

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And you are certain it hasn't...how?

See above.

- Dan G

[kelpdiver 2]

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i disagree. I think religion and political ideology has started more wars and caused more deaths than any other reason.

Explain how those things do not fall in the, 'Power' category?

"power" is a sufficiently generic term that anything and everything can be categorized under it. Which makes the statement a bit pointless.

[billvon 2,470]

>Why don't we turn this around and ask you what you think the
>Afghanistan war is about

Revenge
Ending a threat
Pride

Take your pick.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I prefer disrupting the alliance between the Taliban and Al Qaeda.

[doi 0]

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You made the argument. Back it up.

OK.

First the recourses

The obvious is the oil in the Caspian sea ;

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Current concerns

The oil in the Caspian basin is estimated to be worth over US $12 trillion. The sudden collapse of the USSR and subsequent opening of the region has led to an intense investment and development scramble by international oil companies. In 1998 Dick Cheney commented that "I can't think of a time when we've had a region emerge as suddenly to become as strategically significant as the Caspian."[29]

A key problem to further development in the region is the status of the Caspian Sea and the establishment of the water boundaries among the five littoral states (see below). The current disputes along Azerbaijan's maritime borders with Turkmenistan and Iran could potentially affect future development plans.

Much controversy currently exists over the proposed Trans-Caspian oil and gas pipelines. These projects would allow western markets easier access to Kazakh oil, and potentially Uzbek and Turkmen gas as well. The United States has given its support for the pipelines. Russia officially opposes the project on environmental grounds. Analysts note that the pipelines would bypass Russia completely, thereby denying the country valuable transit fees, as well as destroying its current monopoly on westward-bound hydrocarbon exports from the region.[30] Recently both Kazakhstan and Turkmenistan have expressed their support for the Trans-Caspian Pipeline

Notice who was quoted mentioning the importance of the Caspian Sea natural recourses, and was vice president at the time of the beginning of the prompt and expansive Afghanistan war which is currently the longest war the United States has ever been in.

Dick Cheney (among others) are not only involved in the government decisions in regards to these things, He(they) are beneficiaries of the profits that ensue if the wars continue.

Watch this;

"http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbDfYzq_HaQ"

So it is not only about the natural recourses that are needed to keep society moving forward, it is about the huge amount of profit that can be gained by the individuals that put in place the systems that keep the oil flowing, so to speak.

Society will not stand for cold blooded murder for the sake of profit, so it has to be sold as something else.

In this case freedom, democracy and fighting terror are the 'excuses' for murder.

there is no resolve to the Afghanistan war, there was never meant to be, as long as the area is unstable, the military bases are in place and the contractors are getting the contracts, then the revolving door will continue to spin and the global population will pay for it in the name of uneven distribution of wealth.

There are also other lucrative recourses like circa90%of the worlds opium poppies, lithium other mineral resources etc. the list goes on.

In fact there is so much evidence of foul play, corruption, war crimes and plain old abuse of the system that one would almost have to be completely stupid to not be aware of it, then why are we not so aware?

The mainstream media is also owned by the very same profiteers and therefore you are simply not told the actual truth, you are sold a story that ensures that we will allow the corruption to continue.

I am sure we all know deep down that this is the case, just as I mentioned earlier, but a glimmer of the real truth hurts so much that one will violently oppose the complete exposure of all of it, as being aware and addressing it will remove the cushy lifestyle we have all grown accustomed to living, as long as it is the 3rd world over there and not here, it is OK.

Right?

It is fast becoming the third world everywhere as the hoarders keep on hoarding, and we continue to allow the corruption to continue taking the lives of innocent people.

If you have been there, you will be well aware of what I am talking about. it just comes down the whether you are willing to expose yourself by admitting it.

Which I doubt very much but I have at least given you insight to some of the reasons why I think the way I do.

Now tell me in your own words, why you think the Afghanistan war is still going on, what it is going to/supposed to achieve and how well you think the operation is going?

[DanG 1]

As expected you had to rely on the old pipeline backup. In order for that to make sense, we had to engineer 9/11, invade Afghanistan to remove the Taliban, and then get to work on that pipeline! If you believe that 9/11 was a US government conspiracy, then I have nothing more to say to you. I suspect you'll argue that 9/11 was a convenient trigger that Bush/Cheney seized upon to get the ball rolling on that pipeline. Okay, so we get rid of the Taliban, and get to work on the pipeline, right? Well, it's been almost ten years, and no pipeline. If we're fighting in Afghanistan just to build a pipeline, we're doing a shitty job.

Other resources you mention are opium and lithium. For the first five or six years of the war, we pretty much didn't touch the poppies. We promoted alternative crops, educated farmers on modern techniques that would make other crops more profitable, and worked with tribal groups to discourage the planting of poppies. Only in the last four or five years has poppy eradication been prevalent, and it's mostly being pushed by the Europeans. I fail to see how the low level effort to eradicate poppies could be considered a war over resources.

I don't know much about litium production in Afghanistan except to say that I don't believe there is much. I suppose there may be substantial lithium resources there, but as far as I know, they have yet to be exploited. Again, we're not doing a very good job if we went to war for lithium.

The end of your post is a hodge-podge of talking points about military contractors, distribution of wealth, and general sheeple bullshit. I see no reason to respond point by point. Suffice it to say, as much as you think I've bought into the mainstream narrative, you've obviously bought into the radical alternative narrative.

We went to war in Afghanistan to respond to repeated attacks by Al Qaeda, with Taliban support, on US interests both at home and abroad. Missle strikes and economic embargoes by Clinton didn't have an impact, so boots on the ground were required. We succeeded in removing the Taliban from power, and started working to build an effective central government. The effort has had mixed success. The elections in 2004 were very successful, but the new Parliament has had trouble becoming an effective body. The ANA and ANP numbers have swelled, but the leadership from the mid level on up has not been effective at all. What we are trying to do is nothing short of building a modern country from scratch, against the baggage of centuries of tribal warfare, drug profit dependance, and constant outside interference.

I doubt the West has the tenacity to stay there long enough to allow the progress we've made so far take full root. I'm sorry that is the case, but it's not surprizing. People like you, who seize on radical anti-US propoganda without really understanding the situation, are partly to blame. Antipathy and general ignorance in the general population is mostly to blame.

- Dan G

[doi 0]

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Revenge
Ending a threat
Pride

Are you proud to know the protection of your pride is enough of an excuse to slaughter thousands of innocent people?

Do you accept/believe that murdering innocent people actually assists in reducing the hatred towards America and your cushy lifestyle?

Is the threat of terror any less now than it was in 2002?

Revenge, well that is an eye for an eye and just swings that revolving door we were just talking about.

If you buy into these excuses, then you are ignoring the punch line.

Fighting a war against terror ‘with’ terror is like putting out a fire with gasoline.

Not that I beleive that is the objective, beleiving that objective is plausable or rational would make one nieve.

Natural recources baby, that is what keeps the human social machine cranking.

[wsd 0]

Yeah natural resources like the ones here in the US and Russia?

Oh and that pesky South America we have invaded.

If it is only about resources and getting them at all costs why haven't we taken over Venezuela and Saudi Arabia?

[mnealtx 0]

That was well-stated, Dan - kudos.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[doi 0]

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As expected you had to rely on the old pipeline backup.

No I relied on history and its documentation.

We can delve into any aspect of any entity that holds any significant power, finance, or resources and we will find corruption.

Can you agree with that?

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In order for that to make sense, we had to engineer 9/11, invade Afghanistan to remove the Taliban, and then get to work on that pipeline!

Those are your words.

I cannot believe anything we are told by the media, what I know I can rely on, is that they do not tell us everything.

Do you believe everything that is said by the media?

Are the most important issues addressed by the media in your mind?

Are you happy with the reporting of the Bin Ladin Assassination? Considering the administration was apparently watching it live, the story changed completely over the next couple of days and in the end it was announced that the truth was too much for the American public to see.

That is one aspect that changed, it all changes so in the end we just have to accept that we are told what we are allowed to hear and are withheld the complete truth.

How can we make concrete conclusions with half truths and obvious political spin?

We can’t, I decide to be agnostic about it and will accept the evidence as it happens.

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If you believe that 9/11 was a US government conspiracy, then I have nothing more to say to you.

I believe they are complicit by not exposing the complete truth. If they didn’t violently oppose a complete independent investigation with subpoena, and then they simply have something to hide.

There is too many whistle blowers, witnesses and evidence that the official story is incorrect, but if you say that you are called a nutcase by people like you.

Angry, violently opposing people, that uses straw man tactics to dance around the answer. I wish not to discuss it with you either as you are quite obviously one of these people so I will not bother wasting my time.

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I suspect you'll argue that 9/11 was a convenient trigger that Bush/Cheney seized upon to get the ball rolling on that pipeline. Okay, so we get rid of the Taliban, and get to work on the pipeline, right? Well, it's been almost ten years, and no pipeline. If we're fighting in Afghanistan just to build a pipeline, we're doing a shitty job.

The pipelines have been surveyed for several routes, whether or not they come into fruition will not reflect on the basis of the occupation in the region.
If not to control the resources, to stop others becoming to powerful with them.

Bush and Cheney are only 2 of a long line of corrupt politicians with links to large corporations that benefit financially with these decisions.

Are you OK with your politicians making money from the wars they start?

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Other resources you mention are opium and lithium. For the first five or six years of the war, we pretty much didn't touch the poppies. We promoted alternative crops, educated farmers on modern techniques that would make other crops more profitable, and worked with tribal groups to discourage the planting of poppies. Only in the last four or five years has poppy eradication been prevalent, and it's mostly being pushed by the Europeans. I fail to see how the low level effort to eradicate poppies could be considered a war over resources.

Afghanistan has never produced as much opium as it has since the war started.

Controlling the poppies is more likely, Pharmecuticals are big business and they need poppies too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_production_in_Afghanistan

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Present War in Afghanistan
By November 2001, the collapse of the economy and the scarcity of other sources of revenue forced many of the country's farmers to resort back to growing opium for export.(1,300 km² in 2004 according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime.)
VOA reporter interviewing poppy cultivators.
In December 2001, a number of prominent Afghans met in Bonn, Germany, under United Nations (UN) auspices to develop a plan to reestablish the State of Afghanistan, including provisions for a new constitution and national elections. As part of that agreement, the United Kingdom (UK) was designated the lead country in addressing counter-narcotics issues in Afghanistan. Afghanistan subsequently implemented its new constitution and held national elections. On December 7, 2004, Hamid Karzai was formally sworn in as president of a democratic Afghanistan."[14]
Two of the following three growing seasons saw record levels of opium poppy cultivation. Corrupt officials may have undermined the government's enforcement efforts. Afghan farmers suggested that "government officials take bribes for turning a blind eye to the drug trade while punishing poor opium growers"…

…there have also been allegations of American and European involvement in Afghanistan's drug trafficking with links to Taliban.

The war has increased opium production.

Lithium might just be a nice spoil or it may be bigger than we think, I remember reading about a 1 $trillion seam they found a year or two ago but who knows what spin that was.

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The end of your post is a hodge-podge of talking points about military contractors, distribution of wealth, and general sheeple bullshit. I see no reason to respond point by point. Suffice it to say, as much as you think I've bought into the mainstream narrative, you've obviously bought into the radical alternative narrative.

It is only hodge-podge to you as you are thinking of ways to ignore it while you read it; rather then ingesting and considering. You cannot openly deny it so you are forced to the old straw man tactic of insulting me rather than addressing the point.

I used to believe what I was told until time and time again the story changes. Again, take WMD’s for example.

We go to war in spite, and kill many people then we find out it is a lie, and we forget about it and leave it like water under a bridge with no accountability to those that blatantly lied to us.

Vietnam? Gulf of Tonkin... 60,000 us troops ring a bell?

I hold no allegiance to any political standing; I interpret things on my own. I will look at both sides. Usually the untruthful party is easy to pick out.

Usually you just have to follow the money.

You are right we are wasting our time debating each other; you are too set in your way to accept you are living a lie, and it is also quite obvious that you are quite bitter about it. None of us enjoy knowing that we support terror.

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We went to war in Afghanistan to respond to repeated attacks by Al Qaeda, with Taliban support, on US interests both at home and abroad. Missle strikes and economic embargoes by Clinton didn't have an impact, so boots on the ground were required. We succeeded in removing the Taliban from power, and started working to build an effective central government. The effort has had mixed success. The elections in 2004 were very successful, but the new Parliament has had trouble becoming an effective body. The ANA and ANP numbers have swelled, but the leadership from the mid level on up has not been effective at all. What we are trying to do is nothing short of building a modern country from scratch, against the baggage of centuries of tribal warfare, drug profit dependance, and constant outside interference.

I doubt the West has the tenacity to stay there long enough to allow the progress we've made so far take full root. I'm sorry that is the case, but it's not surprizing. People like you, who seize on radical anti-US propoganda without really understanding the situation, are partly to blame. Antipathy and general ignorance in the general population is mostly to blame.

How many people have been killed in afghanistan, you talk about the positive changes, how about the displaces families, dead and maimed children and so forth?

So you are there to overthrow a government and establish a new country, or are you there getting the bad guys with the assitnce of the country.

Which is it? we are spun so many different stories that it is impossible to keep up.

In the meantime Sheppard boys are killed for fun, girls are raped and innocent people killed by air strikes from unmanned aircraft.

Billions are spent, and your county is spiralling down the toilet bowl.

Have you watched the money markets lately?

I think you should overthrow your own government and get rid of the corruption there, and then we may have a chance at peace.

The anti American doctrine comes from the murdering and arrogant attitude of the American people; this is created from the propaganda and nationalism.

True patriotism is almost non existent now as it has been signed into law that patriotism is unlawful.

Do not question authority. Do not stray from the heard.

I have said my thing, and have spent already too much energy explaining myself.

We are all free to interpret life as we choose.

Try to be agnostic, try to find balance and try to love all.

Have a nice day.

[DanG 1]

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We can delve into any aspect of any entity that holds any significant power, finance, or resources and we will find corruption.

Can you agree with that?

Sure. That has nothing to do with your theory that we are in Afghanistan for natural resources.

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Do you believe everything that is said by the media?

Are the most important issues addressed by the media in your mind?

No and yes.

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Are you happy with the reporting of the Bin Ladin Assassination? Considering the administration was apparently watching it live, the story changed completely over the next couple of days and in the end it was announced that the truth was too much for the American public to see.

Yes, I'm happy with it. The Administration was not watching it live like it was a Playstation game with direct feeds from gun mounted cameras. That just doesn't happen. In another thread I challenged someone to come up with changes to the story other than Bin Laden being armed and using his wife as a shield. They were unable to, just as you'll be unable to as well.

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How can we make concrete conclusions with half truths and obvious political spin?

We can’t, I decide to be agnostic about it and will accept the evidence as it happens.

Obviously you can, since your mind is quite made up.

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There is too many whistle blowers, witnesses and evidence that the official story is incorrect, but if you say that you are called a nutcase by people like you.

Like I suspected. Another conspiracy theorist who thinks he knows it all.

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The war has increased opium production.

So you think we went to war to increase illicit opium production? That makes no sense, even from your warped perspective.

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It is only hodge-podge to you as you are thinking of ways to ignore it while you read it; rather then ingesting and considering. You cannot openly deny it so you are forced to the old straw man tactic of insulting me rather than addressing the point.

No, it was a hodge-podge because it was a hodge-podge. You don't have a coherent argument, just a lot of vague references to radical anti-Western talking points. I can openly deny it because it is silly. As far as insulting you goes, you need to refine your reading skills. I'm insulting your argument, not you. Crying about non-existant personal attacks is a sure hallmark of a weak argument.

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We are all free to interpret life as we choose.

Yeah, I suppose so. I'm just sorry that so many people choose the interpretation that makes no sense. Some of those people even vote.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,470]

>Are you proud to know the protection of your pride is enough of an excuse to
>slaughter thousands of innocent people?

>Do you accept/believe that murdering innocent people actually assists in reducing the
>hatred towards America and your cushy lifestyle?

It's funny how you attack those claims with all guns blazing and then say "well, those claims are only excuses and they're not really valid." And then claim I'm naive for thinking them.

But excellent form for Speaker's Corner, where discourse comes to die.

[rehmwa 2]

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Speaker's Corner, where discourse comes to die.

I think that, although we could expand on this excellent quote and have fun with it - I prefer this pithy version

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[doi 0]

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There is too many whistle blowers, witnesses and evidence that the official story is incorrect, but if you say that you are called a nutcase by people like you.

Like I suspected. Another conspiracy theorist who thinks he knows it all.

Do you realise you are describing yourself there?

I ask questions, as true agnostic will. Anybody that asks questions for clarification is clearly not a know it all.

Anyone that thinks they have the answer all the time is a know it all.

Know it all's usually cling to the majority to gain the acceptance from the majority, thn thy can feel assured. This sense of assurance is only percieved. That is your approach. I used to think like you but used common sense and evidence rather than simply believing what I have been told.

I have been lied to for decades, so I have grown accustomed to not being too sure about anything; this is something everybody should try. You will not be as easily lead astray if you think critically about everything, especially things yu are asked or told not to think critically about.

You are either with us, or you are with the Terr'ists.

You have answers to things even the most high profile experts cannot openly and honestly answer, apparently.

I could ask you what you think of Nanothermite, the Gulf of Tonkin or The Zapruder Film you will know exactly where those questions are going and will attempt to ridicule me for asking the question instead of answering it, you will refuse to actually address the answer for each of those points as you KNOW the story you have been bread to believe has been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be complete lies, just like our old favourites, the weapons of Mass destruction..

Then your buddies will come along and do the same.

Then it becomes a he said she said argument with straw man techniques and personal attacks.

Everything but addressing the evidence and thinking critically about it.

You won't actually address the question; you will attack me or the person that presents the question and deliver the official conspiracy ‘theory’ as fact. Your mindset is common and is usually a majority but in no way correct.

This is happening in many forums the world around inline, unofficial and official.
Usually greed and corruption prevails, so it is the safe bet.

This still happens when the evidence is so overwhelming that it cannot be argued against, so ridicule, ignorance and denial are all that are left to defend the know it all standpoint.

Every person, whatever they have decided to believe, is a conspiracy theorist. Unless they believe that any of these high profile crimes were carried out single handed by one person, such as the JFK assassination.

Do you understand the definition of the term conspiracy theorist, or do you just use it like every other denier does to sidestep your own internal conflict with your morality?

You throw that accusation around as if it does not apply to yourself.

That makes you the conspiracy theorist know it all.

Does it not?

We are both talking to brick wall so no point in taking the debate any further.

[jimbrown 0]

[replyYeah, I suppose so. I'm just sorry that so many people choose the interpretation that makes no sense. Some of those people even vote.

[doi 0]

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It's funny how you attack those claims with all guns blazing and then say "well, those claims are only excuses and they're not really valid." And then claim I'm naive for thinking them.

Yes they are excuses and I understand that.

You presented them as valid reason for being at war, to consider them valid reasons you have to have a reason to think that way.

My questions to you were questioning your reasoning, not mine.

[DanG 1]

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Hey, it's your choice and to be honest sometimes I wish I didn't know about 85% of what I know.

I think the rest of us wish you knew 15% of what you think you know.

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Ignorance is bliss they say.

You seem like a happy guy.

- Dan G

[434 2]

When the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

[DanG 1]

If a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,470]

>You presented them as valid reason for being at war . . .

Nope. I presented them to you as choices. Choose one, or all, or none. Your choice.

[doi 0]

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Nope. I presented them to you as choices. Choose one, or all, or none. Your choice.

Ok, I know many people used these excuses. Most often that comes down to what they have been told (by the media and politicians) and are too apathetic or stoic to know anything else.

Some (in particular many that write here) that profess to have a deep understanding of such matters still use these excuses and therefore are only exposing themselves as the fraudulent sentinels of the official conspiracy theories.

When we fail to question the motives and reason for such important issues such as foreign policy and plain old mass murder, then we have lost everything that our ancestors have given their lives and souls to achieve for us.

Only when our cushy lifestyles are removed will people decide to give a damn, most cannot foresee the imminent suffering that must take place for everybody to continue our current path.Once that suffering is on your own doorstep, it is usually too late.

That is what worries me.

Life goes on however, but not for everybody...