muff528 3 #176 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteps. you're the one calling them 'concentration camps' - not me... By "you" I meant "a person". No one has to call them anything. They are what they are. yes, refugee camps. concentration camps - as you are well aware - has a special connotation which you invoke when using the term... Yes ...it does. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #177 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuotepps. neighbouring countries went to war for the palestinians. they lost - but you can't say they didn't try to help... The "neighboring countries" did/do not give a damn about the Palestinians. Never have. They went to war to eliminate Israel and they continue to use the Pals as expendable chess pieces in their efforts. I can't see into their hearts and minds but I can see what they have said and done and and what they continue to say and do. Same for the Israelis. I don't know how many different ways I can say that the Islamic Middle Eastern countries, to include non-Arabs as well, are using the Palestinians' condition, mostly caused by them, to incite hatred against Israel and to rally sympathy for their "cause". a while back you could have said that the european countries were using the jews' condition, mostly caused by them, to incite hatred against germany and rally sympathy for their zionist cause. you can say all sorts of twisted things. just because a people have had an injustice done to them doesn't mean they can then return that injustice to a different people... Yes, a lot of things can be said. But what happened was that the "proto-Nazis" et al. were using their own condition to blame and incite hatred against the Jews. The already growing anti-semitism in 19th C Europe (and Eastern Europe) was conveniently used to rally sympathy for the growing National Socialist movement. The Ottomans, who were aligned with them through the 1st WW and again during WW2 learned a lot from their Nazi allies. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jgoose71 0 #178 May 31, 2011 Quote just because a people have had an injustice done to them doesn't mean they can then return that injustice to a different people... You have hit the nail on the head hear. Yes, Palestinians have been wronged, but that was over 70 years ago. Peace has been offered many times, but they won't accept it. With over 7,000 rockets a year being launched into civilian populations by Palestinians, it's hard for any peace deal to move forward. When the PLO can stop kidnapping Israeli's and launching rockets into Israel after a cease fire has been negotiated, then there might be peace. This has been a problem since Carter was president."There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss." Life, the Universe, and Everything Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #179 May 31, 2011 Quote>Just as long as you realize that land proposed to be given to the >Palestinians was not the land owned by the Palestinians in the first place. >Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Egypt were the rightful occupiers of that land. Just as the Sioux, Comanche, Navajo and Inuit are the rightful occupiers of the US. Fortunately, we've found a way to live in peace with them - although it took a long, long time. Well, they have found a way to live in peace with us. They have largely given up their culture and land in exchange for peace. Not trying to be judgmental ...it is just what happened. But I don't see your point here. Jordan, Syria, Egypt did not give up the land in the interest of peace. They used that land to stage a massive military buildup for the purpose of ending the state of Israel and they lost it. They did not try to take it back because they understood that they would get their asses waxed if they tried ...so they said "Let the Palestinians have it". They should have given it to the Pals pre-1967. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #180 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQ. WAS THERE A PALESTINIAN STATE BEFORE 1948 OR NOT? A. Palestine should have been created if Jews did not start migrating to Palestinian lands, with the help of the British. http://www.palestinehistory.com/history/faq/faq.htm#faq14 So says a clearly partisan site, and even it can't help contradict itself. If it wasn't created, it didn't have lands. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #181 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote'Israel has not been secure since its inception' it had the backing of the un and the world's superpower - of course it was secure. not safe perhaps - but secure... How well did that work for the victims of genocide in Rwanda or Yugoslavia? Both occurred in the 90s. both rwanda and yugoslavia still exist (i've given you an easy hook there to reply to)... so easy, what's the point? Give a less insipid argument first. And btw, how old is your map that still shows Yugoslavia on it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,406 #182 May 31, 2011 >When the PLO can stop kidnapping Israeli's and launching rockets into >Israel after a cease fire has been negotiated, then there might be peace. And when Israelis stop training their children to hate Palestinians, there might be peace as well. Any solution that involves holding one side blameless will fail miserably. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #183 May 31, 2011 Quote>When the PLO can stop kidnapping Israeli's and launching rockets into >Israel after a cease fire has been negotiated, then there might be peace. And when Israelis stop training their children to hate Palestinians, there might be peace as well. Any solution that involves holding one side blameless will fail miserably. So what are your thoughts on the brutal stabbing murders of the Fogal Family recently? And the celebrations that went on in Gaza, passing out candy... as was done on 9/11? http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/22697/Default.aspx The photographs were taken as evidence by security personnel following the attack, and include wrenching images of Uri Fogel and his 3-month-old daughter, Hadas, whose throats were slit as they slept; Yoav Fogel, 11, who was attacked and murdered while he read in bed; and 3-year-old Elad Fogel, who was stabbed twice in the heart as he slept. Because, until Hamas is gone... there will be no peace. You can't negotiate with those who want to exterminate you... ...you can only manage the situation, and defend yourself. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #184 May 31, 2011 QuotePalestine should have been created if Jews did not start migrating to Palestinian lands, with the help of the British. With the HELP of the British? Are you saying the British, wanted, the Jews there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Abedy 0 #185 May 31, 2011 QuoteThis is great too: Barack Obama’s top 10 insults against Britain http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/nilegardiner/100027838/barack-obama%E2%80%99s-top-10-insults-against-britain/ OMG, what a shitload full of whining. Next thing you should dig up is Obama watching "Little Britain" or something.The sky is not the limit. The ground is. The Society of Skydiving Ducks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #186 May 31, 2011 QuoteMy post that you quoted was about emotion and in your reply you seem very emotional yourself. Cause its not related to an emotional response. Obama's "true colors" were already evident, people saw what they wanted to see... now they are becoming even more evident. QuoteAll of the stuff you're throwing against the wall (Rashid Khalidii, Churchill's bust, anti-colonialism, black liberation theology) - it's a laundry list of talking points. It does not seem very considered, and it has the effect of making it seem like you're struggling to justify your underlying hatred for the guy. Ok... How about getting us into a third war, in a third Muslim country... AND violating the (unconstitutional) War Powers Act? How much money have we spent there so far...? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #187 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteIsrael is the Keystone of Western Civilization. Israel must not fall... I will explain. What a load of crap I don't think you understand what I mean by, Keystone. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DanG 1 #188 May 31, 2011 QuoteI don't think you understand what I mean by, Keystone. And I expect it will take you at least five pages of childish word games to explain yourself. - Dan G Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dmcoco84 4 #189 May 31, 2011 Childish word games? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #190 May 31, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote 'Israel has not been secure since its inception' it had the backing of the un and the world's superpower - of course it was secure. not safe perhaps - but secure... How well did that work for the victims of genocide in Rwanda or Yugoslavia? Both occurred in the 90s. both rwanda and yugoslavia still exist (i've given you an easy hook there to reply to)... so easy, what's the point? Give a less insipid argument first. And btw, how old is your map that still shows Yugoslavia on it? went for the hook we now have the new states of serbia and croatia (and a few others) same as soon we'll have the new state of palestine alongside israel...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #191 May 31, 2011 QuoteChildish word games? is this letter true? QuoteThe following is an excerpt from MIN HAMETZAR (p. 92) by Rabbi Michael Dov Weissmandl ZT"L Dean of Nitra Yeshiva The excerpt is a literal translation of the letter the Jewish Rescue Committee in Czechoslovakia received from the Zionist "Jewish" Agency Executive Offices in Switzerland. This was in reply to the call of the Jewish Rescue Committee for help, with documentary evidence furnished, concerning the fate of millions of Jewish people in Nazi occupied Europe. "We are writing to remind you of the one factor of which you must never lose sight: that ultimately, the Allies will win the war. After their victory, territorial boundaries will be reshaped as they were after the First World War. Then, the way will be clear for our purpose at this time, with the war drawing to a close, we must do everything in our power to change Eretz Yisroel to Medinat Yisrael and many steps have already been taken in this regard. Therefore, we must turn a deaf ear to the pleas and cries emanating from Eastern Europe. Remember this: all the allies have suffered many losses, and if we also do not offer human sacrifices, how can we gain the right to sit at the conference table when the territorial boundaries are reshaped? Accordingly, it is foolhardy and brazen for us to negotiate in terms of money or supplies in exchange for Jewish lives. How dare we ask of the allied powers to barter money for lives while they are sustaining heavy casualties daily? So, insofar as the masses are concerned: RAK B'DAM TIHJE LANU HAAREZ, (Eretz Yisroel will be ours only by paying with blood), but as far as our immediate circle is concerned, ATEM TAJLU. The messenger bearing this letter will supply you with funds for this purpose".stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #192 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteps. you're the one calling them 'concentration camps' - not me... By "you" I meant "a person". No one has to call them anything. They are what they are. yes, refugee camps. concentration camps - as you are well aware - has a special connotation which you invoke when using the term... Yes ...it does. in that case you're just being silly...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #193 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuotePalestine should have been created if Jews did not start migrating to Palestinian lands, with the help of the British. With the HELP of the British? Are you saying the British, wanted, the Jews there? QuoteIn 1896, Theodor Herzl, a Jewish journalist living in Austria-Hungary, published Der Judenstaat ("The Jewish State"), in which he asserted that the only solution to the "Jewish Question" in Europe, including growing antisemitism, was through the establishment of a Jewish State. Political Zionism had just been born. A year later, Herzl founded the Zionist Organization (ZO), which at its first congress, "called for the establishment of a home for the Jewish people in Palestine secured under public law". Serviceable means to attain that goal included the promotion of Jewish settlement there, the organization of Jews in the diaspora, the strengthening of Jewish feeling and consciousness, and preparatory steps to attain those necessary governmental grants. By the end of the First World War, Great Britain had the British Mandate for Palestine. The issuance of the Balfour Declaration greatly increased the immigration of Jews to Palestine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1917_Balfour_Declarationstay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #194 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuote just because a people have had an injustice done to them doesn't mean they can then return that injustice to a different people... You have hit the nail on the head hear. Yes, Palestinians have been wronged, so you're happy to let the palestinians pay the price for the european holocaust of the jews...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #195 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteps. you're the one calling them 'concentration camps' - not me... By "you" I meant "a person". No one has to call them anything. They are what they are. yes, refugee camps. concentration camps - as you are well aware - has a special connotation which you invoke when using the term... Yes ...it does. in that case you're just being silly... Really? Are you suggesting that the Palestinian "refugees" have chosen to live in camps for over a half century (and at least 3 to 4 generations) in poverty and in such wretched conditions when all they had to do was walk out and live in peace and equality among their deliverers? Don't you think it would have been much easier for them to join society in their rescuer's countries while working with them and petitioning and negotiating and planning attacks in their effort to reclaim "that which was taken"? Well, if they had a choice. The only difference between the so-called "refugee camps" and "concentration camps" is the fact that the Arabs don't even care enough about them to get their hands dirty eliminating them as long as they remain confined in their squalor and don't pollute their world. And the UN and human rights weenies don't seem to hold them accountable anyway so why bother with providing humane conditions. ...But most importantly, they can invoke the Palestinian condition for sympathy and hand-wringing by the appeasers and Jew-haters of the world while they continue in their efforts to eliminate Israel. They need the Palestinians to live ...but they need them to live in misery. That is the only reason they haven't followed the Nazi model. Well, that and they don't really care. ...and they'd have to get a pretty big mob together, and ... So, yes, ...other than the proactive gassing or head rolling or body-part swapping they are concentration camps, IMO. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #196 May 31, 2011 Quote so you're happy to let the palestinians pay the price for the european holocaust of the jews... It was a WORLD war, and Amazon has already noted that the Arabs were participants. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #197 May 31, 2011 Quote Quote Quote Quote Quote 'Israel has not been secure since its inception' it had the backing of the un and the world's superpower - of course it was secure. not safe perhaps - but secure... How well did that work for the victims of genocide in Rwanda or Yugoslavia? Both occurred in the 90s. both rwanda and yugoslavia still exist (i've given you an easy hook there to reply to)... so easy, what's the point? Give a less insipid argument first. And btw, how old is your map that still shows Yugoslavia on it? went for the hook we now have the new states of serbia and croatia (and a few others) same as soon we'll have the new state of palestine alongside israel... so if we can follow your tortured chain of logic - it's ok if half of the Jews (or Palestinians) are murdered, since we'll end up with two states at the end? Was this the brilliant conclusion you wanted us to see? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Amazon 7 #198 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuote so you're happy to let the palestinians pay the price for the european holocaust of the jews... It was a WORLD war, and Amazon has already noted that the Arabs were participants. Funny how that works... you LOSE a war after committing heinous acts against your foe... you tend to lose your land.. yeah that sucks... its been happening like that for how many millenia? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
muff528 3 #199 May 31, 2011 QuoteQuoteQuote just because a people have had an injustice done to them doesn't mean they can then return that injustice to a different people... You have hit the nail on the head hear. Yes, Palestinians have been wronged, so you're happy to let the palestinians pay the price for the european holocaust of the jews... A case could be made that the Arab's alliance with Hitler might have made them somewhat complicit in the Holocaust. (I wonder if their shared interest in "Jew-hating" was a factor in their alignment with the Nazis during WW2 and the Ottoman's alliance with anti-semitic factions prior to WW1? Just wondering.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #200 May 31, 2011 Quotethe only reason they haven't followed the Nazi model. so not really concentration camps then. why not call them refugee camps which is what they are and dump the hypberbole?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
