diverborg 0 #26 May 19, 2011 Quote Quote How did the tax cuts on the rich contribute to the financial collapse? ... Seriously I will do my best to keep an open mind on this one, if you can give me a legitimate arguement. the rich don't consume all their money (they have an excess over needs) and want - at all times - to get a return on their savings. when the post war worker/non worker tax balance tilted too far to the rich they got their hands on too much money for the financial market to give them all a return. hence they squeezed and squeezed for the market to be de-regulated in their favour and squeezed and leveraged (another way of saying they created more 'money') into every market inflating it until the promised returns on their 'investments' couldn't be delivered (not enough money in the system) and the whole shebang crashed. the housing market was just the last note in the melody - sure we can make money out of poor tenants, just watch us - not. I do follow your logic, but I think you're logic is based on a lot poor assumptions, while ignoring many other facts. I really think you could remove the whole "tax-cut" portion of that arguement and say the same thing "its the riches fault". As much as I try to connect your dots, the tax-cuts you mention don't seem to be the smoking gun to me. A few things to ponder.. If I have 500 jumps and I go out and buy a velcity67, and kill myself on the next jump, am I responsible for any of my actions, or do you feel that PD should take all the blame, and I'm just a victim of a ruthless canopy designer trying to make money? So we could go into a long drawn out debate on what triggered the housing bubble in the first place, and probably come up with very differing opinions. You say tax cuts, I don't want to ignore fannie and freddie and the fact that we originally pressured banks to loan to "everybody". Yes I'm aware once the bubble began banks saw $$ and took advantage of that. But lets keep it basic and say in order for there to be a crisis in the first place, many folks would have to be foreclosing on their homes rapidly. Assuming I'm facing foreclosure I either... 1. Took out a loan for a primary home that I simply failed to pay back (sounds like I might share in some of that blame) 2. I never had the money in the first place to pay the loan, but I was riding the housing bubble hoping that the rise in value then flipping the house would exceed anything I had to pay on the house. Sounds like I was taking a gamble and lost (which would mean that I share the blame). Sure the banks gave me the loan assuming that the revenue I made off the house would be enough not to foreclose not caring whether my current income was enough to make the payments. So yeah they share the blame, but I still took the loan, and I made the gamble. However, this isn't really any different to business loans banks give out. If I present a business plan to the bank and ask for $100,000 to start my own cafe, they don't care if I have the current income to pay that #100,000, they are gambling on whether my business will be successful. I don't think it would be good for this country to cease all business loans because we feel banks are evil and greedy. The housing market wasn't really different, people had business plans that were paying off like mad, till it all goes pop!! Plenty of blame to go around from the homebuyer, to the lender, to the govt for originally pressuring banks to expand their lending. Tax cuts? That's a hard game of connect the dots to fit that into the equation, but it seems you've been able to do so in your mind. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #27 May 19, 2011 QuoteIf you want more then work more. like those bankers that we bailed out. they really worked hard didn't they?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #28 May 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you want more then work more. like those bankers that we bailed out. they really worked hard didn't they? You're right, they barely got their GED, got hired at daddy's bank somehow and sit behind a desk all day in a fancy suit twittling their thumbs and thinking about how they can screw the next guy over and not have to do anything. I'm sure they never had to put in any hard work or time to get to their current status in life. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #29 May 19, 2011 Quotepeople had business plans that were paying off like mad, till it all goes pop!! that's when the money in the financial system couldn't cover all the promises the rich had made with one another and more money had to be created - hence quantitative easing to cover those promises.stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #30 May 19, 2011 Quotethinking about how they can screw the next guy over and not have to do anything. excellent description of bankers modus operandi...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #31 May 19, 2011 QuoteQuoteIf you want more then work more. like those bankers that we bailed out. they really worked hard didn't they? Different topic all together and one we would probably agree on. They should have reaped what they sowed and been allowed to fail. If my buisness fails because of my bad decisions no one will be there to bail us out nor should there be. It will be up to me to dust myself off and start over. MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #32 May 19, 2011 QuoteIf my buisness fails because of my bad decisions no one will be there to bail us out nor should there be. It will be up to me to dust myself off and start over. and if you have children - they should just starve? all business is risk - so a business can fail without any 'bad' decisions being taken. what about if you can't afford health insurance and then fall ill? how can you then 'dust yourself off'?stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #33 May 19, 2011 QuoteQuotepeople had business plans that were paying off like mad, till it all goes pop!! that's when the money in the financial system couldn't cover all the promises the rich had made with one another and more money had to be created - hence quantitative easing to cover those promises. I feel I should clarify one thing. I did not support the "bailouts". But, you can call it what you want (passing money around between the rich), the bailouts purpose was to free up credit so you and I can keep buying stuff we can't afford and also extend lines of credit to businesses to keep them from closing up in order to keep our economy from freezing up. Also normally those defaulted investements would've been insured so banks would've collected lost money anyway, but when the financial insurance company runs out of money to pay those claims, then they fail along with the banks which is exactly what happened. A lot went wrong, far beyond what you're willing to accept. Blame whoever you want, but dont forget that, if everyone would've paid the banks back what they borrowed from them in the first place, there would never have been "bailouts". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 1 #34 May 19, 2011 Then I better make damn sure that doesn't happen and if it does happen I better have planned for it. I have a years supply of food for me my wife and my kids. I have fishing poles and firearms. We have 6 months household budget in a seperate bank account. I have worked since I was 6 years old. I have delivered newspapers and scrubbed toilets and even picked up aluminum cans. What I have never done is take a penny of welfare.... If a "what if" happens all I can hope is I have done my best to prepare for it and trust that no matter what everything will work out exaclty how it is suppossed to MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #35 May 19, 2011 Quotedont forget that, if everyone would've paid the banks back what they borrowed from them in the first place, there would never have been "bailouts". there was no chance of the poor paying back. and remember that if the rich hadn't of had so many tax cuts it wouldn't be us paying now for their bailout - or borrowing so much from china...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
diverborg 0 #36 May 19, 2011 Quote Quote dont forget that, if everyone would've paid the banks back what they borrowed from them in the first place, there would never have been "bailouts". there was no chance of the poor paying back. and remember that if the rich hadn't of had so many tax cuts it wouldn't be us paying now for their bailout - or borrowing so much from china... And around and around we go...Anway this could go on forever. Good talk, I think I've said all that I feel like saying. Cheers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #37 May 19, 2011 see ya stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,123 #38 May 19, 2011 QuoteI have had absolutly nothing in my life and today I have more then I need. When I had nothing I asked for nothing nor took anything but now that I have something i'm suppossed to give it away? WTF is wrong with that picture. Really? No schooling at all? Never used roads? Didn't live in an area served by police, firefighters paramedics? Didn't live in a country protected by military? Somebody paid while you were "freeloading". Now that you have something, isn't it time to "help" the next "freeloader"? Noblesse Oblige. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #39 May 19, 2011 QuoteQuotedont forget that, if everyone would've paid the banks back what they borrowed from them in the first place, there would never have been "bailouts". there was no chance of the poor paying back. and remember that if the rich hadn't of had so many tax cuts it wouldn't be us paying now for their bailout - or borrowing so much from china... the numbers and reality don't support your assertions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #40 May 19, 2011 >excellent description of bankers modus operandi... As accurate as "all skydivers have a death wish, and just jump out of airplanes so they can wait till the last second to pull their string." I saw that on TV once. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #41 May 20, 2011 skydivers didn't crash the financial system and then make us pay for their bailout... ...that was the rich and their banking friends (did you see that on tv)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #42 May 20, 2011 QuoteDomestically, over the last three decades the rich have systematically expropriated the middle-class’s sizable and hard-earned wealth. It has been the most massive transfer of wealth in the nation’s history, with the gravest consequences. It has been a period of legalized robbery. The decades following WWII witnessed the middle-class accumulating significant wealth as measured in the pride of home ownership, the glamour of a new car, the accomplishment of sending one’s kid to college, the security of good health and assured retirement. It was a period marked by the narrowest income gap separating the rich and the poor in the nation’s history. It fostered the great social, legal, technological and cultural movements that distinguish the post-war era -- civil rights, Roe v. Wade, a man on the moon and the counterculture. Today, the U.S. is stuck, confronting an historical sea change. Most Americans live at the intersection of earning the next dollar and paying the latest bill. This is the powerful vice of the Big Squeeze, of financial uncertainty and doubt, of living holding one’s breath. Nearly everyone feels squeezed by the Big Squeeze, excepting, of course, those rolling in dough or too naïve to care. http://www.alternet.org/economy/151016/the_big_squeeze%3A_how_americans_are_being_crushed_by_financial_insecurity_and_doubt/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #43 May 21, 2011 Hmm - Yahoo says the 400 people with the highest income in the US paid an average of 17% in taxes in 2010. Last I checked, 17% isn't 59%, unless you're debating someone who attended public school in the US. Took me 12 seconds flat to actually look that up on the Internet. Of course, it's not as politically charged as your numbers, so it's not as much fun ...Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SivaGanesha 2 #44 May 21, 2011 Quote The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing. If they used the word in bold they owe beer. End of story. "It's hard to have fun at 4-way unless your whole team gets down to the ground safely to do it again!"--Northern California Skydiving League re USPA Safety Day, March 8, 2014 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #45 May 21, 2011 QuoteHmm - Yahoo says the 400 people with the highest income in the US paid an average of 17% in taxes in 2010. Last I checked, 17% isn't 59%, unless you're debating someone who attended public school in the US. Took me 12 seconds flat to actually look that up on the Internet. Of course, it's not as politically charged as your numbers, so it's not as much fun ... In point of fact, for the anecdote to match the latest figures from the IRS (2008 is the last year they have the breakdowns for), the 10th guy would have paid $70 for his share of the beer - maybe you should have used that 12 seconds to get educated on the difference between income tax rate and percentage of total tax paid.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #46 May 21, 2011 QuoteForty years ago, wealthy Americans financed the U.S. government mainly through their tax payments. Today wealthy Americans finance the government mainly by lending it money. While foreigners own most of our national debt, over 40 percent is owned by Americans – mostly the very wealthy. This great switch by the super rich – from paying the government taxes to lending the government money – has gone almost unnoticed. But it’s critical for understanding the budget predicament we’re now in. And for getting out of it. Over that four decades, tax rates on the very rich have plummeted. Between the end of World War II and 1980, the top tax bracket remained over 70 percent — and even after deductions and credits was well over 50 percent. Now it’s 36 percent. As recently as the late 1980s, the capital gains rate was 35 percent. Now it’s 15 percent. Not only are rates lower now, but loopholes are bigger. 18,000 households earning more than a half-million dollars last year paid no income taxes at all. In recent years, according to the IRS, the richest 400 Americans have paid only 18 percent of their total incomes in federal income taxes. http://www.alternet.org/economy/150995/the_great_switch_by_the_super_rich%3A_how_wealthy_americans_started_paying_so_little_in_taxes/stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #47 May 21, 2011 >Today wealthy Americans finance the government mainly by lending it >money. While foreigners own most of our national debt, over 40 percent is >owned by Americans – mostly the very wealthy. Cool. So next time you see someone rich, thank him for bankrolling all those government programs you support. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #48 May 21, 2011 Quote>Today wealthy Americans finance the government mainly by lending it >money. While foreigners own most of our national debt, over 40 percent is >owned by Americans – mostly the very wealthy. Cool. So next time you see someone rich, thank him for bankrolling all those government programs you support. if they paid their fair share in taxes we wouldn't have to borrow money to pay the bankers bailout would we? glad to see that you still think the rich can do no wrong...stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,400 #49 May 21, 2011 >if they paid their fair share in taxes They pay something like 90% of the taxes - so they pay more than their fair share. >we wouldn't have to borrow money to pay the bankers bailout would we? We wouldn't have had to bail out anyone if people who agreed to pay their mortgages didn't renege on that agreement. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dreamdancer 0 #50 May 21, 2011 Quote>if they paid their fair share in taxes They pay something like 90% of the taxes - so they pay more than their fair share. >we wouldn't have to borrow money to pay the bankers bailout would we? We wouldn't have had to bail out anyone if people who agreed to pay their mortgages didn't renege on that agreement. you still haven't worked out have you that there wasn't enough money in the entire system for that mortgage money to be repaid... (if only those jews hadn't got into those carriages)stay away from moving propellers - they bite blue skies from thai sky adventures good solid response-provoking keyboarding Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
