Seat-belt usage?

[dorbie 0]

Quote

Quote

The reason for the "wearing helmets" rule is that in a crash, the helmet becomes a projectile and plows into someone else. It's not to protect the wearer's head.

But it could act as a projectile to persons sitting right next to the individual with the helmet on their lap fastened to the chest strap or injure the person themself - Many camera guys fasten to their chest strap - personally I wear mine...

It has less chance for speed differential to build.

Place your fist 1/4 inch from a wall and punch as hard as you can. Now step back give yourself 3 feet and take a good hard swing at it. Get back to us on the difference in outcome when you can type again.

[divnswoop 0]

Quote

Place your fist 1/4 inch from a wall and punch as hard as you can. Now step back give yourself 3 feet and take a good hard swing at it. Get back to us on the difference in outcome when you can type again.

...I'm pretty sure the people who had 2 camera helmets flying at them in the Perris otter don't think your experiment is realistic of a plane crash.

[itllclear 1]

It will be interesting to see the recent Otter crash investigation.

Might different types of restraints made a difference?

BSBD

Harry

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The reason for the "wearing helmets" rule is that in a crash, the helmet becomes a projectile and plows into someone else. It's not to protect the wearer's head.

But it could act as a projectile to persons sitting right next to the individual with the helmet on their lap fastened to the chest strap or injure the person themself - Many camera guys fasten to their chest strap - personally I wear mine...

It has less chance for speed differential to build.

Place your fist 1/4 inch from a wall and punch as hard as you can. Now step back give yourself 3 feet and take a good hard swing at it. Get back to us on the difference in outcome when you can type again.

Irrelevant - the physics of a crash and your experiment scenario are quite different.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

It will be interesting to see the recent Otter crash investigation.

Might different types of restraints made a difference?

BSBD

Harry

A true crash (as opposed to a "crash-landing") will generate accelerations of hundreds of "G"s, and no seat belt made will make a difference. Even if the belt held, it would create massive internal injuries in the person restrained..

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[itllclear 1]

Quote

A true crash (as opposed to a "crash-landing") will generate accelerations of hundreds of "G"s, and no seat belt made will make a difference. Even if the belt held, it would create massive internal injuries in the person restrained..

If it were a crash where the tail was compressed into the nose, true. In some cases the G loads are much less. I would be surprised if the NTSB does not estimate the G loads in this one.

As per http://www.stapp.org/stapp.shtml humnan volunteers tested belts to 28 G, apparently without injury. Stapp himself endured 40 G on one test.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[divnswoop 0]

I hope everybody in the St. Louis accident was wearing their seatbelts. Unfortunately, that makes 3 Otters that I have jumped from that no-longer fly due to accidents.

So, those 19 who replied that "it's your choice" OR "encouraged not to" I have a question. What do you feel are the benifits of not wearing your seatbelt? Or do you not care about it and it's your right not to do it? I guess it seems like such a simple thing that takes less than a minute not to mention its a FAR

[itllclear 1]

Quote

not to mention its a FAR

§ 91.107(a)(3) ..., each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft ... must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.

"Harry, why did you land all the way out there? Nobody else landed out there."

"Your statement answered your question."

[kallend 1,623]

Quote

Quote

A true crash (as opposed to a "crash-landing") will generate accelerations of hundreds of "G"s, and no seat belt made will make a difference. Even if the belt held, it would create massive internal injuries in the person restrained..

If it were a crash where the tail was compressed into the nose, true. In some cases the G loads are much less. I would be surprised if the NTSB does not estimate the G loads in this one.

As per http://www.stapp.org/stapp.shtml humnan volunteers tested belts to 28 G, apparently without injury. Stapp himself endured 40 G on one test.

But aircraft seat belts do not have to withstand 40Gs, or even 28Gs, to be certifiable.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Nightingale 0]

At Perris, I usually see seatbelts on everybody, and the occasional person holding their helmet, who sometimes gets a friendly nudge and then clips it through their seatbelt or chest strap if they don't want to wear it.

[slug 1]

Quote

I hope everybody in the St. Louis accident was wearing their seatbelts. Unfortunately, that makes 3 Otters that I have jumped from that no-longer fly due to accidents.

So, those 19 who replied that "it's your choice" OR "encouraged not to" I have a question. What do you feel are the benifits of not wearing your seatbelt? Or do you not care about it and it's your right not to do it? I guess it seems like such a simple thing that takes less than a minute not to mention its a FAR

Screw the FAR

If your in your own car/plane by your self and don't want to wear your seat belt be my guest.

But don't do it when your with others because your selfish lazy ass will hurt others when there's a incident and thats not a decision thats your to make.

R.I.P.

[flyangel2 2]

I see I'm not the only Helmet/Seat Belt Nazi.

If there are people around me that don't have a seat belt on or their helmet strapped in or on their head, I sure let them know to do some thing about the situation.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[slug 1]

Quote

I see I'm not the only Helmet/Seat Belt Nazi.

If there are people around me that don't have a seat belt on or their helmet strapped in or on their head, I sure let them know to do some thing about the situation.

were you the lady at Z-hill about 4 yr's ago arguing with another women about her not wanting to hook up her seat belt. It got very heated, but the seatbelt did get hooked up prior to TO.

Someone wants to play with their nickel .

Wonder what Dan BC thinks about seat belts

R.I.P.

R.I.P.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

were you the lady at Z-hill about 4 yr's ago arguing with another women about her not wanting to hook up her seat belt. It got very heated, but the seatbelt did get hooked up prior to TO.

If you had met this Lady before you would remember it. Trust me.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[wildman2231 0]

Pretty silly really. I've raced cars,motorcycles.bicycles,skateboards,damn near everything with wheels. GUESS WHAT!
SEATBELTS WORK!
HELMETS WORK!
BOOTS,GLOVES,PADS WORK!
ROLLBARS WORK! (don't jump with this one)
AIRBAGS WORK!..hmmmm.
I believe in our right to choose in the good "ol USA.
BUT IN AN AIRPLANE your ASS is the last thing I want to cross my mind in an accident. FAR's are right on this one folks.
P.S.! YOU CAN LEARN ALOT FROM A DUMMY!
Blue Skies.....
edited to add:yea on the projectile bit! and have you ever wrecked anything at high speed? You'd wear it in the air with no vehicle, falling 120 or 170mph. But not on takeoff? And PLEASE! dont call me on your cellphone in freefall! It sounds like crap!

I'm fine...crazy people don't know they're crazy...No,Really!

[divnswoop 0]

Plenty of votes for not wearing seat-belts.......still would like to hear a benefit to not wearing them.....I was at a DZ not long ago that has had a plane crash in the past year AND had the FAA come down on them for breaking a FAR's......I would think they would MAKE their staff wear seatbelts at this point.....but some didn't, even after handing them the loose seatbelt! .....

[dorbie 0]

Quote

Irrelevant - the physics of a crash and your experiment scenario are quite different.

I maintain it's not irrelevant if both seated parties are restrained with the helmet on one vs a helmet which is not subject to the deceleration over time of the airframe via the chest strap. The relative velocity and subsequent impact force of the helmet would build over time vs the helmet attached to a chest strap. It's a pretty obvious justification for securing your helmet, it absolutely can make a difference.

[mjosparky 3]

Quote

Quote

Irrelevant - the physics of a crash and your experiment scenario are quite different.

I maintain it's not irrelevant if both seated parties are restrained with the helmet on one vs a helmet which is not subject to the deceleration over time of the airframe via the chest strap. The relative velocity and subsequent impact force of the helmet would build over time vs the helmet attached to a chest strap. It's a pretty obvious justification for securing your helmet, it absolutely can make a difference.

WARNING WARNING:

Physics is not something you will enjoy debating with this man. You will lose.

My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals

[dorbie 0]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Irrelevant - the physics of a crash and your experiment scenario are quite different.

I maintain it's not irrelevant if both seated parties are restrained with the helmet on one vs a helmet which is not subject to the deceleration over time of the airframe via the chest strap. The relative velocity and subsequent impact force of the helmet would build over time vs the helmet attached to a chest strap. It's a pretty obvious justification for securing your helmet, it absolutely can make a difference.

WARNING WARNING:

Physics is not something you will enjoy debating with this man. You will lose.

I'm well aware of his position thanks.

Like any analogy you can look for the similarities or you can pretend there are none. In this case the force applied over a longer period of time before impact does increase the impact velocity. They are not identical scenarios, but my "experiment" was illustrative, IMHO. Opinions clearly differ, I just strongly object to anyone saying that a helmet secured to a chest strap is not that different from one flying loose. It just isn't true, which is where I came in and what I was trying to illustrate. Kallend's objection has some justification but I don't think the lesson is useless.

[popsjumper 2]

Geez...those voting "...your choice..." and .."encouraged not to use it..." MUST be non-US people ...they GOTTA be...please tell me that.

I mean how many skydiving idiots do we really have in the US? No, don't tell me...I would be devastated to actually know, I'm sure.
Should I remain blissfully ignorant?

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[jackpearson 0]

When i was in Perris everyone did both till 1000 and in England helmets are compulsary till 1500 so i dont know where all these other statistics are coming from. If a seatbelt is there for gods sake use it, the sport is risky enough as it is.

[MrFreefall383 0]

Quote

Everyone wears a seat belt, and most people wear helmets too.
I think seat belt usage on taxi/takeoff/landing is a part of FAA regulations, isn't it correct?

Based on that alone, which is 100% true, (gotta love those FAR's) everyone in every load at my DZ wears their seatbelts. Students often have to be reminded, but what student never has to be reminded of anything? The licensed jumpers always remember, nobody has to say anything. They sit down, find a good position for the ride up, and hook in.

"If at first you don't succeed... well, so much for skydiving." - aviation cliche

[Adriandavies 0]

Quote

Geez...those voting "...your choice..." and .."encouraged not to use it..." MUST be non-US people ...they GOTTA be...please tell me that.

I mean how many skydiving idiots do we really have in the US? No, don't tell me...I would be devastated to actually know, I'm sure.
Should I remain blissfully ignorant?

Well all those saying your choice etc are not chosing to join the written debate as pretty much everyone in the thread so far has said that seatbelts should be worn.

Personally I did not wear one until recently and I think this was partly out of ignorance. There are two reasons I do now. Firstly because of the Dunkeswell 206 crash last year in the UK. There was a lot of conjecture and debate saying that lives might have been saved by using seatbelts. Second a pilot at my DZ did a zero g which resulted in all the skydivers having big grins on their faces but also which shifted everyone around a great deal. I figured that if an intentional act like this can have such a large effect then an aborted take off would be even more serious.

That said seatbelts in the UK are not apparently mandatory. Helmets on take off are unless you are a camera flyer but I have never seen these restrained in the way described above.

Thanks to this thread I would say that I am now a lot more aware of the risks/benefits involved in seatbelt useage.

[Adriandavies 0]

I've just checked the BPA regs reagrding aircraft safety. They say:

1.5. All parachutists must fit helmets before take off, except in the case of parachutists jumping with camera helmets, who may fit their helmets at the most suitable time prior to jumping. (Helmets not fitted for take off should be securely located in the aircraft).

1.8. Where parachutists restraints are fitted, they are to be used during take off and landing.

From my limited experience neither of these rules appear to be enforced 100% of the time, although all none cameramen wear their helmets for takeoff up to 1500 feet.

Presumably 'Helmets not fitted for take off should be securely located in the aircraft' refers to cameramen and therefore means that their helmets should be secured by some sort of strap rather than just being kep in a persons hands.

[lekstrom10k 0]

If you are jumping a U-206 and dont have an STC for 6 jumpers, shame on you .Does your pilot really want to play squat tag on fire hydrants if and when he gets out of jail.FAA just loves to fry pilots that didnt know it was illrgal. Fayard has all that info ,Even our USPA has one for C-182s for only $20. Always remember its hard to jump if you dont have a plane or pilot. We had an incident where we were on take off and hadnt cleared the departure end of the runway,At less than 200 feet [researched] I wont mention his name but his initials start with Victor actually undid his seat belt and went to the back of the Caravan and slide the door open too. He denied this in front of the other 15 jumpers that saw it.Needless to say that was his last jump at our place and a few other DZs locally If you think about it FAA gave us the right to self regulate and they can take it away as easily.