Hiring Based on Race is Wrong...

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>So you think something that happens to ones parent or grandparents justifies
>special treatment to that person?

Nope. Like I said, in some cases it's easy. A kid who was discriminated against in 1966 has a good case that something wrong was done to him. (He would be about 50-60 now.)

In other cases it's a lot harder. A great many discrimination cases have been brought by people since then, and a great many of those have won their cases. Those are the ones who DO have good proof.

Non-sequiter. In this case even the NAACP agrees the tests are fair.

[ridestrong 1]

Dumbing down these exams is stupid... literally.


I say, give all the applicants the exact same material to study for the exam (all answers could be found in the study material). Give them all as much time as they would like to study for the exam. Those that get >/=70% pass and those that get <70% fail.. no exceptions.

If you give a group of whites a study guide for an exam on black culture/history, and a group of blacks that same study guide... the white group still has the same equal opportunity at passing the exam as the black group.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Gravitymaster 0]

Just let one of these cops who failed the exam be involved in a wrongful shooting or make a mistake that injures or kills someone and these same people who are defending lowering the test scores will be the same ones on here screaming about what idiots the cops are. You watch and see if I'm correct.

[jgoose71 0]

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Your view point is understandable. Affirmative action is a tough topic and very hard to explain as something other than reverse racism. But I support it. The following is my rationale.
If you mug somebody, take all of their possessions and beat them up, is it enough to say " ok, i wont do that again", or should you give the person their stuff back? Is it fair to say, ok, you're now naked and own nothing, but we are now equal and have the same opportunities? No..
Through slavery and Jim Crow laws which lasted nearly 200 years, blacks were forced into situations of poverty and discrimination. We systematically took away their rights and opportunities. We abused them and put them at immense economic disadvantage and can now see the resulting disparities. People who beielve in affirmative action do not think its ok to simply say " we will stop abusing you now, we are equal" and wait 200 years for blacks to catch up. Basically, we are a mile ahead, and its not fair to restart the race with blacks back at the start line. Where groups do not willingly diversify to ensure equal treatment of all hires, affirmative action is justified and necessary.

While I understand your point, I'm sure most people would agree that hiring based on race (unless you are in a state that still has affirmative action) doesn't happen to much any more. I would have to say 99.99% of the employers out there hire based on who is most qualified. I don't say 100% because I think the latest statistics show that there are about 3,000 KKK and Arian Nation twits out there hiding in the closet somewhere. America has changed dramatically. 50 years ago or earlier, race may have been an excuse, but not so much any more.

Now a days, if a man can't find a job, it's usually because of the choices he has made. Did he stay in school? Is he a felon? Is he on drugs? A child needs to be raised right to stay on the correct path. As I stated in my earlier post, the black community is falling behind in that area. Even Obama acknowledges that.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25176204/ns/politics-decision_08/

"There is an art, it says, or, rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
Life, the Universe, and Everything

[dreamdancer 0]

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the black community is falling behind in that area.

why would you say the black community is falling behind?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[metalslug 31]

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Your view point is understandable. Affirmative action is a tough topic and very hard to explain as something other than reverse racism. But I support it. The following is my rationale.
If you mug somebody, take all of their possessions and beat them up, is it enough to say " ok, i wont do that again", or should you give the person their stuff back? Is it fair to say, ok, you're now naked and own nothing, but we are now equal and have the same opportunities? No..
Through slavery and Jim Crow laws which lasted nearly 200 years, blacks were forced into situations of poverty and discrimination. We systematically took away their rights and opportunities. We abused them and put them at immense economic disadvantage and can now see the resulting disparities. People who beielve in affirmative action do not think its ok to simply say " we will stop abusing you now, we are equal" and wait 200 years for blacks to catch up. Basically, we are a mile ahead, and its not fair to restart the race with blacks back at the start line. Where groups do not willingly diversify to ensure equal treatment of all hires, affirmative action is justified and necessary.

If we could turn back time, and prevent the entire slave trade between Africa and the US from ever happening, where would today's African Americans most likely be right now? Would they be thriving in the economic prosperity and unlimited opportunities in the western African country of their ancestors' birth?

The slave trade was horrendous and wrong, and I am in no way suggesting that the slave trade did anyone a favour, but I am noting that independent African countries, who have had black majority rule for centuries, and who have not been "kept down by the man", have largely failed to even approach the economic standards and living standards of most African Americans today.
How is this possible? If we believe that majority racism has held African Americans back, then who has held African Africans back ?

[wmw999 2,149]

Less than 30, in my personal experience with (former) family statements. Less than 40, in my personal experience with employers.

If you had applicants who had different qualities for a job you were hiring for, but the same educational level, would you take the guy who worked his way through the lesser college, or the guy whose parents paid for him to go to the better college?

Or would you hire the guy you thought you'd be most comfortable working with, because that's part of the job, too?

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[dreamdancer 0]

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If we believe that majority racism has held African Americans back,

but you don't believe that...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[DanG 1]

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If we believe that majority racism has held African Americans back, then who has held African Africans back ?

Do you believe that the climate, access to natural resources, and freedom from colonial influence in Africa is the same as in the US?

- Dan G

[Butters 0]

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Other PhD's disagree. (3 links).

It's not as widely held any more apparently.

Wendy P.

It would seem so. It was in the mid-80's when I sat in on the lecture.

Like I said before, you might want to look into that ...

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

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I am not an expert on genetics by any means.

That was the point I was trying to make. You slammed another poster's point on the basis that he didn't understand genetics, when you didn't seem to understand it yourself. Just struck my as ironic and mildly hypocritical.

What I was slamming was his assertion that, "You can't select for a trait by applying selective pressure for just a few generations". That is fundamentally wrong. Anybody who was raised on a farm will tell you just how quickly selective breeding affects a bloodline.

Here is another example to help prove your point.

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The domesticated silver fox (marketed as the Siberian fox) is a domesticated form of the silver morph of the red fox. As a result of selective breeding, the new foxes not only became tamer, but more dog-like as well.

The result of over 50 years of experiments in the Soviet Union and Russia, the breeding project was set up in 1959 by the Soviet scientist Dmitri Belyaev. It continues today at The Institute of Cytology and Genetics at Novosibirsk, under the supervision of Lyudmila Trut. Based on work by Belyaev.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[vanair 0]

I remember reading I think 10-20 yrs ago a pilot writing to flying mag. That he was a pilot for Bill Cosby for a short time. Bill supposedly said to them "you guys are only here till we can get black pilots" Some one out there must have more info on this or find something on google. As I recall at the time I was surprised that they printed it. I think it was a letter to the editor in response to an article on hiring quotas. Anyone??? Bueller?

[dreamdancer 0]

you're saying the pilot was racist?

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[metalslug 31]

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If we believe that majority racism has held African Americans back, then who has held African Africans back ?

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Do you believe that the climate, access to natural resources, and freedom from colonial influence in Africa is the same as in the US?

Climate.. natural resources..
You are comparing two very large land masses with variable climate and resources.
In that regard Africa is probably superior. Africa's mineral resources are well documented, the weather and environment has been described as legendary, a haven for natural wildlife and a continent described by some as the most untapped potential in the world.

Colonial influence...
The US has more colonial influence than any African country. Most of the US population is descended from British colonials, not so? So yeah, there's a huge difference there.
Are you suggesting that Africa fell behind because there were insufficient European colonials around to give them a leg-up ?

[dreamdancer 0]

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Most of the US population is descended from British colonials,

and those slaves specially imported for the heavy work...

stay away from moving propellers - they bite
blue skies from thai sky adventures
good solid response-provoking keyboarding

[Meso 38]

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How is this possible? If we believe that majority racism has held African Americans back, then who has held African Africans back ?

Held them back from what though? Economic growth? Building development? Trade?

To suggest that, one would have to assume that these cultures find the same importance in these things that other cultures do. Many native tribes don't care about a country of big shiny buildings, high paying jobs, fancy cars and expensive suits. These are other cultural ideas that are used to base one's worth on.

For many of them they'd have been quite happy to have been left alone in their mud huts and trade in cattle, without wanting to 'advance' in an industrial or economical sense.

I can safely say that I too would rather live in ignorance in a tribal atmosphere not knowing of the big bad world of skyscrapers and office jobs.

As far as AA is concerned, I think it makes sense if a work place is unbalanced racially and the candidate has the same qualifications as a white. I mean why not? What I don't agree with is people getting jobs who are less qualified than others simply because of their colour, this is a problem that needs to be addressed in education and getting black education up to the same level. Putting them in jobs they're unqualified for isn't going to help anything.

And in regards to the IQ issue - If you think blacks are less deserving of anything because they tend to have lower IQs (again this is a problem in education and is rooted far deeper into society than that) then whites should not work in any companies either, Asian statistically have the highest IQs, so by that logic all businesses should be run by Asians and whites should be excluded because Asian workers have higher IQs.

[DanG 1]

No, the colonial influence I refer to does not provide a leg up. Do you think the Americans shook off the British because we wanted the challenge of going it alone? Colonial powers do not colonize a country to benefit it, they do it to benefit themselves. Furthermore, the British colonized America by sending British citizens, with all their technology, education, and support, to populate and exploit the land. That is not what happened in Africa.

As far as climate and natural resources, I think you would be hard pressed to claim that Africa is better suited to argriculture than America. It is true that there are untapped mineral resources in Africa, but every time they have been tapped, they were removed to the benefit of colonial or former colonial powers.

In a nutshell, I'm saying that it is difficult to make the argument, as you apparently are doing, that blacks are inherently inferior to whites based solely on the fact that the United States succeeded economically but the continent of Africa failed.

- Dan G

[rehmwa 2]

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would you take the guy who worked his way through the lesser college, or the guy whose parents paid for him to go to the better college?

Or would you hire the guy you thought you'd be most comfortable working with, because that's part of the job, too?

It's not an "Or" question - I would be more comfy because I would hire the guy that put himself through college - it would imply a more solid work ethic and motivation. I've passed by full ride scholarships kids with higher GPAs (3.9-4.0) for the kids with better communication skills and that put themselves through college (with a 3.2-3.4). I've never been disappointed. And I work in a VERY high technology company that's a bit OVER-prided with PhDs. Funny, though, MY recruits have all risen quickly and are competed for.....

But none of that had anything to do with race, so I don't understand how your question fits. I hire individuals, not cosmetics.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Southern_Man 0]

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, but I am noting that independent African countries, who have had black majority rule for centuries, and who have not been "kept down by the man", have largely failed to even approach the economic standards and living standards of most African Americans today.


The US has more colonial influence than any African country. Most of the US population is descended from British colonials, not so? So yeah, there's a huge difference there.

Your statements imply that you don't have much knowledge of Colonialism in Africa. They are just flat out factually incorrect.

"What if there were no hypothetical questions?"

[mnealtx 0]

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Your statements imply that you don't have much knowledge of Colonialism in Africa. They are just flat out factually incorrect.

metalslug

South Africa

Yup, I'm sure he has NO CLUE about colonialism in Africa...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[metalslug 31]

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, but I am noting that independent African countries, who have had black majority rule for centuries,

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Your statements imply that you don't have much knowledge of Colonialism in Africa. They are just flat out factually incorrect.

I concede that statement, as phrased, is inaccurate.
I would have done better to state that they have had substantially longer periods of black majority rule within the last 300 years than the comparable period of US history.


-----DanG,

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No, the colonial influence I refer to does not provide a leg up. Do you think the Americans shook off the British because we wanted the challenge of going it alone? Colonial powers do not colonize a country to benefit it, they do it to benefit themselves. Furthermore, the British colonized America by sending British citizens, with all their technology, education, and support, to populate and exploit the land. That is not what happened in Africa.

Indeed. In Africa the colonials left more of the indigenous population alive.
Those damn colonials !

With regard to "shaking off the British", don't kid yourself.
I do not know if you have native American family, but if you do not then it's a good bet that you are as much a former colonial as I am.

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In a nutshell, I'm saying that it is difficult to make the argument, as you apparently are doing, that blacks are inherently inferior to whites based solely on the fact that the United States succeeded economically but the continent of Africa failed.

As Meso touched on in his post, "inferior" in this context is a subjective opinion and is a word I have not used in this thread. If western priorities are not African priorities then I'm sure Africa is right on track in the best interests of it's people.

[DanG 1]

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metalslug

South Africa

Yup, I'm sure he has NO CLUE about colonialism in Africa...

Yeah, just like all Americans are so well versed in American history.

- Dan G

[Andy9o8 0]

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Most of the US population is descended from British colonials, not so?

Less so than you may think. Please look at these demographic/immigration data:

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0201398.html

[wmw999 2,149]

I know I'm not.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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In Reply To
, but I am noting that independent African countries, who have had black majority rule for centuries,
In Reply To
Your statements imply that you don't have much knowledge of Colonialism in Africa. They are just flat out factually incorrect.

I concede that statement, as phrased, is inaccurate.
I would have done better to state that they have had substantially longer periods of black majority rule within the last 300 years than the comparable period of US history.

It's an understatement in the extreme to say your statement was "inaccurate". You seem to be shockingly ignorant of history. Here is a random sampling of African countries, their date of independence, and the European country they were previously ruled by. Virtually the only sub-Saharan countries that gained independence before the mid 20th century were Liberia, founded by repatriated American slaves, and South Africa, which has hardly been a shining example of "black majority rule". Where is this "300 years of black majority rule" you speak of?

Ghana March 6, 1957 (Britain)
Cote D'Ivoir August 7 1960 (France)
Liberia July 26, 1847
Republic of Guinea October 2, 1958 (Britain)
Mali April 4, 1960 (France)
Niger August 3, 1960 (France)
Republic of Benin August 1, 1960 (France)
Nigeria October 1, 1960 (UK)
Cameroon October 1, 1961 (France and UK)

For an intelligent discussion of why some societies, including African societies, lagged behind Western European and Asian societies in technological development, I'd suggest you read "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond. Africa, like South America, had several factors going against it, particularly the absence of domesticatible animals (therefore requiring that all labor including transport of goods be done by human labor), the fact that the north-south orientation of the land mean that domesticated crops were slow to spread as they had to be adapted to different climatic zones (which tend to vary more with latitude than with longitude). Asia and Europe, on the other hand, benefited from the fact that similar climates extend all the way from Europe to eastern China and Russia, allowing domesticated crops and animals to be moved long distances and still find suitable growing/living conditions. Also most of our domesticated animals come from the area of modern day Iran/Iraq, or the Russian steppes in the case of the horse, and domesticated animals provided a cheap source of labor and the possibility to move long distances quickly, which amongst other things changed the nature of warfare and so stimulated the development of related technologies such as metal working and explosives (fireworks).

It had nothing to do with Africans being "inferior" or of "lower IQ". It's all about the resources people had available to work with.

Also don't forget that the European colonial powers created countries that had nothing to do with the indigenous populations, but were accidents of who managed to plan a flag where first, and subsequently played on traditional tribal rivalries to subdue the locals and make them easier to govern.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)