308....Is this a good cartridge for long range use?

[steve1 5]

I've often wondered why the military and police like this round so much for long range shooting. I know it is a very accurate cartridge, the recoil is mild, a thirty caliber bullet would buck the wind well and retain energy better than a smaller bullet. A short action may be a plus...

But the 308 just doesn't seem very flat shooting to me. Wouldn't a 300 magnum, 7mm magnum, 30/06, or even a 270 be a better choice for long range shooting?

Having a flatter trajectory would spell the difference between a hit and a miss if you over or under estimate the range at long distant targets.

Maybe someone can educate me on this.....

[turtlespeed 212]

I would love to fire this one.

That said - I think it has more to do with the weapon and brand you are using.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[steve1 5]

I'm wondering too about what kind of accuracy one can expect from an automatic rifle compared to a bolt action. I fine tune most of my bolt guns to where they will group (five shots) between 3/4 and a 1/2 inch at a 100 yds.

So what I am wondering....Will an M-14 or other automatic rifle shoot that well. I'll bet John knows the answer to this....

I'm sure there are advantages to having an automatic for military purposes....

[JohnRich 4]

People love to yak about specialty cartridges for long range shooting, and yes, they'll work fine. They like to put "X's" in the name, like 6BX, and so on. It seems the more X's you put in the name, the better it is. But what will also work find is the old fashioned 60-year old .308. I use 50 minutes of elevation at 1,000 yards. That may seem like a lot, but if you know your distance, it doesn't matter. It gets there, and it's fairly accurate.

What's your application, and for what distance? Shooting deer at 500 yards is do-able with .308. If you want 1-minute groups at 1,000 yards, then you may need something else.

Depends upon the rifle too. If you spend enough money on the rifle, it can make just about any cartridge perform well at distance.

I use an M1A (M-14) at 1,000 yards. Group size on a good day is about 3 feet. The bench rest guys with $5,000 rifles and specialty cartridges can get it down to a foot. How much money do you want to spend?

[steve1 5]

I've never been a big fan of spending a ton of money on a custom rifle.

I like Remington 700's. I also like Leupold scopes. This combination is usually very accurate. With some fine tuning and custom loads, they will usually drive tacks.

I use these rifles for hunting purposes, and practice at long ranges. I seldom take a shot at over 400 yards, because I don't like to wound game. But I would like to hit targets at much further than that. Practice at long range, can make close shots easy....

The problem is, (as I see it) that a shooter seldom knows exact ranges when afield. A rifle with a rainbow trajectory will completely miss the traget if you are off in estimation, even 40 yards. Some people carry range finders, but they are often off too.

It just seems to me that a flatter shooting gun is an advantage in long range shooting.....

I know you do a lot of long range shooting, John. So, I respect your opinion on this.....

[stitch 0]

This isn't the 1800s. They make fairly inexpensive devices these days call laser range-finders.

"No cookies for you"- GFD
"I don't think I like the sound of that" ~ MB65
Don't be a "Racer Hater"

[steve1 5]

Quote

This isn't the 1800s. They make fairly inexpensive devices these days call laser range-finders.

I'm wondering how expensive they are. Are they within the range of the average Joe (price wise), and how accurate are they. I know hunters who have bought range finders who say they are often off....a lot. I imagine this all boils down to how much you want to spend.....

[BIGUN 1,053]

Local buddy of mine is a former Ranger Sniper. We decided to go out and do some range shooting. I show up with my .308 and assume he's bringing something similar... He shows up with a .25-06 and dusts me. So, we're talking about it (he likes to do his own reloading and apparently, the .25-06 has 14 different load capacities)...

Here's some reading on it.

http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/bolt-action-talk/59202-why-isnt-25-06-used-more-long-range-competition.html

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[turtlespeed 212]

I'm sure there are higher priced ones out there - but the average seems to be 200-800 dollars.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[steve1 5]

I was also wondering if anyone out there has used a scope with target turrets. I'd think these could be very deadly for long range shooting, if you know where to set them.

I don't want them to turn by accident though. That could mess up a shot if you don't check the setting every time before shooting. I've never used them. They might make target shooting more fun....

I normally sight my rifles in about 2 1/2 inches high at a hundred. I used to sight them in, about 3 1/2 inches high, but this was shooting over deer at 200 yards. With this system you could hold right on a deer out to 300 yards and hit the lungs easily, with a flat shooting rifle.

For longer shots I have another system that is quick and easy. I use the space between my duplex rectacles to estimate range. It's not always perfectly accurate though....

Target turrets would probably make shots beyond 300 yards easier yet.....I'd like to give these a try...

I think you can send a Leupold scope in and have them put on at the factory.

There are another type that you can screw on yourself, onto a regular scope. I've read a few bad reviews on them though....Others think they are fine.

[rushmc 18]

I like the 6.5 Grendel better

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[davjohns 1]

The Army traditionally uses the .308 because it is NATO standard. It is not the best. I think the current record sniper shot was with a .338 Lapua. There has been lots of work with the .308 to make it a decent round, but there are lots flatter trajectories with similar kill abilities.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

The problem is, (as I see it) that a shooter seldom knows exact ranges when afield.

It takes practice to estimate it with the eyeballs. Your 400-yard rule is probably a good one.

And if you're hunting from a fixed stand, you can measure off the distances in front of you, and note landmarks. Just like golf courses which will have some special kind of bush every 100 yards down the side of the fairway, so that golfers can estimate their distances to help choose what club they want to hit.

You can always study the ballistic charts and note the bullet drop in increments of 100 yards or so. When the change in elevation gets too large to make an accurate hit on the type of game you're hunting, then that's the practical limit on shooting that cartridge/gun.

For example, the elevation come-up for a .308 M1A going from 200 to 300 yards is 3 minutes, or 9". Does that put you outside the kill zone? If so, you might not want to make the shot at 300 yards.

Then there's the whole concept of the military "battle zero". Some WWII military rifles were used with the sights set to about 300 yards, and shot like that regardless of the distance of the enemy. The idea was that if the enemy was further away, you might hit them in the gut instead of the chest, but you'll still hit them. And if they were closer you might get them in the upper chest, instead of the center chest, but you'll still hit them. And that's better in combat than constantly monkeying around with the elevation knob and trying to keep up with where it's set.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

I was also wondering if anyone out there has used a scope with target turrets. I'd think these could be very deadly for long range shooting, if you know where to set them.

I don't want them to turn by accident though. That could mess up a shot if you don't check the setting every time before shooting. I've never used them. They might make target shooting more fun....

I think you can send a Leupold scope in and have them put on at the factory.

Yes, Leupold will convert the knobs if that's what you want. The drawback is they stick out and are more likely to get bumped on a tree branch or something, possibly messing something up. But it's a lot easier than trying to find a nickel to turn the screw slot on the field-type knobs. Definitely easier for target shooting, especially if you're chasing the wind as it comes and goes.

Some guys turn their windage knobs constantly to adjust for conditions. Others say that's a bad technique and they just use a hold-off on their reticle, to adjust for wind changes.

[steve1 5]

Bigun had some good info. on that website. It said that usually a 308 is an accurate round, no matter which gun it is used in. While some rifles like the 25/06 are finicky and will only shoot well if the right reload is used in that gun.

Possibly this is why the military has adopted the 308 as a sniper round....Maybe match ammo will shoot good in most 308's, (that have been accurized)....That may not be the case with other cartridge types.....

[davjohns 1]

Quote

I was also wondering if anyone out there has used a scope with target turrets. I'd think these could be very deadly for long range shooting, if you know where to set them.

I don't want them to turn by accident though. That could mess up a shot if you don't check the setting every time before shooting. I've never used them. They might make target shooting more fun....

I normally sight my rifles in about 2 1/2 inches high at a hundred. I used to sight them in, about 3 1/2 inches high, but this was shooting over deer at 200 yards. With this system you could hold right on a deer out to 300 yards and hit the lungs easily, with a flat shooting rifle.

For longer shots I have another system that is quick and easy. I use the space between my duplex rectacles to estimate range. It's not always perfectly accurate though....

Target turrets would probably make shots beyond 300 yards easier yet.....I'd like to give these a try...

I think you can send a Leupold scope in and have them put on at the factory.

There are another type that you can screw on yourself, onto a regular scope. I've read a few bad reviews on them though....Others think they are fine.

Turrets are a matter of preference. Some allow you to take them off and re-set them to zero after you get sighted in. That would eliminate the problem of them getting bumped. They are essential for some shooting events like silhouette.

If you are interested in long range shooting, I use to participate in a couple of sites. snipershide.com and snipercountry.com. You can find lots of information there.

I know it just wouldnt be right to kill all the stupid people that we meet..

But do you think it would be appropriate to just remove all of the warning labels and let nature take its course.

[rushmc 18]

I like the new Vortex scopes
Just got my Viper 2.5 x 10 PST with the MRAD reticle.

Anyway
Here are some balistic stats on the 6.5 for your info

http://www.alexanderarms.com/grendel_ballistics.pdf

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[steve1 5]

Can anyone recommend a good range finder (for the money). I've heard their are many cheaper ones that won't give accurate ranges beyond 300 yards.

I'd think that a good range finder and target turrets would help tremendously....It sounds like fun to me....

[tkhayes 126]

.308 is a great all-round ammo for everything. Probably not great for that 1000yd shot - like any of us can make those anyway.

If you want longer range, .30-06, 7mm magnum probably better choices.

[winsor 186]

Quote

I've often wondered why the military and police like this round so much for long range shooting. I know it is a very accurate cartridge, the recoil is mild, a thirty caliber bullet would buck the wind well and retain energy better than a smaller bullet. A short action may be a plus...

But the 308 just doesn't seem very flat shooting to me. Wouldn't a 300 magnum, 7mm magnum, 30/06, or even a 270 be a better choice for long range shooting?

Having a flatter trajectory would spell the difference between a hit and a miss if you over or under estimate the range at long distant targets.

Maybe someone can educate me on this.....

The .308 approaches an optimal balance of accuracy and terminal ballistics.

IIRC, the .308 has more wins in benchrest competition than any other cartridge. The configuration of the cartridge makes for very uniform ignition and very efficient burn.

The ballistic coefficients of available bullets can be quite good, and such bullets as the Sierra 168 gr Match King tend to have satisfactory terminal ballistics at useable ranges.

When you get rainbow trajectories, there is a lot going on as you go further and further downrange. As noted, wind drift is an issue, but the bullet will pull to the left or right as a function of spin. Since the orientation of the bullet tends to remain colinear with the bore, incident wind is less and less point-on the more it drops. Like a curve-ball, the bullet will thus drift right for a left-hand twist, and right for a left-hand twist barrel.

Most tactical users have benefit of laser rangefinders and a dope book, so putting the shot dead-on is not much of a problem within operational ranges. Hitting a human-head size target at 1,000 meters is a non-event; USDA Large eggs at 300 yards are a typical target for a Remington 40X in .308. As a general rule of thumb, if I can see it, I can hit it.

There are relatively few places where a 1,000 yard shot or greater is indicated or useful on this continent, and, unless you are considering competing for the Wimbledon Cup, shots over a few hundred yards are largely theoretical.

If you want long-range entertainment, a .50 BMG is the hot tip. The LAR Grizzly Big Boar is good for 1/4 MOA, and the muzzle brake, coupled with its 35 pound weight, makes it much less nasty to shoot than a 7mm or .300 magnum.

At any rate, you have reached the point of diminishing returns by the time you get to an excruciatingly accurate .308. If you need much more, an air strike is in order.


BSBD,

Winsor

[NewGuy2005 51]

Quote

I use an M1A (M-14) at 1,000 yards. Group size on a good day is about 3 feet.

What kind of sights are you using?

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

There are relatively few places where a 1,000 yard shot or greater is indicated or useful on this continent...

All good info, Winsor, but I had to take exception to your excerpt, above: Target shooting for fun is a "useful" activity.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

Quote

I use an M1A (M-14) at 1,000 yards. Group size on a good day is about 3 feet.

What kind of sights are you using?

Oh yeah: iron sights, peep and a post.

[steve1 5]

I was wondering what kind of a set up, people use now days, to win the Windledom Cup. I think SGT. Hathcock won that once using a 300 Winchester Magnum, if I remember right. I'm not sure what kind of scope.

I've never shot at ranges like that, but it does sound like fun practice....It would be a real challenge.

I have shot targets out to 500 yards with a little wind. Groups really start to open up at that range....

Thanks for the info. all. This is interesting stuff....

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

I'm wondering too about what kind of accuracy one can expect from an automatic rifle compared to a bolt action. I fine tune most of my bolt guns to where they will group (five shots) between 3/4 and a 1/2 inch at a 100 yds.

So what I am wondering....Will an M-14 or other automatic rifle shoot that well. I'll bet John knows the answer to this....

I'm sure there are advantages to having an automatic for military purposes....

The plain fact is that any firearm from a respectable manufacturer is acapable of more accuracy that the shooter. In other words, we're not good enough to worry about how good the rifle is. If you get a top notch evil black rifle, you are the limiting factor to accurate bullet placement, not the gun.

I like guns that have more than one use, so I doubt I'll ever have a tricked out distance gun. And while I'm happy to try out a Barrett .50bmg, that's not my thing. I'll take AR variants any day (though I prefer piston operated to the original stoner design; score one for the commies)

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