If I broke into your house . . .

[wmw999 2,174]

For those who want to say that their home town is safer, he's talking about cities with more than 500,000. The source is here

Interestingly enough, NYC is #4.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Bolas 5]

Quote

>Wow...Are you serious ?

Yep. The "evil illegal immigrants are destroying the US" is a right wing myth, promulgated by people who use fear as a means of control.

Here's one example.

John McCain says crossover crime from Mexico has led to "violence--the worst I have ever seen." Be afraid of "the kidnappings and the extortion and the beheadings and the fact that people can't feel safe in their community!" Drug gangs shooting up innocent civilians! "Minutemen" needed to stem the flood of criminals into our country! Oh my!

And yet El Paso, Texas, supposedly Ground Zero for all this violence - is the third safest city in the US.

That's a fact that FOX News et al don't want you to find out about, because then people would be less afraid - and people who are less afraid are harder to control.

So you have 0 issue with illegals using services such as schools, hospitals, police, EMS, fire, etc. but not paying income taxes used to support said services?

I do agree that "kicking 'em out" or "letting them all stay" are both horrid solutions. A complete immigration reform needs to happen that has consistentency.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[wmw999 2,174]

I don't think he said that.

I know that I'd rather not spend more on preventing illegal immigration than it costs; that's kind of silly.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[DanG 1]

Quote

So you have 0 issue with illegals using services such as schools, hospitals, police, EMS, fire, etc. but not paying income taxes used to support said services?

It's certainly a problem, but don't forget that illegals do pay taxes. If they work under the table, they may not pay income taxes (just like citizens who work under the table), but they still pay sales tax, property tax, and all the same fees (use taxes really) that citizens pay. Additionally, the idea that they use government services more than other people do is unsupported.

Quote

I do agree that "kicking 'em out" or "letting them all stay" are both horrid solutions. A complete immigration reform needs to happen that has consistentency.

Agree.

- Dan G

[billvon 2,475]

>So you have 0 issue with illegals using services such as schools,
>hospitals, police, EMS, fire, etc. but not paying income taxes used to
>support said services?

Uh -

1) They do pay taxes. Around $9 billion in social security taxes and another ~$9 billion in income taxes in 2007 from illegal immigrants. (Hard to get that number exactly of course since citizenship is not required in order to pay taxes.)

2) But that's not really the point. The problem here is that they're here illegally. They have to obey the laws like the rest of us do.

>I do agree that "kicking 'em out" or "letting them all stay" are both horrid solutions.

Agreed. We have to get better at letting people in who want to work and keeping people out who want to commit crimes. However, the problem is far less severe than many people want you to believe.

[Bolas 5]

Quote

I don't think he said that.

I know that I'd rather not spend more on preventing illegal immigration than it costs; that's kind of silly.

Wendy P.

Agreed but also kinda hard to find exact numbers. Additionally if there is no enforcement of something, the number doing it may go way up.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[skygypsie 2]

That's a fact that FOX News et al don't want you to find out about, because then people would be less afraid - and people who are less afraid are harder to control

-----------------------------------------------------------

That I totally agree with...

--------------------------------------------------------
So you have 0 issue with illegals using services such as schools, hospitals, police, EMS, fire, etc. but not paying income taxes used to support said services?

I do agree that "kicking 'em out" or "letting them all stay" are both horrid solutions. A complete immigration reform needs to happen that has consistentency.

--------------------------------------------------------

...and this, I'm in total agreement, with !

So, then...how do "we the people" ( i.e. the Government ) see that through ?

I'm not well versed on political science...so what is the solution...seriously ?

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

Right, because tracing information back to its source and seeing where else it might be posted is silly.

People should never do that. They should always just take whatever they find on the internet and repost it without regard for where it comes from or who else may have used it.

AND ITS NOT RIGHT ADDRESSING THE OP TOPIC IF YOU DONT AGREE WITH. BASH THE SOURSE
YA
THATS IT
BASH THE SOURCE

Especially when you got nuttin

Rush, I don't expect you to understand this, but I'll give it a shot anyway. The original post was pretty much only copy and pasted material. It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with material that is copied and pasted. It will never answer a question. It's not "bashing" to want to know the source either.

If anyone just consumes material without questioning where it comes from, they open themselves up to being manipulated by propaganda.

Having the source is fine for data and facts. But seeing how this was more of a way to frame a situation differently to start a discussion, makes the source irrelevant. Period!
The fear for you is you can’t afford to discuss the situation in this perspective. If you did the inconsistency of your position on this topic becomes clearly visible

But
to borrow you first line

I don’t expect you to understand cause if you try to, you may be put in a position to answer a question you really do not want to.

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[quade 3]

Rush, the thing is it's a BS analogy to begin with.

Illegal immigration ISN'T like breaking into your home.

If somebody breaks into your home, you have the right to do all sorts of things that are illegal for a person to do if they find a person crossing the border illegally.

Point after point in the material quoted by Turtle are items that simply don't apply.

This has been gone over ad infinitum in other threads too.

The material Turtle quoted brings nothing new to the debate.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Rush, the thing is it's a BS analogy to begin with.

Illegal immigration ISN'T like breaking into your home.

If somebody breaks into your home, you have the right to do all sorts of things that are illegal for a person to do if they find a person crossing the border illegally.

Point after point in the material quoted by Turtle are items that simply don't apply.

This has been gone over ad infinitum in other threads too.

The material Turtle quoted brings nothing new to the debate.

Sorry

It is a perfect analogy
That is why you have so much trouble with it

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[rushmc 18]

But at least you left your source bs out of this one
I must have made my point about that then

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

The "evil illegal immigrants are destroying the US" is a right wing myth, promulgated by people who use fear as a means of control.

The Federal Reserve are the ones who are destroying the USA with their ability to create money out of thin air and turn around and loan it out at interest. We the common people are nothing but slaves to the elitist Central Banking cartel. There would not be a problem with illegals if there wasn't the need for cheap slave labor. Plus it does not matter if a Donkey or an Elephant lives in the White House, they are the same. The President of the USA is nothing more than a puppet to their Central Banking masters. The only difference between a Donkey and an Elephant, is if someone breaks into a conservative's house they will probably be shot. If someone breaks into a Liberals house, they will be greeted with hugs, pillow fights and teddy bears.

Have you hugged a thug yet today?

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

The original post was pretty much only copy and pasted material. It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with material that is copied and pasted.

You will forever be known as the "DorkZone.com COPY n' PASTE Nazi".

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[billvon 2,475]

>The Federal Reserve are the ones who are destroying the USA . . .

Sorry, they have to take a back seat to the illegal immigrants, Muslim victory mosques, terrorist babies and granny-killin' death boards in the "most scary evil bad" contest (at least until after the election.)

[Tf15 0]

Quote

So you have 0 issue with illegals using services such as schools, hospitals, police, EMS, fire, etc. but not paying income taxes used to support said services?

I do agree that "kicking 'em out" or "letting them all stay" are both horrid solutions. A complete immigration reform needs to happen that has consistentency.

The Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.

Illegal immigrants pay social security payroll taxes but are not eligible for benefits. During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits."

Three times is enemy action

[rushmc 18]

Positons, statements and votes

You decide

Quote

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008)
FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008)
Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008)
Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008)
2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007)
Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007)
Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007)
Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006)
Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004)
Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998)
Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005)

The full context of the abouve

Quote

Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws
Q: Is the D.C. law prohibiting ownership of handguns consistent with an individual’s right to bear arms?
A: As a general principle, I believe that the Constitution confers an individual right to bear arms. But just because you have an individual right does not mean that the state or local government can’t constrain the exercise of that right, in the same way that we have a right to private property but local governments can establish zoning ordinances that determine how you can use it.

Q: But do you still favor the registration & licensing of guns?

A: I think we can provide common-sense approaches to the issue of illegal guns that are ending up on the streets. We can make sure that criminals don’t have guns in their hands. We can make certain that those who are mentally deranged are not getting a hold of handguns. We can trace guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers that may be selling to straw purchasers and dumping them on the streets.

Source: 2008 Philadelphia primary debate, on eve of PA primary Apr 16, 2008

FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban
Obama was being misleading when he denied that his handwriting had been on a document endorsing a state ban on the sale and possession of handguns in Illinois. Obama responded, “No, my writing wasn’t on that particular questionnaire. As I said, I have never favored an all-out ban on handguns.”
Actually, Obama’s writing was on the 1996 document, which was filed when Obama was running for the Illinois state Senate. A Chicago nonprofit, Independent Voters of Illinois, had this question, and Obama took hard line:

35. Do you support state legislation to:
a. ban the manufacture, sale and possession of handguns? Yes.
b. ban assault weapons? Yes.
c. mandatory waiting periods and background checks? Yes.

Obama’s campaign said, “Sen. Obama didn’t fill out these state Senate questionnaires--a staffer did--and there are several answers that didn’t reflect his views then or now. He may have jotted some notes on the front page of the questionnaire, but some answers didn’t reflect his views.”

Source: FactCheck.org analysis of 2008 Philadelphia primary debate Apr 16, 2008

Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok
Q: You said recently, “I have no intention of taking away folks’ guns.” But you support the D.C. handgun ban, and you’ve said that it’s constitutional. How do you reconcile those two positions?
A: Because I think we have two conflicting traditions in this country. I think it’s important for us to recognize that we’ve got a tradition of handgun ownership and gun ownership generally. And a lot of law-abiding citizens use it for hunting, for sportsmanship, and for protecting their families. We also have a violence on the streets that is the result of illegal handgun usage. And so I think there is nothing wrong with a community saying we are going to take those illegal handguns off the streets. And cracking down on the various loopholes that exist in terms of background checks for children, the mentally ill. We can have reasonable, thoughtful gun control measure that I think respect the Second Amendment and people’s traditions.

Source: 2008 Politico pre-Potomac Primary interview Feb 11, 2008

Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing
Q: When you were in the state senate, you talked about licensing and registering gun owners. Would you do that as president?
A: I don’t think that we can get that done. But what we can do is to provide just some common-sense enforcement. The efforts by law enforcement to obtain the information required to trace back guns that have been used in crimes to unscrupulous gun dealers. As president, I intend to make it happen. We essentially have two realities, when it comes to guns, in this country. You’ve got the tradition of lawful gun ownership. It is very important for many Americans to be able to hunt, fish, take their kids out, teach them how to shoot. Then you’ve got the reality of 34 Chicago public school students who get shot down on the streets of Chicago. We can reconcile those two realities by making sure the Second Amendment is respected and that people are able to lawfully own guns, but that we also start cracking down on the kinds of abuses of firearms that we see on the streets.

Source: 2008 Democratic debate in Las Vegas Jan 15, 2008

2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month
Obama sought moderate gun control measures, such as a 2000 bill he cosponsored to limit handgun purchases to one per month (it did not pass). He voted against letting people violate local weapons bans in cases of self-defense, but also voted in2004 to let retired police officers carry concealed handguns.
Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.148 Oct 30, 2007

Concealed carry OK for retired police officers
Obama voted for a bill in the Illinois senate that allowed retired law enforcement officers to carry concealed weapons. If there was any issue on which Obama rarely deviated, it was gun control. He was the most strident candidate when it came to enforcin and expanding gun control laws. So this vote jumped out as inconsistent.
When I queried him about the vote, he said, “I didn’t find that [vote] surprising. I am consistently on record and will continue to be on record as opposing concealed carry. This was a narrow exception in an exceptional circumstance where a retired police officer might find himself vulnerable as a consequence of the work he has previously done--and had been trained extensively in the proper use of firearms.“

It wasn’t until a few weeks later that another theory came forward about the uncharacteristic vote. Obama was battling with his GOP opponent to win the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police.

Source: From Promise to Power, by David Mendell, p.250-251 Aug 14, 2007

Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities
Q: How would you address gun violence that continues to be the #1 cause of death among African-American men?
A: You know, when the massacre happened at Virginia Tech, I think all of us were grief stricken and shocked by the carnage. But in this year alone, in Chicago, we’ve had 34 Chicago public school students gunned down and killed. And for the most part, there has been silence. We know what to do. We’ve got to enforce the gun laws that are on the books. We’ve got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren’t loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they’re not made in our communities. There aren’t any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit. But what we also have to do is to make sure that we change our politics so that we care just as much about those 30-some children in Chicago who’ve been shot as we do the children in Virginia Tech. That’s a mindset that we have to have in the White House and we don’t have it right now.

Source: 2007 NAACP Presidential Primary Forum Jul 12, 2007

Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality
I believe in keeping guns out of our inner cities, and that our leaders must say so in the face of the gun manfuacturer’s lobby. But I also believe that when a gangbanger shoots indiscriminately into a crowd because he feels someone disrespected him, we have a problem of morality. Not only do ew need to punish thatman for his crime, but we need to acknowledge that there’s a hole in his heart, one that government programs alone may not be able to repair.
Source: The Audacity of Hope, by Barack Obama, p.215 Oct 1, 2006

Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban
KEYES: [to Obama]: I am a strong believer in the second amendment. The gun control mentality is ruthlessly absurd. It suggests that we should pass a law that prevents law abiding citizens from carrying weapons. You end up with a situation where the crook have all the guns and the law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves. I guess that’s good enough for Senator Obama who voted against the bill that would have allowed homeowners to defend themselves if their homes were broken into.
OBAMA: Let’s be honest. Mr. Keyes does not believe in common gun control measures like the assault weapons bill. Mr. Keyes does not believe in any limits from what I can tell with respect to the possession of guns, including assault weapons that have only one purpose, to kill people. I think it is a scandal that this president did not authorize a renewal of the assault weapons ban.

Source: Illinois Senate Debate #3: Barack Obama vs. Alan Keyes Oct 21, 2004

Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions
Principles that Obama supports on gun issues:
Ban the sale or transfer of all forms of semi-automatic weapons.
Increase state restrictions on the purchase and possession of firearms.
Require manufacturers to provide child-safety locks with firearms.
Source: 1998 IL State Legislative National Political Awareness Test Jul 2, 1998

Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers.
A bill to prohibit civil liability actions from being brought or continued against manufacturers, distributors, dealers, or importers of firearms or ammunition for damages, injunctive or other relief resulting from the misuse of their products by others. Voting YES would:
Exempt lawsuits brought against individuals who knowingly transfer a firearm that will be used to commit a violent or drug-trafficking crime
Exempt lawsuits against actions that result in death, physical injury or property damage due solely to a product defect
Call for the dismissal of all qualified civil liability actions pending on the date of enactment by the court in which the action was brought
Prohibit the manufacture, import, sale or delivery of armor piercing ammunition, and sets a minimum prison term of 15 years for violations
Require all licensed importers, manufacturers and dealers who engage in the transfer of handguns to provide secure gun storage or safety devices

The source

http://www.ontheissues.org/gun_control.htm

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

So you have 0 issue with illegals using services such as schools, hospitals, police, EMS, fire, etc. but not paying income taxes used to support said services?

I do agree that "kicking 'em out" or "letting them all stay" are both horrid solutions. A complete immigration reform needs to happen that has consistentency.

The Congressional Budget Office indicates that between 50 percent and 75 percent of unauthorized immigrants pay federal, state, and local taxes.

Illegal immigrants pay social security payroll taxes but are not eligible for benefits. During 2006, Standard & Poor's analysts wrote: "Each year, for example, the U.S. Social Security Administration maintains roughly $6 billion to $7 billion of Social Security contributions in an "earnings suspense file" -- an account for W-2 tax forms that cannot be matched to the correct Social Security number. The vast majority of these numbers are attributable to undocumented workers who will never claim their benefits."

Which is why the fed is dragging their feet on addressing it as it's more of a local issue/service glut.

Illegals working "under the table" don't pay income tax.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[quade 3]

Quote

Quote

The original post was pretty much only copy and pasted material. It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with material that is copied and pasted.

You will forever be known as the "DorkZone.com COPY n' PASTE Nazi".

Fine. And I will continue to ridicule those that simply parrot material rather than have original thoughts.

It's a win-win.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

>The Federal Reserve are the ones who are destroying the USA . . .

Sorry, they have to take a back seat to the illegal immigrants, Muslim victory mosques, terrorist babies and granny-killin' death boards in the "most scary evil bad" contest (at least until after the election.)

That's because the Donkeys and the Elephants both want everyone to believe illegals, muslims and death boards are the problem through their respective media. Anything to distract from the inflationary debt spiral the Federal Reserve (and other Central Banks around the planet) has us all in. How much is too much debt? Here have some more money, we will just devalue what you already have by giving you more. It does not matter if it is individual consumer debt or government debt. Sooner or later the bubble will pop. We came damn close last year, except politicians caved in and took on more debt and we the common folk (mainly our descendants) will suffer because of it.

I wish I had an easy answer (short of a revolution which would most likely be a bloody one) that would dislodge the hold the Central Bankers have on the world. But people definitely need to seek information from more than one media source these days. The media on the Left and the Right are both out distorting the truth of the real reality in which we live.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[rushmc 18]

Quote

Quote

Quote

The original post was pretty much only copy and pasted material. It's IMPOSSIBLE to have a discussion with material that is copied and pasted.

You will forever be known as the "DorkZone.com COPY n' PASTE Nazi".

Fine. And I will continue to ridicule those that simply parrot material rather than have original thoughts.

It's a win-win.

So your thoughts are original?

Ya
right

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

Duuuuuuuude are you channeling rhys conspiracy sources???

[billvon 2,475]

>Illegals working "under the table" don't pay income tax.

Right. _Anyone_ who works under the table doesn't pay income tax.

[CanuckInUSA 0]

Quote

Duuuuuuuude are you channeling rhys conspiracy sources???

Carry on thinking Obama is your savior. You are blind to the realities that he is nothing more than a puppet. His "YES WE CAN" was nothing more than pure bullshit. There is little difference between Obama and GWB. Shit we already know they are distant cousins. But maybe you love Obama so much because you too have admitted you are part of the Obama/GWB clan. It must make your family reunions interesting as you kiss Obama's ass all the while spew garbage towards his cousin, your cousin GWB.

The difference between us is that I know both Obama and GWB suck ass.

Try not to worry about the things you have no control over

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

The "evil illegal immigrants are destroying the US" is a myth, promulgated by people who use fear as a means of control

You know you won't hear me decrying the evil brown people and how they are supposed to be killing this country. What does concern me is what's happening to hospitals and social services along the border. Mexico got out of the social services business years ago, leaving folks to look elsewhere.

Quote

And yet El Paso, Texas, supposedly Ground Zero for all this violence - is the third safest city in the US.

You realize people who are trying to get into the country illegally don't generally go to the local police when their coyotes screw with them, right?

Do you really think El Paso, which shares part of its border with Ciudad Juarez, is as safe as you make it? I mean, hey, I love this country and think it's great, but you don't rub shoulders with "Murder City" without some spilling over. El Paso is also the most patrolled border/port of entry in the country.

Then you've got Phoenix, AZ becoming the kidnapping capital of the US, closing national lands, violence against tribal people on the reservation, ranchers being attacked on their own land, massacres happening on a weekly basis, torture and killing of journalists, musicians, and law enforcement, and hey, who wouldn't want to raise kids there?

On a more serious note, anyone with the inclination can find stories of cross-border skirmishes, banditos, rustlers, famous/infamous lawmen of dubious legality, and all kinds of colorful characters. You can't argue there hasn't always been violence and crime along the border. The difference lies in large part with the drug trends and GATT and NAFTA. The Mexican economy tanked, the US started the "Drug War," and Miami and the Carribean ratcheted up their patrol. All that (plus classic Mexican corruption) leads to people with no hope and nothing to lose.

Quote

a new report by the Mexican government has found the death toll from the so-called drug war is much higher than previously thought. Nearly 23,000 people have been killed in drug-related violence in Mexico since a US-backed military crackdown on cartels began more than three years ago. The figures in the internal government document were reported by the Associated Press. President Calderón deployed tens of thousands of troops and Mexican federal police along the US border and in a number of interior cities soon after taking office in December 2006. The report said 2009 was the deadliest year in the so-called drug war with over 9,600 people killed. The death toll is on track to be even higher in 2010, with more than [3,300] people killed in the first three months of this year alone.

And is things really are hunky-dory on our side while the south sides goes to hell, why was Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu telling reporters in June 2010 that "violence against law enforcement officers and U.S. citizens has increased in the past four months, further underscoring the need to keep the 80 miles of border land off-limits to Americans?" Why did President Calderon say ""I am well aware that over the past year, violence has worsened. But we must battle on.""

Quote

then people would be less afraid - and people who are less afraid are harder to control.

Take out your right wing comments and apply this to government in general, and I would agree. Right and left just tell people to be afraid of different things. Both want more power.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Bolas 5]

Quote

Quote

>The Federal Reserve are the ones who are destroying the USA . . .

Sorry, they have to take a back seat to the illegal immigrants, Muslim victory mosques, terrorist babies and granny-killin' death boards in the "most scary evil bad" contest (at least until after the election.)

That's because the Donkeys and the Elephants both want everyone to believe illegals, muslims and death boards are the problem through their respective media. Anything to distract from the inflationary debt spiral the Federal Reserve (and other Central Banks around the planet) has us all in. How much is too much debt? Here have some more money, we will just devalue what you already have by giving you more. It does not matter if it is individual consumer debt or government debt. Sooner or later the bubble will pop. We came damn close last year, except politicians caved in and took on more debt and we the common folk (mainly our descendants) will suffer because of it.

I wish I had an easy answer (short of a revolution which would most likely be a bloody one) that would dislodge the hold the Central Bankers have on the world. But people definitely need to seek information from more than one media source these days. The media on the Left and the Right are both out distorting the truth of the real reality in which we live.

The central banks just provide the credit, we don't have to take it. We as a society could learn to live within our means, using credit carefully, and start paying it down. Some individuals already do that.

Irresponsible spending habits are not the fault of those providing credit.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.