I'm becoming an atheist

[Shotgun 1]

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There are a variety of reasons why people do bad things. Religion is a significant one.

Religion is also a significant reason why people do good things. I don't know if the world would be better off without it. But the world would certainly be better off with more tolerance and interfaith dialogue and growth within the various relgions (replacing old, unhelpful ideas with better ones).

[Shotgun 1]

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I'd agree with either statement below:
* Ending religion to end the largest source of violence.

I'm not so sure it's the largest source of violence. Politics and competition for resources are pretty big sources. And all the violent crime in our country - I doubt that religion has anything to do with most of it.

[dontsplatmatt 0]

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Can you identify even one person here who thinks the Bible is infallibly, literally true?

I don't know. Your skydiving circle of friends is much larger than mine, so you'd be better off asking them yourself. If you're asking if I know anyone that believes that then yes. After growing up in southern Baptist churches I've met many people like that.

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You've contradicted yourself here. On the one hand you say "yes, a person who teaches them nothing and just asks them questions is evil" (i.e. the Socratic method is evil.) Then you say "forcing them to just accept answers is evil" which is the opposite.

The Socratic method does not consist of one person who knows more than everyone else sitting in a corner hiding evidence from them and forcing them to rely on faith and acceptance. And I didn't say either of those actions are evil. I said that doing them to hide the answers and then punishing your students for getting it wrong is evil.

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Wouldn't that make someone in your position similarly bad? There are undoubtedly many people who are suffering excruciatingly painful and (to them) incurable diseases in third world countries, diseases which could likely be cured or at least managed with modern medicine. Why do you force them to live with those diseases instead of helping them?

The difference is that I am not omnipotent, I am not all good and I did not inflict them with the disease.

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"and all these terrible things mentioned above are directly caused by religion, the world would be better off without it."

This in no way means that all the world's problems stem from religion nor does it mean that getting rid of religion will solve all the world's problems.

[Bolas 5]

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>I'd agree with either statement below:
>* Ending religion to end religious violence.

Well, that's as accurate as "ending gun ownership to end gun violence." Nice idea in theory; not so practical or smart in practice.

If you take religion away from law abiding citizens then only the criminals would have it.

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[jakee 1,255]

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Can you identify even one person here who thinks the Bible is infallibly, literally true?

Bill Cole

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[maadmax 0]

--If he was all-knowing, he would know that we would be unable to understand his intentional mistakes. If it's his intent for us to all join him in heaven, and he is omnipotent, then he should utilize this omnipotence to help us out. Being elusive and then condemning people to hell when they didn't believe in him is an asshole move, and if he did exist and this were the case, I would walk into hell with my head held high knowing that I didn't worship such a monster.

It takes a truly amazing person with great insights to be able to judge God from where we sit. But I guess a short cut would be to throw in a little arrogance and presto you now are the judge of God. Maybe if you looked at God directly and not some of the misinformed people who claim to speak for god, you would see a little clearer.

[skydiverkeith 1]

How many religious people believe that god sent Hitler to kill the jews because they killed his son?

And that was before he created aids to take out the homos. Much more civilized than the fire and brimstone he used in biblical times...

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[Bolas 5]

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How many religious people believe that god sent Hitler to kill the jews because they killed his son?

And that was before he created aids to take out the homos. Much more civilized than the fire and brimstone he used in biblical times...

Already tried to end this thread with that.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

It's Unstoppable!!!

Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting
If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh.

[turtlespeed 212]

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I'd agree with either statement below:
* Ending religion to end the largest source of violence.
* Ending religion to end religious violence.

That would be akin to ending skydiving to put an end to anyone being a whuffo.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[mnealtx 0]

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I was one of those sub-24 week babies, and I can assure you that my pain receptors were working just fine.

Really? How? How can you possibly assure us your pain receptors were working just fine prior to week 24? I'm really curious.

How? Because I was one of the original "kilogram kids". I was born prior to 24 weeks, and was in an incubator with IV's for several weeks before going home.

And you claim to remember pain from that age?

Nope, sure don't - but figured that was going to be the bullshit 'argument'.

By all means, why don't you tell us how the docs figured out that those 25 week and above babies were in pain.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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By all means, why don't you tell us how the docs figured out that those 25 week and above babies were in pain.

I'll let their words speak for themselves.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[philh 0]

Your not sure how a passage that says the those that dont follow jesus are like sticks that should be burnt might inspire somone to burn their religious opponenets. Really?
You are aware that many Christians have burnt their opponents.
Just as many Muslims states currently sotne to death adulterers. If religion had nothing to do with these crimes why is it that stoning to death happens in more religious countriues. I gues they just happen to be bad and the religions got nothing to do with it right?

[mnealtx 0]

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By all means, why don't you tell us how the docs figured out that those 25 week and above babies were in pain.

I'll let their words speak for themselves.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

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Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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By all means, why don't you tell us how the docs figured out that those 25 week and above babies were in pain.

I'll let their words speak for themselves.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

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Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980

So, we have conflicting reports. One allegedly from a few people in 1980 and one which is a multidisciplinary review published in the Journal of American Medicine in 2005.

Why do you give more credibility to the older report you can't seem to actually find a link to?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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By all means, why don't you tell us how the docs figured out that those 25 week and above babies were in pain.

I'll let their words speak for themselves.
http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/short/294/8/947

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Pain can be detected when nociceptors (pain receptors) discharge electrical impulses to the spinal cord and brain. These fire impulses outward, telling the muscles and body to react. These can be measured. Mountcastle, Medical Physiology, St. Louis: C.V. Mosby, pp. 391-427 "Lip tactile response may be evoked by the end of the 7th week. At 11 weeks, the face and all parts of the upper and lower extremities are sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 to 14 weeks, the entire body surface, except for the back and the top of the head, are sensitive to pain." S. Reinis & J. Goldman, The Development of the Brain C. Thomas Pub., 1980

So, we have conflicting reports. One from a few people in 1980 and one which is a Multidisciplinary Review published in the Journal of American Medicine.

Why do you give more credibility to the older report you can't seem to actually find a link to?

Because I have eyewitness reports from my parents and siblings of my reactions to IV sticks and blood draws.

Why do you give more credibility to the newer report you can only find a summary of?

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[quade 3]

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Why do you give more credibility to the newer report you can only find a summary of?

You're mistaken if you think the only thing on the page I linked to is the summary.

Again, where is your actual documentation? Not anecdotal claims that can't be checked. Actual peer reviewed material.

You had demanded as much from others. It's only fair you supply them for your side of the argument.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[mnealtx 0]

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Why do you give more credibility to the newer report you can only find a summary of?

You're mistaken if you think the only thing on the page I linked to is the summary.

Again, where is your actual documentation? Not anecdotal claims that can't be checked. Actual peer reviewed studies.

Observation trumps theory - that's why scientists do experiments, Paul.

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You had demanded as much from others. It's only fair you supply them for your side of the argument.

The references are noted in the quote - look them up if you like.

From your own reference:
No human studies have directly examined the development of thalamocortical circuits associated with pain perception. The developmental age at which thalamic pain fibers reach the cortex has been inferred from studies of other thalamocortical circuits, which may or may not develop at the same time as thalamic fibers mediating cortical perception of pain.

So, they *think* fetuses can't feel pain, but they're not sure. They also make an assertion that it's not pain unless it can be perceived as such:
Because pain is a psychological construct with emotional content, the experience of pain is modulated by changing emotional input and may need to be learned through life experience.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[philh 0]

Bilvon , are you suggesting that mainstream Chrsitianity does not think The bible is perfect, or does not think God is perfect? or both?

[Meso 38]

Regarding the perception of God being perfect.

I've been to various churches and they all proposed that God was perfect, and that he was the only perfect being. And urge followers to try 'meet God's perfection, although it's impossible'.

I can certainly say that in my experience, every Christian I've spoken to (which is plenty) had the idea that God is perfect and can do no wrong, and where it would seem he has done wrong, is merely one of his plans we don't understand.

In fact I'm fairly certain most Christians I know would be most offended if another Christian proposed that God was not perfect.

[philh 0]

Well thats my experience. I have to say Ive never heard of any mono theist claim god is anything but perfect. I thought this was a standard assumption of the Abrahamic faiths. anyone disagree?

[skydiverkeith 1]

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Your not sure how a passage that says the those that dont follow jesus are like sticks that should be burnt might inspire somone to burn their religious opponenets. Really?
You are aware that many Christians have burnt their opponents.
Just as many Muslims states currently sotne to death adulterers. If religion had nothing to do with these crimes why is it that stoning to death happens in more religious countriues. I gues they just happen to be bad and the religions got nothing to do with it right?

Right! Glad to see you finally catching on...

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[kallend 1,623]

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Well thats my experience. I have to say Ive never heard of any mono theist claim god is anything but perfect. I thought this was a standard assumption of the Abrahamic faiths. anyone disagree?

Funny how this supposedly perfect being designed things like nipples on men, spines not optimized for an upright gait, 6th pharyngeal nerve path open to injury, joints that wear out, single point of failure in critical organs, etc.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ShayneH 0]

I have a question for you religious folk. Let's suppose that the universe is truly governed by an omnipotent, altruistic deity.

Why do you believe that your god is the god? What's to say that the millions of people that follow [insert religion here] are following a false religion and yours is the true one? Surely the universe can't be governed by Jesus, Muhammad, Krisna, Zues, etc... (Unless, of course, there's a secret cosmic league of super-friends!) And what's to say that heaven & hell away departed souls? Why not reincarnation? Or attainment of Jina?

I guess my question is why are you right about your god and everyone else is wrong about theirs? Especially since there are religions dating way further back than Christianity.

[skydiverkeith 1]

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I have a question for you religious folk. Let's suppose that the universe is truly governed by an omnipotent, altruistic deity.

Why do you believe that your god is the god? What's to say that the millions of people that follow [insert religion here] are following a false religion and yours is the true one? Surely the universe can't be governed by Jesus, Muhammad, Krisna, Zues, etc... (Unless, of course, there's a secret cosmic league of super-friends!) And what's to say that heaven & hell away departed souls? Why not reincarnation? Or attainment of Jina?

I guess my question is why are you right about your god and everyone else is wrong about theirs? Especially since there are religions dating way further back than Christianity.

Because my god said so, duhhh!!

Blue skies,
Keith Medlock

[ShayneH 0]

Lol... or better yet, who's to argue and say Tom Cruise is wrong and that we were all brought here by an intergalactic alien named Xenu?

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"What are BTs and Clusters, you ask? Well, 75 million years ago, an evil galactic ruler named Xenu was faced with an overpopulation problem. So, with the help of Psychiatrists (yes, according to $cientology, Psychiatrists have always existed and have the intention of destroying mankind) he drugged and paralyzed billions of his people and piled their bodies at the bases of volcanos, right here on Earth (then it was called Teegeeack). Then, he exploded the volcanos with atom bombs (I guess they had those back then too).

After the bodies were destroyed by the explosions, Xenu captured their souls in electronic beams. He then 'implanted' them with 'false data' about reality -- oh, things like Christ, Budda, other dieties, etc. After the implanting, the souls thought they were one and the same being, and began to 'cluster' together into groups of souls.

Now, everytime someone is born on earth, cluster of these souls or 'body thetans' (BTs) cling to the person. $cientology can help! Only certified $cientology 'tech' can rid one of these harmful BTs and clusters."