I'm becoming an atheist

[quade 3]

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But since you state that the evidence is fairly simple, feel free to explain the creation of the earth in fairly simple terms to me.

I'm sorry. Did you want to creation of the earth or the universe? The creation of the earth is trivial.

A star blew up.

Some of the material left over from that explosion was gravitationally attracted. Since the distribution of the material wasn't uniformly smooth it began to rotate. Some material fell closer to the center of the mass. When enough mass collected together gravity caused the heavier parts to sink further toward the center while the lighter parts formed the surface. That gave the proto-planet an iron core, a rock surface and a thin atmosphere. Over time water vapor condensed, fell as liquid water and formed the oceans.

It's pretty simple and you can actually see the process take place in other parts of our own solar system. If you look at Saturn you'll see it currently has an accretion disc around it. If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[beowulf 1]

LOL, I read a lot and when I got first dial up account I couldn't think of a user name so I just looked around and Beowulf has always been one of my favorite books.

Do some research on evolution and the big bang. The information out there is not that hard to understand. How they measure the movement of stars, planets and everything else isn't that complicated. While not everything is known or understood, based on the information available it makes much more sense then some mysterious being that no evidence of exists called god or allah or whatever, did it.

[billvon 2,400]

>feel free to explain the creation of the earth in fairly simple terms to me.

OK.

We start with galactic gas and dust clouds. These clouds come mostly from interstellar hydrogen and helium, with a little matter mixed in from exploding supernovas.

Over billions of years, small pockets of higher density dust start to attract other dust. Clumps form. The larger clumps begin accumulating stuff faster. As more and more stuff collapses towards the growing core, slight differences in angular momentum tends to create a disk of matter spiraling in towards the center.

As matter accumulates and pressure increases in the center, the temperature rises. Finally it exceeds ignition temperature and nuclear fusion starts; this is the beginning of the sun.

In the outer parts of the disk, clumps start to accumulate more and more crud as they spiral in. Once the gravity of these clumps starts attracting all the matter near them, there's no more drag, and their orbits stop decaying. They are now early planets.

The Earth was originally one of these clumps, mostly hydrogen, helium, oxygen and carbon. The clump was not large enough to initiate fusion or even get very hot - but it was large enough to compress the material at the center. The heavier elements in the clump (mostly iron, silicon, carbon, calcium, and magnesium) strayed towards the center; the lighter elements (hydrogen and helium) stayed towards the outside.

Once the sun ignited, most of the hydrogen and helium were blown off by the shockwave (later the solar wind.) The heavier elements in the center remained, and the Earth of the size we know it now was born.

[maadmax 0]

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>figures...anything but the point, eh.

And what exactly is the point, then? As far as I can tell, it's 278 posts worth of:

Atheists: Christians are dumb
Christians: You just don't get it do you

Didn't you get that backwards?



...

[billvon 2,400]

>Didn't you get that backwards?

Doesn't really matter. It ends up as the same argument either way.

[turtlespeed 212]

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If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

wouldn't that be, "you'd be able to see it form a moon AGAIN?"

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[kallend 1,623]

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If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

wouldn't that be, "you'd be able to see it form a moon AGAIN?"

One theory - but not proven.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[turtlespeed 212]

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If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

wouldn't that be, "you'd be able to see it form a moon AGAIN?"

One theory - but not proven.

So basically, almost ALL of the explanations and "truths" are actually just theorys.

If you don't agree with the words "Almosty All" perhaps you would care to put a percentage to it.

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[champu 1]

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If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

wouldn't that be, "you'd be able to see it form a moon AGAIN?"

One theory - but not proven.

So basically, almost ALL of the explanations and "truths" are actually just theorys.

If you don't agree with the words "Almosty All" perhaps you would care to put a percentage to it.

42%

[turtlespeed 212]

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If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

wouldn't that be, "you'd be able to see it form a moon AGAIN?"

One theory - but not proven.

So basically, almost ALL of the explanations and "truths" are actually just theorys.

If you don't agree with the words "Almosty All" perhaps you would care to put a percentage to it.

42%

I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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We start with galactic gas and dust clouds. These clouds come mostly from interstellar hydrogen and helium, with a little matter mixed in from exploding supernovas.

Where did the interstellar hydrogen and helium and little matter come from?

Now to be clear, we believe it to have happened this way based on subsequent observations. We don't actually know it happened that way.

All I am trying to get across is that science is as much a belief structure as religion. It is based on making assumptions and believing in them until something else comes along.

The OP had made several assumptions about what his specific religion would bring him. When those assumptions did not materialize, he took on a different belief. Science really is no different.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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So basically, almost ALL of the explanations and "truths" are actually just theorys.

Which was exactly my point.....

[Meso 38]

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All I am trying to get across is that science is as much a belief structure as religion. It is based on making assumptions and believing in them until something else comes along.

Excuse me... What?

Science is definitely not based on 'assumptions', if you're talking about a specific scientific theory maybe. But science itself is not about 'making assumptions and believing in them until something else comes along'.

You start with evidence, and with that evidence you develop a theory. And then look for confirmation of the theory through means of other evidence, in the attempts to prove the theory correct and make it into a fact.

The way this differs from religion is that religion has never been able to prove religious theories, while science is constantly confirming theories and turning it into fact or law in case of physics. The physics laws were once theories too.

As for theories to the origin of the earth, yes they all remain theories at this point. But shouldn't that mean one should at least look at the theory with the most factual support. If the bible is your written theory on the creation of earth it's a terrible one of which none of it's significant claims hold any factual validity.

The scientific theories of earth's creation at least hold some weight in regards to evidence. I could propose my own theory right here and now, a completely mad one involving all kinds of silly objects that fornicated with holy goats... But people who believed my theory would be stupid, because it holds very little evidence supporting it's base claims.

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Where did the interstellar hydrogen and helium and little matter come from?

If you believe that God could exist from nothing, how can you refuse to believe that matter can exist from nothing. If you believe everything needs to be created, God would too and if you believe that God is somewhat special and doesn't require creation, then all matter should be allowed to hold this ability.

[ShayneH 0]

Hi, I read the first few posts, then skipped to the last page. So if I reiterate something already said, I'm sorry. With that said...

While I am an atheist, I believe that religion stands for a purpose. People are afraid of the unknown. It's a fact. And back in the time where science didn't exist, folks were struggling to find an explanation as to why lightning illuminated the sky, why the sun came and went, why rivers flooded, etc... With the invention of an omnipotent, intangible being, they could explain all these occurrences and have some hope of controlling the occurrences in their favor by worshiping and contributing to the God(s).

However, today, with empirical scientific evidence filling the void of the unknown, religion still stands for a few good reasons. It brings communities together, especially in hard times. It provides a metaphorical crutch for the sick and hopeless to lean on. It provides a glorious outlook of sunshine and reunion with lost loved ones in the afterlife.

With the good, comes the bad though. Over the years, intelligent folks found that people were easily manipulated with fear of eternal damnation. "If you don't tithe 50% of your income and obey all these rules, you're going to hell, blah blah blah." And when an individual finds himself facing eternal damnation, he's likely to do whatever the 'priest' says.

Then there's all the bloodshed that religion has caused. Holy wars over who's god is better, what god really exists, car bombings and plane hijackings to send a message to the infidels, etc etc. Pointless bloodshed. Without religion, wars and violence wouldn't run so rampant.

My biggest problem with religion, though, is how the Church has hampered scientific advancement for centuries. Take for example Copernicus, the great astronomer, who was sentenced to house arrest for life for publishing a pamphlet that stated the universe heliocentric, not geocentric as previously believed by the church. Or more recently, how James Dobson and Pat Robertson fabricated tons of religious bullshit about the evils associated with stem cell research, a viable new biomedical area that presents countless possibilities for treating and curing diseases. I'm a science nerd at heart, and I absolutely HATE the 'believe what we say or go to hell' philosophy of religion. It astonishes me how naive people can be. (Hate to break it to you creationists, but the world wasn't created 3,000 years ago, and we are the product of evolution)

Anywho, with all that said, religion, like anything, has it's ups and downs. Now, I'll leave you with a quote that I live by:

“Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones.” ~ Marcus Aurelius

[ShayneH 0]

...oh yea, and http://shaunphilly.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/christianity.jpg

[kallend 1,623]

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If you looked long enough (well past your lifetime unfortunately), you'd be able to see it form a moon.

wouldn't that be, "you'd be able to see it form a moon AGAIN?"

One theory - but not proven.

So basically, almost ALL of the explanations and "truths" are actually just theorys.

If you don't agree with the words "Almosty All" perhaps you would care to put a percentage to it.

Answers like that only illustrate that you have no clue about the way science operates.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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You start with evidence, and with that evidence you develop a theory.

To use your line:

Excuse me... What?

You start with the observation, then develope a theory, thenevidence shapes the direction of the theory.

[billvon 2,400]

>Where did the interstellar hydrogen and helium and little matter come from?

The hydrogen condensed out of a plasma of protons and neutrons a few minutes after the Big Bang. The helium came from other stars; they burn hydrogen to helium. The other matter came from larger stars that can create elements all the way to iron - and can create trace amounts of other elements if they go supernova.

>Now to be clear, we believe it to have happened this way based on
>subsequent observations. We don't actually know it happened that way.

Correct - just as you don't know that you actually have a great-great-great grandfather. You just think that based on how you understand human reproduction to work (and perhaps some secondhand evidence like stories, pictures or genealogical records.)

>All I am trying to get across is that science is as much a belief structure
>as religion.

Uh - no. If you can observe it from existing physical evidence, propose a hypothesis to explain it, test it, then rework that hypothesis until experimentation proves it correct - it's science. If there is no evidence other than what people believe, it's religion.

Someday someone might propose an experiment where the action of God is detectable - perhaps a priest who can pray and cause the dead to come back to life. If that happens, and it can be repeated and measured, then religion will begin to come into the realm of science. That has never happened.

[winsor 186]

"Religion is a cow. It gives milk, but it also kicks." — Buddha.
"Religion is an organization bent on the dissemination of faith, over and above the meaning or truth of the object of that faith."
"Beware of those who try to sell you simple answers to complex questions." — Scott Adams.
"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself." — Sir Richard Burton.
"We preach peace, forgiveness, tolerance and love. We practice vengeance, persecution, hatred and domination. My personal beliefs are supported and validated by my convictions. Oh, and never forget .... my religion is truth, yours is a lie." — Religion, paraphrased (unknown).
"If you're following the news, you know that the major religions differ in their interpretation of the holy books. For example, one way to interpret God's will is that you should love your neighbor. An alternate reading of the holy books might lead you to rig a donkey cart with small mortar rockets and aim it at a hotel full of infidels. In summary, po-tay-to, poh-tah-to. Religions are very flexible." — From Scott Adams' Holiday Thoughts, 2003.
"If religious people could be reasoned with there would be no religious people." — Dr House.
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning." — Bill Waterson, Calvin & Hobbes.
"A cult is a religion with no political power." — Tom Wolfe.
"A religion is a cult that succeeded."
"The difference between a cult and a religion is that the latter is old. Like, stepping into a pile of dogshit makes you curse, but stepping into a pile of dinosaur shit makes you famous. Despite both being crap." — Opportunist.
"Cult: a small unpopular religion.
Religion: a large popular cult."
"A mythology is someone else's religion, different enough from your own for its absurdity to be obvious."
"As a true believer, I would gladly give your life for my religion."
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." — Napoleon.
"Religion is like chemotherapy, it may solve one problem, but it can cause a million more." — John Bledsoe.
"The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others." — Bertrand Russell (1872—1970), British philosopher.
"Ignorance is the Mother of Devotion." — Robert Burton.
"The command, 'Be fruitful and multiply', was promulgated, according to our authorities, when the population of the world consisted of two persons." — Dean William R. Inge.
"Religious belief is a mental illness. A contagious one."
"Most of the religions have exhibited a perverse talent for taking the wrong side on the most important concepts in the material universe, from the structure of the solar system to the origin of man."
"I find the whole business of religion profoundly interesting. But it does mystify me that otherwise intelligent people take it seriously." — Douglas Adams.
"There are ten church members by inheritance for every one by conviction."
"Fundamentalism means never having to say 'I'm wrong'."
"The mind of the fundamentalist is like the pupil of the eye: the more light you pour on it, the more it will contract."
"Wouldn't you say suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem ? I'm a Buddhist, I'd say suicide is a temporary solution to a permanent problem."
"Rumour has it that only 3 commandments were offered initially. When it was determined that it was for free, well..."
"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." — Winston Churchill.
"A fanatic is a man who does what he thinks the Lord would do if He knew the facts of the case." — Finley Peter Dunne (1867—1936).
"A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something..."
"O Lord, help me to be pure, but not yet." — St. Augustine (354-430 A.D.).
"I saw the best book title today: 'The complete idiots guide to religion'." — neotek.
"I was a little disappointed yesterday. Got 'Religion for Dummies' from the library. You know how the '...For Dummies' books usually have the bomb icon for 'Don't do this!' ? This one didn't." — Pep Boy Manny02.
"Considering all the evil that exists in the world, the fact that all of religion's condemnation is focused on expressing disapproval of two people loving each other proves just how evil religion is." — Jan deBoer.
"Religion /n./ A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the Nature of the Unknowable." — Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary, 1911.
"Religions are not revealed: they are evolved. If a religion were revealed by God, that religion would be perfect in whole and in part, and would be as perfect at the first moment of its revelation as after ten thousand years of practice. There has never been a religion which fulfills those conditions." — Robert Blatchford, "God and My Neighbor," 1903.
"Randomness is scary. I think that's why we are prone to belief in God. Theism is the ultimate conspiracy theory. It's more comforting to think that an invisible man in the sky is watching over everything and has some kind of plan, even if that plan equals a sucky life for you here and now. To think we are all at the mercy of random forces is scary indeed."
"The whole religious complexion of the modern world is due to the absence from Jerusalem of a lunatic asylum." — Havelock Ellis.
"In general, higher rates of belief in and worship of a creator correlate with higher rates of homicide, juvenile and early adult mortality, STD infection rates, teen pregnancy and abortion in the prosperous democracies." — From 'Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies' a study published in the (peer-reviewed) Journal of Society and Religion, 2008.
"When you believe in an imaginary figure that only you can see or hear, it's called a psychological problem. If you believe in an imaginary figure that even you can't see or hear, it's a religion."
"Why should I hate someone on the basis of their religion, when I can take a little time to get to know them and hate them for a myriad of real reasons." — Dennis Miller.
"History has the relation to truth that theology has to religion — i.e., none to speak of." — Lazarus Long.
"A celibate clergy is an especially good idea as it eliminates any genetic tendencies towards fanaticism." — Carl Sagan.
"Televangelists: The Pro Wrestlers of religion." — Stephen Wright.
"You have not converted a man because you have silenced him." — John, Lord Morley.
"Nuke an unborn gay whale for Jesus." — Bumper sticker.
"Convicts register their religious affiliation when they're processed into prison. And about 99.5% of the huge U.S.A. prison population consists of inmates who identified themselves as members of religious denominations." — Gene M. Kasmar.
"All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit." — Thomas Paine (1737-1809).
"Any system of religion that has anything in it that shocks the mind of a child, cannot be a true system." — Thomas Paine (1737-1809), american writer and activist.
"It seems odd that those who scoff at sun worshippers are apt to worship a vacuum."
"The best any human can do is to pick a delusion that helps him get through the day. This is why people of different religions can generally live in peace. At some level, we all suspect that other people don't believe their own religion any more than we believe ours." — Scott Adams.
"Religious wars are basically people killing each other over who has the better imaginary friend."
"Religion is a major weapon in the war against reality."
"How can you have order in a state without religion? For, when one man is dying of hunger near another who is ill of surfeit, he cannot resign himself to this difference unless there is an authority which declares 'God wills it thus.' Religion is excellent stuff for keeping common people quiet." — Napoleon Bonaparte.
"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich." — Napoleon Bonaparte.
"If I had to choose a religion, the sun as the universal giver of life would be my god." — Napoleon Bonaparte.
"Faith is a euphemism for prejudice and religion is a euphemism for superstition." — Paul Keller, American rationalist.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." — Mark Twain.
"Faith is to the human what sand is to the ostrich."
"Science and religion are in full accord but science and faith are in complete discord."
"Science and religion are not incompatible, but science and faith are."
"Religions fulfill deep-seated psychological needs for people, and if you don't get it from a specific religious doctrine, you'll get it from the kind of films I like to make. A film like The Terminator is consciously meant to give a sense of empowerment to the individual." — James Cameron, American Film, July 1991.
"Dianetics is a milestone for man comparable to his discovery of fire and superior to his invention of the wheel and the arch." — L. Ron Hubbard.
"When a man has a problem very thoroughly and can't solve it, he really has too few problems. He needs more." — L. Ron Hubbard.
"Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message." — Umberto Eco.
"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason." — Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanack, 1758.
"The first clergyman was the first rascal who met the first fool." — Voltaire.
"As long as people believe in absurdities they will continue to commit atrocities." — Voltaire.
"Fantastic doctrines (like Christianity or Islam or Marxism) require unanimity of belief. One dissenter casts doubt on the creed of millions. Thus the fear and the hate; thus the torture chamber, the iron stake, the gallows, the labor camp, the psychiatric ward." — Edward Abbey.
"In religion and politics, people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination." — Mark Twain.
"The beauty of religious mania is that it has the power to explain everything. Once God (or Satan) is accepted as the first cause of everything which happens in the mortal world, nothing is left to chance... logic can be happily tossed out the window." — Stephen King.
"Religion is a culture of faith; science is a culture of doubt." — Richard P. Feynman (1918-88).
"Faith is often the boast of the man who is too lazy to investigate." — F.M. Knowles.
"Exploring the universe through meditation is like studying human relationships through masturbation."
"Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned." — Anemones.
"I count religion but a childish toy, And hold there is no sin but ignorance." — Christopher Marlowe.
"Without the use of a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to make a parody of Fundamentalism that someone won't mistake for the real thing." — Poe's Law.
"A union of government and religion tends to destroy government and degrade religion." — Hugo Black, US Supreme Court.
"The last time we mixed religion and government people were burned at the stake." — Bumper sticker.
"Freedom is the Distance Between Church and State."
"Organized religion is like organized crime; it preys on peoples' weaknesses, generates huge profits for its operators, and is almost impossible to eradicate."
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by rulers as useful." — Seneca the Younger (4BCE-65CE).
"Every absurdity has a champion to defend it."
"With or without religion, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion." — Steven Weinberg.
"The history of saints is mainly the history of insane people." — Benito Mussolini (1883-1944).
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." — Friedrich Nietzsche.
"There is not enough love and goodness in the word for us to be permitted to give any of it away to imaginary things." — Friedrich Nietzsche.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." — George Bernard Shaw.
"Religion is to rationality as bullshit is to horsepower."
"Religions change; beer and wine remain." — Harvey Allen.
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." — Blaise Pascal (1623-1662).

[maadmax 0]

--"Dianetics is a milestone for man comparable to his discovery of fire and superior to his invention of the wheel and the arch." — L. Ron Hubbard.

[Meso 38]

Evidence, observation...

You know what I meant. Switch the first 'evidence' to 'observation'.

I was still trying to get the point across, what you said. Just ended up wording it badly. So you may replace my sentence with your last one.

[philh 0]

Lets take an exmaple of a scientific "belief". Relativity tells us theres somethign called time dilation.
This implies for example that we will observe time running slower for something in motion than at rest . But it doesnt just do that, it enables to calculate exactly how much slower it should run.
This "belief" has been tested experimentally and the thoeries predicitons have been checked to be correct to ana ccuracy of least 9 decimal places .
Care to name a religious belief that has been confirmed to 9 decimal places?
If not I think we can conclude that scientific beliefs are not in any way comparable to religious ones.

[kallend 1,623]

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Lets take an exmaple of a scientific "belief". Relativity tells us theres somethign called time dilation.
This implies for example that we will observe time running slower for something in motion than at rest . But it doesnt just do that, it enables to calculate exactly how much slower it should run.
This "belief" has been tested experimentally and the thoeries predicitons have been checked to be correct to ana ccuracy of least 9 decimal places .
Care to name a religious belief that has been confirmed to 9 decimal places?
If not I think we can conclude that scientific beliefs are not in any way comparable to religious ones.

Confirmed to 9 places - peanuts! Quantum electrodynamics has been confirmed to 13 places.

And the Bible tells us that pi = 3.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,122]

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Lets take an exmaple of a scientific "belief".

Sure, let's take global warming. I have scientist who can prove the earth will continue to get warmer and will self destruct (and I am sure they can round up some decimal points for you too) and I have scientist who can prove that will not happen.

40 years ago there were scientist who had a lot of decimal points to prove that smoking was healthy for you.

I have had scientists tell me sunshine is bad for me and I have had scientists tell me sunshine is good for me.

[philh 0]

If all scientific questions were settled there would be no need for any scientific research whatsoever. That doesnt mean all scientific questions are still open. Some have a lot more verification than others.
So the question is : where there is good verification, say in testing relativity to 9 decimal places. do you think belief in this conclusion is on a par with religious beliefs?

forgive me if i dont take the lure and turn this into a climate change debate.