How would I prove I'm leagle?

[Niki1 1]

This isn't really about the Arizona law though I am concerned about the potential for abuse. I was wondering what document do I carry that could show me to be a leagle citizen. A driver's licence, a social security card, and a voter registration card are all the government papers that I have in my wallet. Would any of these suffice if I were stopped in AZ.?

And at the risk of having 2 subjects in a thread, what about a nation wide identity card? Again, there's a lot of potential for abuse of information generated by such a thing. We apparently can't seal our borders effectively so the illeagles must be found after they are here in the country.

I don't know what the right thing to do is but I do know that something needs to be done. I'm rally opposed to knee jerk reactions and the quick answers because of the "Rule of Unintended Consequenses". I believe that some thing that is subjected to some criticle thinking for a while will have less drastic unintended consequenses.

Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossilbe before they were done.
Louis D Brandeis

Where are we going and why are we in this basket?

[Lucky... 0]

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This isn't really about the Arizona law though I am concerned about the potential for abuse. I was wondering what document do I carry that could show me to be a leagle citizen. A driver's licence, a social security card, and a voter registration card are all the government papers that I have in my wallet. Would any of these suffice if I were stopped in AZ.?

And at the risk of having 2 subjects in a thread, what about a nation wide identity card? Again, there's a lot of potential for abuse of information generated by such a thing. We apparently can't seal our borders effectively so the illeagles must be found after they are here in the country.

I don't know what the right thing to do is but I do know that something needs to be done. I'm rally opposed to knee jerk reactions and the quick answers because of the "Rule of Unintended Consequenses". I believe that some thing that is subjected to some criticle thinking for a while will have less drastic unintended consequenses.

I think a driver's lic is sufficent to qualify for zee Nazizona papers. Of course I'm white, so racist AZ laws such as 1070 don't pertain to me, just brown people.

[futuredivot 0]

Tell ya what-leave, renounce your citizenship. sneak back in, and we'll kick you back out just to be fair.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Gawain 0]

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This isn't really about the Arizona law though I am concerned about the potential for abuse. I was wondering what document do I carry that could show me to be a leagle citizen. A driver's licence, a social security card, and a voter registration card are all the government papers that I have in my wallet. Would any of these suffice if I were stopped in AZ.?

And at the risk of having 2 subjects in a thread, what about a nation wide identity card? Again, there's a lot of potential for abuse of information generated by such a thing. We apparently can't seal our borders effectively so the illeagles must be found after they are here in the country.

I don't know what the right thing to do is but I do know that something needs to be done. I'm rally opposed to knee jerk reactions and the quick answers because of the "Rule of Unintended Consequenses". I believe that some thing that is subjected to some criticle thinking for a while will have less drastic unintended consequenses.

Have you ever needed more than a license? You're a citizen right?

I must show my ID, when:

1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm sure there are more instances, but the point is, that we citizens of the USA, ARE required to prove who we are nearly every day, multiple times a day.

Now, for anyone that is a green card holder, did you know that FEDERAL law requires you to have that documentation on you at all times, and that a law enforcement officer may ask for that documentation at any time for any reason, or no reason at all.

So, stop getting in a twist over the Arizona law, it actually has more protections for civil liberties than the federal precedent.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[wmw999 2,122]

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1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm goign to be difficult, and say that in those cases, the reason that you can be asked for your license is because of the associated activity, and not just because you're present.

The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

Wendy P.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

According to the Arizona law, a driver's license should suffice, as long as it is issued by a State that requires proof of legal status (US citizen or legal immigrant) before issuing said license. I wonder how well that will work in practice, as it depends on police officers knowing the law for every State, to judge which driver's licenses meet the criteria and which do not. If you can afford the fee, a passport card would be your best bet if you want to be sure to avoid hassles.

On your other point about the National Identity Card, I've long said that something of that nature is required if we are to have any hope of being able to sort out the illegals from citizens and legitimate immigrants. The tin foil hat crowd, however, seems to think such an ID will allow Obama et al to read their nefarious thoughts or something. Without reliable ID, I guess the police will just have to use their "illegal-dar" to magically discern illegals from legals (but no racial profiling allowed!).

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Tell ya what-leave, renounce your citizenship. sneak back in, and we'll kick you back out just to be fair.

Thanks for your insightful and helpful response. Is that the new conservative position on the matter?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Andy9o8 0]

Are you a non-US citizen, or Hispanic, and/or look Hispanic, and/or have a Spanish name, and/or speak English with an accent? If not, then as a practical matter I don't see the issue arising, or being a big deal. If you are Hispanic, especially if you have some ethnic Spanish inflection in your accent (some US-born & raised Chicanos do), then there might be more risk of getting hassled.

Frankly, with all the public backlash that's out there in the past few weeks over the new law, as well as the Federal lawsuit that's just been filed, I'd now expect (or at least hope) that Arizona cops and their supervisors have been sensitized to try to avoid racial profiling.

Of course, if you're one of those slippery Canadians, none of this applies, and you better have your shit together, boy.

[Gawain 0]

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1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm goign to be difficult, and say that in those cases, the reason that you can be asked for your license is because of the associated activity, and not just because you're present.

The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

Wendy P.

Please point out Wendy where you've been asked for your "papers" for just being around. I will also gather from your inference that you have not actually read the Arizona law, and can tell you that there is no such provision to allow such an event to happen.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Have you ever needed more than a license? You're a citizen right?

I must show my ID, when:

1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm sure there are more instances, but the point is, that we citizens of the USA, ARE required to prove who we are nearly every day, multiple times a day.

How many of those require you to prove US citizenship or legal immigration status? #4 applies with regard to a passport, but the driver's license varies according to the State. I've never been asked to prove citizenship to donate blood, make a credit card purchase, or any of those other things on your list. I think most Americans would get very pissed off if they had to prove their legal status every time they made a credit or debit card purchase.

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Now, for anyone that is a green card holder, did you know that FEDERAL law requires you to have that documentation on you at all times, and that a law enforcement officer may ask for that documentation at any time for any reason, or no reason at all.

True enough. Should citizens be subject to the same rule?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[BIGUN 1,053]

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could show me to be a leagle citizen. A driver's licence,

Ahhh, never mind.

Nobody has time to listen; because they're desperately chasing the need of being heard.

[futuredivot 0]

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Tell ya what-leave, renounce your citizenship. sneak back in, and we'll kick you back out just to be fair.

Thanks for your insightful and helpful response. Is that the new conservative position on the matter?

Don

Nope, my personal one-thanks for asking. Your input really does mean the world to me

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Andy9o8 0]

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Please point out Wendy where you've been asked for your "papers" for just being around. I will also gather from your inference that you have not actually read the Arizona law, and can tell you that there is no such provision to allow such an event to happen.

You're ignoring the criticism of the law that I and several others posted in other threads a couple of weeks ago. And in a nutshell, that criticism is that the practical effect of that law will be that police will fabricate bullshit excuses (which are provided by law) as a pretext for being able to demand proof of citizenship from people of Hispanic appearance.

I'm not going to re-live that debate all over again, as I'm not all that into deja vu. You know the threads. It's in there.

[Gawain 0]

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Have you ever needed more than a license? You're a citizen right?

I must show my ID, when:

1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm sure there are more instances, but the point is, that we citizens of the USA, ARE required to prove who we are nearly every day, multiple times a day.

How many of those require you to prove US citizenship or legal immigration status? #4 applies with regard to a passport, but the driver's license varies according to the State. I've never been asked to prove citizenship to donate blood, make a credit card purchase, or any of those other things on your list. I think most Americans would get very pissed off if they had to prove their legal status every time they made a credit or debit card purchase.

The point being that we have to prove some type of "legal" standing every day. At the bank, at the liquor store, etc. Citizenship is immaterial to the equation. If you have a valid driver's license and are in a legal contact situation with a law enforcement agent, there is little-to-no reasonable suspicion to question identity, status, etc.

There is one time in my life, back in like 1990 or something where some friends and I were horsing around and the neighbors called the police (we were "bumper sledding" on snowy roads in Massachusetts). The cop asked for my ID. I told him I didn't have it on my, so he asked for my name, SSN, and address. He ran a check on me via the radio right there. That is certainly a situation where he had reasonable cause to double-check my identity. He didn't do so with my friends who had their licenses on them.

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Now, for anyone that is a green card holder, did you know that FEDERAL law requires you to have that documentation on you at all times, and that a law enforcement officer may ask for that documentation at any time for any reason, or no reason at all.

True enough. Should citizens be subject to the same rule?

No, and we're not subject to that rule. There are privileges inherent to being a citizen. Too bad so many of us take it for granted. For those that earn their citizenship, they know pretty damn well to make it known their status. Any seasoned cop will know how to manage. ...walks like a duck...

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[pirana 0]

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could show me to be a leagle citizen. A driver's licence,

Ahhh, never mind.

Oh, come on, give it to us.

Did it involve Beagle?

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[futuredivot 0]

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I'm goign to be difficult, and say that in those cases, the reason that you can be asked for your license is because of the associated activity, and not just because you're present.

The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

Which means you don't have a problem with the AZ law.

You are only as strong as the prey you devour

[Gawain 0]

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Please point out Wendy where you've been asked for your "papers" for just being around. I will also gather from your inference that you have not actually read the Arizona law, and can tell you that there is no such provision to allow such an event to happen.

You're ignoring the criticism of the law that I and several others posted in other threads a couple of weeks ago. And in a nutshell, that criticism is that the practical effect of that law will be that police will fabricate bullshit excuses (which are provided by law) as a pretext for being able to demand proof of citizenship from people of Hispanic appearance.

I'm not going to re-live that debate all over again, as I'm not all that into deja vu. You know the threads. It's in there.

I won't rehash it here either, but those "what ifs"...and I think there's enough scrutiny on this that the LEO are going to be pretty sensitive to the issue, even though they have no legal reason to do so.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[rehmwa 2]

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Did it involve Beagle?

or a low flying eagle?

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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The point being that we have to prove some type of "legal" standing every day. At the bank, at the liquor store, etc. Citizenship is immaterial to the equation.

All true enough. However Niki1 asked "I was wondering what document do I carry that could show me to be a leagle citizen." Since that was in the initial post of the thread, I assumed that was the issue we were discussing. I just can't seem to get the hang of this thread drift "make up your own question and answer it" thing.

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[Andy9o8 0]

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Did it involve Beagle?

or a low flying eagle?

Be humble, guys. You ain't so reagle.

[GeorgiaDon 340]

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Did it involve Beagle?

or a low flying eagle?

Wouldn't "l'eagle" be a French eagle?

Don

_____________________________________
Tolerance is the cost we must pay for our adventure in liberty. (Dworkin, 1996)
“Education is not filling a bucket, but lighting a fire.” (Yeats)

[christelsabine 1]

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Did it involve Beagle?

or a low flying eagle?

When the last eagle flies ......

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[skyrider 0]

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1. Pulled over by the police.
2. Sometimes when making purchases on my department store credit card.
3. When filling out a credit card or loan application.
4. When applying for or renewing a driver's license or passport.
5. When applying for any kind of insurance.
6. When filling out college applications.
7. When donating blood.
8. When obtaining certain prescription drugs.
9. When making some debit purchases, especially if I'm out of state.
10. When collecting a boarding pass for airline or train travel.

I'm goign to be difficult, and say that in those cases, the reason that you can be asked for your license is because of the associated activity, and not just because you're present.

The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

Wendy P.

Which is STILL not going to happen! they simply want to enforce exsisting laws...The Uproar over finally enforcing laws is rediculous!

[rhaig 0]

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The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

Wendy P.

I believe that has been shown to not be the case regarding the AZ law. (multiple times actually, here on this forum even)

--
Rob

[Andy9o8 0]

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The difference comes when one can be asked for papers while walking down the street. And that is a change from what I'm used to in the US.

I believe that has been shown to not be the case regarding the AZ law. (multiple times actually, here on this forum even)

Wrong; you're doing the same thing Gawain did that I responded to. You're really trying to force a re-hash of the p[rior threads.

Anyhow, the law says that "where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who AND is unlawfully present in the United States" the police "shall" (not "may", but "shall" - i.e., they are required) to "determine the immigration status of a person". The law also allows Arizona citizens to sue for violations of the law, which means that police are "motivated" by the threat of getting sued if they have a chance to check out a suspected illegal alien but fail to do so.

This, in turn, means that the practical effect of the law is that when AZ police notice someone "looking illegal", i.e., Mexican features, speaking Spanish, maybe dressed in laborer's clothing, they will fabricate a pretext for going up to then and engaging them. They will then, based on this contact, "develop the reasonable suspicion" that the person is illegal, and ask them for ID/proof, etc.

So the practical effect is that, yes, people are more likely to be stopped while doing nothing more than walking down the street.

See the previous threads for further discussion.