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rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteI'm not going into stats here,
certainly we would not want to base anything on facts......
Bottom line. More Mexicans are in jail because more Mexicans are in the country. Less 'white Canadians' are in jail because less 'white Canadians' are in the country.
Proportionately, the numbers probably work out pretty damn close I expect.
The CONSTITUTION of this country (so staunchly supported by so many right-wingers) does not allow us to discriminate in the ways of this Arizona law, simply by the way people look.
And that will mostly likely be challenged in court and struck down (eventually)
If you want all the illegals out of this country, then you better start getting ready to pay 5.99/lb for fruit and vegetables, because the 'white guys' aren't going to pick that stuff for less than a $15-20/hour union job
You are right
You are not basing anything on facts
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
So read it and show us all where this law allows profiling????
Go ahead, read it. It is only 16 pages. You can do better than out great AG
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Gawain 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteI'm not going into stats here,
certainly we would not want to base anything on facts......
Bottom line. More Mexicans are in jail because more Mexicans are in the country. Less 'white Canadians' are in jail because less 'white Canadians' are in the country.
Proportionately, the numbers probably work out pretty damn close I expect.
The CONSTITUTION of this country (so staunchly supported by so many right-wingers) does not allow us to discriminate in the ways of this Arizona law, simply by the way people look.
And that will mostly likely be challenged in court and struck down (eventually)
If you want all the illegals out of this country, then you better start getting ready to pay 5.99/lb for fruit and vegetables, because the 'white guys' aren't going to pick that stuff for less than a $15-20/hour union job
You are right
You are not basing anything on facts
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
So read it and show us all where this law allows profiling????
Go ahead, read it. It is only 16 pages. You can do better than out great AG
Now we're in the meat and potatoes!
Here's a link to the signed text of the law, from the same legislative site, but I couldn't find a download for it. I do know that it's different than the "Senate Engrossed" version you noted. It has the following references:
Section 1, B: A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.
Section 7, B: The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin.
Section 8, B: The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin.
Text found here: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2R/laws/0113.htm
Governor Brewer's Executive Order 2010-09 adds more iron to the glove as it pertains to possible profiling. I tried to attach the scan, and break it into two separate pages, but the files were still too big. Here's a link from the LA Time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/05/full-text-arizona-illegal-immigration-law-jan-brewer.html
The relevant point is on page two of the EO:
QuoteNOW THEREFORE, I Janice K. Brewer, Governor of the State of Arizona...hereby order and direct as follows:
...
2. The course training established by the Board shall provide statewide and uniform practices to assure that law enforcement officials and agencies are implementing Senate Bill 1070 in a manner that is consistent with federal laws regarding immigration, protects the civil rights of all persons and respects the privileges and immunities of United States citizens.
3. The course training established by the Board shall provide clear guidance to law enforcement officials regarding what constitutes reasonable suspicion, and shall make clear that an individual's race, color or national origin alone cannot be grounds for reasonable suspicion to believe any law has been violated.
So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!
turtlespeed 212
QuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
So the time you invested looking that up and posting it here could have been spent looking up the numbers you want to disprove. Funny thing is, I'll bet you did look some up, and just want him to post the site so you can claim some sort of bias publishing and discredit the source because it wasn't published on the site s you like.
I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun
mnealtx 0
QuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
You've taught me well, Perfesser "Do your own homework". You should be proud!
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
People I have a solution to the problem of Illegal Immigration from Mexico,,,,as well as how to fix Mexico's Drug Gang Violence.
We should invade Mexico with Military troops and turn the whole damn place into the NEW STATE OF MEXICO and just make them ALL US CITIZENS.... There you go no more racial profiling!!!! 
SONIC BEEF #1 BASE 708, NC BASE 3
SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI
SLI,IADI,AFFI.TIE.FAA Rigger, Single & Multi Commercial Pilot,CFI, CFII, MEI
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI'm not going into stats here,
certainly we would not want to base anything on facts......
Bottom line. More Mexicans are in jail because more Mexicans are in the country. Less 'white Canadians' are in jail because less 'white Canadians' are in the country.
Proportionately, the numbers probably work out pretty damn close I expect.
The CONSTITUTION of this country (so staunchly supported by so many right-wingers) does not allow us to discriminate in the ways of this Arizona law, simply by the way people look.
And that will mostly likely be challenged in court and struck down (eventually)
If you want all the illegals out of this country, then you better start getting ready to pay 5.99/lb for fruit and vegetables, because the 'white guys' aren't going to pick that stuff for less than a $15-20/hour union job
You are right
You are not basing anything on facts
http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf
So read it and show us all where this law allows profiling????
Go ahead, read it. It is only 16 pages. You can do better than out great AG
Now we're in the meat and potatoes!
Here's a link to the signed text of the law, from the same legislative site, but I couldn't find a download for it. I do know that it's different than the "Senate Engrossed" version you noted. It has the following references:
Section 1, B: A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIAL OR AGENCY OF THIS STATE OR A COUNTY, CITY, TOWN OR OTHER POLITICAL SUBDIVISION OF THIS STATE MAY NOT SOLELY CONSIDER RACE, COLOR OR NATIONAL ORIGIN IN IMPLEMENTING THE REQUIREMENTS OF THIS SUBSECTION EXCEPT TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY THE UNITED STATES OR ARIZONA CONSTITUTION.
Section 7, B: The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin.
Section 8, B: The attorney general or county attorney shall not investigate complaints that are based solely on race, color or national origin.
Text found here: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/legtext/49leg/2R/laws/0113.htm
Governor Brewer's Executive Order 2010-09 adds more iron to the glove as it pertains to possible profiling. I tried to attach the scan, and break it into two separate pages, but the files were still too big. Here's a link from the LA Time:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2010/05/full-text-arizona-illegal-immigration-law-jan-brewer.html
The relevant point is on page two of the EO:QuoteNOW THEREFORE, I Janice K. Brewer, Governor of the State of Arizona...hereby order and direct as follows:
...
2. The course training established by the Board shall provide statewide and uniform practices to assure that law enforcement officials and agencies are implementing Senate Bill 1070 in a manner that is consistent with federal laws regarding immigration, protects the civil rights of all persons and respects the privileges and immunities of United States citizens.
3. The course training established by the Board shall provide clear guidance to law enforcement officials regarding what constitutes reasonable suspicion, and shall make clear that an individual's race, color or national origin alone cannot be grounds for reasonable suspicion to believe any law has been violated.
Facts are a funny thing huh
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
So the time you invested looking that up and posting it here could have been spent looking up the numbers you want to disprove. Funny thing is, I'll bet you did look some up, and just want him to post the site so you can claim some sort of bias publishing and discredit the source because it wasn't published on the site s you like.
I did, and it was published on a site that ADMITS it is anti immigration. If they admit their own bias, who are you to disagree?
PS, nice of you to worry about my use of my own time - thanks so much for caring.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
You've taught me well, Perfesser "Do your own homework". You should be proud!
Apples and oranges.
People should indeed do their own homework.
I notice my posts that you linked were not requests to provide confirmation of an uncited claim like the Captain's, but were aimed at lazy people like you who couldn't be bothered to look information up for themselves.
Example: You asked "How many of those murders were done by US citizens and how many by illegals?" Now why should I or anyone else be obliged to look that up for you?
If you want information, find it for yourself. If you want to post data to make a claim, tell us the source if you want us to believe it.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mnealtx 0
QuoteTry harder.
Do your own homework.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
So the time you invested looking that up and posting it here could have been spent looking up the numbers you want to disprove. Funny thing is, I'll bet you did look some up, and just want him to post the site so you can claim some sort of bias publishing and discredit the source because it wasn't published on the site s you like.
I did, and it was published on a site that ADMITS it is anti immigration. If they admit their own bias, who are you to disagree?
PS, nice of you to worry about my use of my own time - thanks so much for caring.
So, your position is that a site that supports a law, that helps law enforcement do something that is against the law, is biased??
Go figure
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
So the time you invested looking that up and posting it here could have been spent looking up the numbers you want to disprove. Funny thing is, I'll bet you did look some up, and just want him to post the site so you can claim some sort of bias publishing and discredit the source because it wasn't published on the site s you like.
I did, and it was published on a site that ADMITS it is anti immigration. If they admit their own bias, who are you to disagree?
PS, nice of you to worry about my use of my own time - thanks so much for caring.
So, your position is that a site that supports a law, that helps law enforcement do something that is against the law, is biased??
Go figure
Having reading problems again?
" If they admit their own bias, who are you to disagree?"
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteI can just imagine mnealtx letting me or quade or billvon get away with a lame excuse like that for quoting data with no source cited.
Question for the class - which physics professor here is fond of saying 'do your own homework' or similar?
Anyone? Bueller? Bueller? Anyone?
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3845217#3845217
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3819811#3819811
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3818240#3818240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3815959#3815959
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3813240#3813240
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3791194#3791194
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3731581#3731581
But when others ask him for a cite we get
www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3681244#3681244
So the time you invested looking that up and posting it here could have been spent looking up the numbers you want to disprove. Funny thing is, I'll bet you did look some up, and just want him to post the site so you can claim some sort of bias publishing and discredit the source because it wasn't published on the site s you like.
I did, and it was published on a site that ADMITS it is anti immigration. If they admit their own bias, who are you to disagree?
PS, nice of you to worry about my use of my own time - thanks so much for caring.
So, your position is that a site that supports a law, that helps law enforcement do something that is against the law, is biased??
Go figure
Having reading problems again?
" If they admit their own bias, who are you to disagree?"
Nope, not me with the problems
and
I dont hold much hope out for you to figure it out either
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
QuoteQuoteQuote$10B? That is it? when we are spending $3,500B+ in the 2009 federal budget? 0.28% of the federal budget?
Ok then you are right, they cost us $10B/year. But I rest my case. Given what we go through in this country every year on everything else, this money is not even worth chasing down.
So this is "it doesn't cost the U.S. much as far as the overall budget is concerned so we should just ignore the problem and not enforce the laws".
Gottcha.
You assume those numbers are correct.
Incorrect. I made no assumption about the numbers. My comment was only direct at this statement.
QuoteGiven what we go through in this country every year on everything else, this money is not even worth chasing down.
To which I replied.
QuoteSo this is "it doesn't cost the U.S. much as far as the overall budget is concerned so we should just ignore the problem and not enforce the laws".
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuote$10B? That is it? when we are spending $3,500B+ in the 2009 federal budget? 0.28% of the federal budget?
Ok then you are right, they cost us $10B/year. But I rest my case. Given what we go through in this country every year on everything else, this money is not even worth chasing down.
So this is "it doesn't cost the U.S. much as far as the overall budget is concerned so we should just ignore the problem and not enforce the laws".
Gottcha.
You assume those numbers are correct.
Incorrect. I made no assumption about the numbers. My comment was only direct at this statement.
Of course you did, or you woudn't have needed your qualifier.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote$10B? That is it? when we are spending $3,500B+ in the 2009 federal budget? 0.28% of the federal budget?
Ok then you are right, they cost us $10B/year. But I rest my case. Given what we go through in this country every year on everything else, this money is not even worth chasing down.
So this is "it doesn't cost the U.S. much as far as the overall budget is concerned so we should just ignore the problem and not enforce the laws".
Gottcha.
You assume those numbers are correct.
Incorrect. I made no assumption about the numbers. My comment was only direct at this statement.
Of course you did, or you woudn't have needed your qualifier.
Pathetic. Nothing new.
kallend 1,623
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuote$10B? That is it? when we are spending $3,500B+ in the 2009 federal budget? 0.28% of the federal budget?
Ok then you are right, they cost us $10B/year. But I rest my case. Given what we go through in this country every year on everything else, this money is not even worth chasing down.
So this is "it doesn't cost the U.S. much as far as the overall budget is concerned so we should just ignore the problem and not enforce the laws".
Gottcha.
You assume those numbers are correct.
Incorrect. I made no assumption about the numbers. My comment was only direct at this statement.
Of course you did, or you woudn't have needed your qualifier.
Pathetic. Nothing new.
Lame weaseling. If his (disputed) numbers had been 100x higher, or showed a profit for the US, you wouldn't have written the same thing at all.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Here it is again:
Sure, cause you're white. So your fellow Mexican-American born Americans s/b subject to constant harrassment w/o giving any PC? So that constitutional thing is just not important? 4th, 14th. I see, the conservatives selectively wave the US COnst around.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with what Spock said; "the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sorry, you stepped directly in it this time.
What you've definded is Utilitarianism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
Utilitarian has been assigned to Bentham http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Bentham an English jurist, philosopher, and legal and social reformer.
He was a basic old school liberal socialist and you've just aligned with him, welcome on board. See, America was allegedly, reportedly founded upon teh principles of INDIVIDUAL LIBERTIES AND RIGHTS, whereas Utilutarianism doesn't care about that, they care about the whole and a few losing rights so teh masses can emmerge is just fine with Utilitarianism. In the American model, the system was designed so that individuals are guaranteed rights, thus the whole are collectively guaranteed rights. In systems that subscribe to Utilitarianism, the indivuals aren't really worried about so much, it's about the survival of the mass; if a few get dropped along the way, that's ok, the whole needs to survive and you've just agreed with that and with Bentham the Socialist.
Here's a real good encyclopedic-type definition: http://www.urbandictionary.com/...?term=Utilitarianism
A collectivist moral philosophy which states that the moral worth of an action is directly dependant upon how much pleasure or good that action brings upon others. It is the belief in the most good for the most people. Under this moral philosophy the person exists solely to serve the community. According to Utilitarianism the person has no value, only the people do.
Communism is the philosophy of Utilitarianism put into practice as a socio-economic means of organizing society.
So guess what? You've aligned yourself with Bentham the liberal Socialist as well COMMUNIST thinking, as general Communism follows Utilitarianism. Congratulations.
So, is the new AZ Law, 1070 a communist-based law? Yes of course, you said so yourself w/o knowing.
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