Waterboard the Underwear Bomber?

[champu 1]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

[nerdgirl 0]

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I'm Kind of surprised, there are more bleeding heart libs here than I thought! It is split right down the center with 10 votes each, plus one stoner!

Based on previous surveys, Speakers Corner has more conservative-leaning than liberal-leaning respondents (by ~ one-third across 4 surveys … the only one close to equal, altho’ still self-identified Republican/consevative-leaning majority, was this one).

The results of Andy’s poll, which as I write show 30 folks voting yes (42%) and 38 folks voting no (53%), suggests to me is that there are quite a few conservatives, or non-“bleeding heart libs,” voting no.

I'm not sure how you define non-liberals or conservatives, there have, however, been a number of individual conservatives and conservative-identified organizations who have opposed torture, including waterboarding and other euphemisms for torture. E.g.,

The Conservative Case Against Torture

5 Reasons Torture Is Always Wrong: And why there should be no exceptions

Stand Up and Be Counted

Torture and moral bankruptcy

More on Torture

On Bush's torture policies

Opposition to torture has long been a uniting, non-partisan issue across America. It's been one of the many things that makes America great! It's a key part of President Reagan’s invocation John Winthrop’s vision for America to be that “shining city upon a hill.”

/Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[champu 1]

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It occurs to me that maybe AQ is deliberately using incompetent bumblers.

The shoe bomber, had he succeeded, would probably have left a mystery that would never be solved. As it is, by using a bumbling idiot, AQ has managed to tie up every commercial airport in the country with shoe removal and X-ray, and irritate every air traveler.

The 2006 "liquid bombers" likewise were bumblers. Had they blown up the 10 jets, we would also have a mystery on our hands. As it is, by using bumbling idiots, AQ has added to the hassles of every commercial air traveler who wants to take a tube of toothpaste with her.

Now we have a bumbling idiot "underwear bomber" who only manages to set his own bollocks on fire. Had he succeeded, he would probably have left a mystery that would never be solved. As it is, by using a bumbling idiot, AQ will succeed in tying up every commercial airport in the country with who knows what extra security measures, full body scans, and irritate every air traveler even more.

So by sacrificing a handful of morons, AQ has really succeeded in screwing us over in a big way.

This is actually a pretty interesting theory. Although I'm not sure I'd call the 2006 Trans-Atlantic Plot "bumbling." Luckily we never got to see if they could actually pull it off, but there were a couple dozen people involved, and the coordination looked to be at least minor-league (compared to 9/11's "major-league" and some of these other guys' "drunken weekend softball with friends")

The one-off people caught appear to be a mix of mid-level planners, useful idiots, and zombies. Whether or not anyone they may have worked with intended for them to fail is hard to say, but regardless, I doubt they know very much.

[SpeedRacer 1]

It's an interesting theory, but I doubt that if the explosion had succeeded, that it would be a strange mystery as to what happened. There would probably be some sort of last second transmission. Also it would depend on where the plane was in flight. In this case it was near its destination, so there might well be recoverable wreckage.

But even if there weren't, we'd sure as hell notice the disappearance of all those people & the plane. And Al Quaeda would pop up with a message claiming responsiblity just as they did in this case.

Speed Racer
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[Amazon 7]

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It's an interesting theory, but I doubt that if the explosion had succeeded, that it would be a strange mystery as to what happened. There would probably be some sort of last second transmission. Also it would depend on where the plane was in flight. In this case it was near its destination, so there might well be recoverable wreckage.

But even if there weren't, we'd sure as hell notice the disappearance of all those people & the plane. And Al Quaeda would pop up with a message claiming responsiblity just as they did in this case.

In instances like this.. AQ wins with either outcome. they let us know they are still out there, and eventually they will have some success and further impact us all thru this crap.

These people need to be hunted down wherever they are by any means neccessary, and if you support them and stand in the way.. you need to get a free trip to Allah too.

[rushmc 18]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

Would it be considered a personal attack if I have an burning desire to waterboard SEVERAL members of Speakers Corner.... as a learning experience mind you... to show them just how much fun it is to waterboard someone??? Doing it to someone can be a lot of fun for some people... recieving it.. I can assure you... is not fun... even for those who might be inclined towards severe masochism.

[rushmc 18]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

Would it be considered a personal attack if I have an burning desire to waterboard SEVERAL members of Speakers Corner.... as a learning experience mind you... to show them just how much fun it is to waterboard someone??? Doing it to someone can be a lot of fun for some people... recieving it.. I can assure you... is not fun... even for those who might be inclined towards severe masochism.

Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

Would it be considered a personal attack if I have an burning desire to waterboard SEVERAL members of Speakers Corner.... as a learning experience mind you... to show them just how much fun it is to waterboard someone??? Doing it to someone can be a lot of fun for some people... recieving it.. I can assure you... is not fun... even for those who might be inclined towards severe masochism.

Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

I bet I could get him to change his mind.... I would LOVE to demonstrate it to ANYONE who does not believe its torture. I think I could even ENJOY it immensly if I could have DICKHEAD Cheney for just one hour

I bet I could have you thinking as a liberal which is something you clearly despise, in not too many sessions

[rushmc 18]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

Would it be considered a personal attack if I have an burning desire to waterboard SEVERAL members of Speakers Corner.... as a learning experience mind you... to show them just how much fun it is to waterboard someone??? Doing it to someone can be a lot of fun for some people... recieving it.. I can assure you... is not fun... even for those who might be inclined towards severe masochism.

Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

I bet I could get him to change his mind.... I would LOVE to demonstrate it to ANYONE who does not believe its torture.

I bet I could have you thinking as a liberal which is something you clearly despise, in not too many sessions

You seem to be such a nice compasionate person

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[Amazon 7]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

Would it be considered a personal attack if I have an burning desire to waterboard SEVERAL members of Speakers Corner.... as a learning experience mind you... to show them just how much fun it is to waterboard someone??? Doing it to someone can be a lot of fun for some people... recieving it.. I can assure you... is not fun... even for those who might be inclined towards severe masochism.

Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

I bet I could get him to change his mind.... I would LOVE to demonstrate it to ANYONE who does not believe its torture.

I bet I could have you thinking as a liberal which is something you clearly despise, in not too many sessions

You seem to be such a nice compasionate person

Dont fucking count on it.. especially to those who do not deserve any compassion.

[rushmc 18]

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And you are simply feelling again instead of thinking

Rushmc, that is what we think YOU'RE doing. Feeling instead of thinking.

Sorry you "feel" that way

If you would take the time to "think" about it,
you would see your error

Redefining words and labels around what you and other people are doing actually has a lot in common with waterboarding itself. Both are incredibly irritating in the short term, excessive practice over extended duration can have lasting psychological impacts, and at the end of the day you walk away having heard what you wanted to hear even though it may not accurately reflect reality.

Please stop torturing speakers corner.

as to the intent point my friend
you caused your own torture here

Would it be considered a personal attack if I have an burning desire to waterboard SEVERAL members of Speakers Corner.... as a learning experience mind you... to show them just how much fun it is to waterboard someone??? Doing it to someone can be a lot of fun for some people... recieving it.. I can assure you... is not fun... even for those who might be inclined towards severe masochism.

Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

I bet I could get him to change his mind.... I would LOVE to demonstrate it to ANYONE who does not believe its torture.

I bet I could have you thinking as a liberal which is something you clearly despise, in not too many sessions

You seem to be such a nice compasionate person

Dont fucking count on it.. especially to those who do not deserve any compassion.

Ya, like those terrorist who did kill Americans that we used that none torture tech on huh

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SpeedRacer 1]

something happened to the last half of that sentence.

Speed Racer
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[Amazon 7]

Again... there are better methods of gettin information..

IF any of the clowns who advocate its usage would realize that we might acutally get valid intel.

My point is its use is not to get information but its a great excuse that SADISTS use... to get some twisted payback... to claim otherwise belies the use of torture around the world. Most of the prolific torturers do not use their techniques to get information... they use it because they get off on it.... for some of them its the way they get their jollies.

I guess it must be a driving conservative desire since so many conservatives seem to get off on it.

[rushmc 18]

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Again... there are better methods of gettin information..

IF any of the clowns who advocate its usage would realize that we might acutally get valid intel.

My point is its use is not to get information but its a great excuse that SADISTS use... to get some twisted payback... to claim otherwise belies the use of torture around the world. Most of the prolific torturers do not use their techniques to get information... they use it because they get off on it.... for some of them its the way they get their jollies.

I guess it must be a driving conservative desire since so many conservatives seem to get off on it.

Well at least this post of your opinion was worth reading until the last sentense but I know you just cant help yourself

As for what works and what doesnt? I will let the experts decide that. And those experts do not include you or anybody on this site OR Obama.

But, you and those making this tactic criminal now is the only criminal thing going on

"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln

[SpeedRacer 1]

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As for what works and what doesnt? I will let the experts decide that.

We agree on something.

Speed Racer
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[kallend 1,623]

[reply
As for what works and what doesnt? I will let the experts decide that.

[Amazon 7]

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Again... there are better methods of gettin information..

IF any of the clowns who advocate its usage would realize that we might acutally get valid intel.

My point is its use is not to get information but its a great excuse that SADISTS use... to get some twisted payback... to claim otherwise belies the use of torture around the world. Most of the prolific torturers do not use their techniques to get information... they use it because they get off on it.... for some of them its the way they get their jollies.

I guess it must be a driving conservative desire since so many conservatives seem to get off on it.

Well at least this post of your opinion was worth reading until the last sentense but I know you just cant help yourself

As for what works and what doesnt? I will let the experts decide that. And those experts do not include you or anybody on this site OR Obama.

But, you and those making this tactic criminal now is the only criminal thing going on

We can use our laws to bury him for the rest of his life in our courts with our laws. You and others would sink to international war crimes to support a bunch of sadists.
There is no value add to your tactics or to theirs.

[kallend 1,623]

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Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

Marc

Repeatedly misrepresenting what Holder said is not getting you anywhere. We can all read it for ourselves. You are just making yourself look foolish.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[champu 1]

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Dosent change what Holder says now does it?

Eric Holder's testimony to the House Judiciary Committee this spring is a good example of why people need always be willing to be critical of others that are trying to argue on behalf of a viewpoint they share. On several occasions I've ragged on people in this forum for making terrible / misguided arguments in favor of things I agree with.

There's at least a couple problems with bad arguments. First, getting partially right answers for the wrong reasons is non-repeatable, and leads to things like Phlogiston. Second, in today's polarized political environment it's just as effective to parade around a terrible counter-point as it is to make a good point of your own. And if the point being promoted this way is wrong, then it's a hell of a lot easier too.

I'm not going to defend what Eric Holder said because I don't have to.

Whether there is intent to cause lasting physical harm is immaterial. Torture is as much or more a psychological affair than a physical one. SERE training is exactly that: training. Entrants may not know what they're in for, but they know they're training. It's ridiculous to think that a particular technique used in these two different circumstances will have the same psychological impact and thus automatically carry the same designation as either torture or non-torture.

[jakee 1,255]

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I have answered your questions. what is it you do not think I have answered??

Okaaay. I'll repeat it again. What exactly is it you think he said about waterboarding not being torture? What is it he said that means waterboarding terrorist suspects is not torture?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,400]

> Constitutional rights don't apply to the underwear bomber regardless
>of McVeigh.

They apply to both, actually, since they are both in the US. You don't get to ignore the constitution just because you're scared.

[ridestrong 1]

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I guess it must be a driving conservative desire since so many conservatives seem to get off on it.

Completely asinine.

*I am not afraid of dying... I am afraid of missing life.*
----Disclaimer: I don't know shit about skydiving.----

[Amazon 7]

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I guess it must be a driving conservative desire since so many conservatives seem to get off on it.

Completely asinine.

What's wrong.. does the truth hurt there dude??? It sure seems the only people that seem to think its a good idea are certainly all the usual rePUBIClowns... you know.. the ones who have never served in the military. the only thing they have ever served is themselves.... but certainly seem to be awful rah rah rah for war ( as long as it is someone else that has to go)